Reduced black powder load in 45/90?

[Nardoo]

Hi Guys,

I intend to buy an Italian Sharps 45/90 for black powder cartridge. I already have a 45/70 and it will just be easier to have a different lot of brass so I do not get things mixed up.

I want to use it for longer range shooting but much of the shooting at our club is at very short (muzzle loader) range so I would like to be able to shoot reduced black powder loads too. I have almost no experience in this but know I cannot have air space in the case.

Can I load, say 55gns of FF, and fill up the case with some kind of wad or filler? Am I being totally unrealistic in this? Should I just go for another 45/70 and hope I don't accidently slip one of the full power loads for my Ruger #1 in?

Nardoo

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Filler will work; I use "Polenta" (corn meal) as filler in my 577/450 with great success.
In my 45/90, I only get 75gn Wano FFG behind a 540gn bullet which has a long bearing body. This load has proven very accurate out to 1000yds.

You may notice in the second pic, a series of white nylon compression plugs that are used to carefully compress the powder column a predetermined depth for each cast boolit style.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/PGTmold.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/BPCRtools.jpg

[shooter575]

At the shorter ranges I have had good luck with Cream of wheat [COW] as a filler.
I use a cheep Lee measure to meter the COW.No need to use a drop tube or compression die.Just powder/cow and a light compress with the boolet while seating.I have gone down to 35 gr ff in the 45-70 and 15 gr fff with the 44-40 with good results.

[Old Ironsights]

What they said.

I don't have a "big" BP gun, but I do load BP in my .38/.357 catsneeze loads.

5gr BP or sub and 10-12gr CoW fills the case (to 10% compression) nicely.

[Bad Flynch]

>I already have a 45/70 and it will just be easier to have a different lot of brass so I do not get things mixed up.<

The .45-90 is overkill for anything short of, say, 500 yards. I own one, a current Win Hi-Wall, and it shoots just fine, but the .45-70 was used out to 1200 yards regularly and will be easier to load down because of its reduced case capacity.

Why not just use Remington brass for one purpose and Winchester brass for the other. Or, maybe, use 350 grain bullets out to 300 yards, 405 grain bullets out to 500 yards, and 500 grain bullets out to 1000? They really do not look alike when loaded.

The .45-90 (a Winchester name, by the way) was introduced by the Army for use in Trapdoors as the .45-82 and .45-85 and was for long range (1000 and 1000+) yards, where the .45-70 began to fail. Seems to me it was introduced for our international shooting team for use at Bisley or What-Cheer, or one of the other ranges in Britain like Wimbledon. Sharps had a similar case which, in Sharps nomenclature was the .45-2&4/10 inch. Winchester introduced it later, in lever action express loadings, as the .45-90 with a 350 grain bullet. There may have been some very slight differences in the cases as produced by the Army, Winchester, and Sharps, but not enuff to make any difference.

.45-70 is the #1 choice and a whole lot easier on the shoulder, too.

[wills]

Thick wads to occupy space perhaps?
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(hnaasj45quk10b3ivozy4n2m))/categories/tableList.aspx?catID=2&subID=37&styleID=123

[Dale53]

Pat and Spence Wolf wrote THE book on the Trap Door Springfield. It also has MUCH of interest to the Black Powder Cartridge Shooter (diagrams of simple tooling to make a compression die for YOUR rifle) covers reduced loads, etc. I, personally, found MUCH inside that was VERY useful for other than just the Trapdoor. Pat Spence is still alive and has remarried since her husband, Spence, died many years ago. Pat is a wonderful lady and I suggest that you buy the book directly from her. She also sells dies, special tools and compression dies that are very useful and reasonably priced.

I consider that anyone who wants to shoot black powder cartridge rifles will be ill served if they DON'T buy both Wolf's book and Garbe and Venturino's book (The Black Powder Cartridge Primer). This book may be a bit dated, but it is still the "gold plate standard" for learning to load the black powder cartridge rifle. When I started shooting BPCR's, I knew absolutely NO ONE who knew anything about it. I had a couple of friends who "professed" to know, but, frankly, they did not. Before I fired a shot, I bought Garbe's and Venturino's book, read it avidly, and the first five shots for record, in front of witnesses, by the way, went under an inch at 100 yards. A good example of these current rifles will blow your socks off with their accuracy and efficiency WITH BLACK POWDER. I do not shoot smokeless in my BPCR's, only BP with plain base lead bullets (if you are going to shoot black powder, you won't learn much by shooting them with smokeless I am afraid). The Black Powder Reloading Primer is available from Steve P. Garbe (SPG) at:
http://www.blackpowderspg.com/products_body.html.

Black powder cartridge shooting is not particularly hard but it has little to do with what you may or may not know about reloading with smokeless. It is just a different animal. I love to do both, but I learned that they are as different as a cat and a dog. Another comparison would be a man and a woman. I like both (in different ways, of course as I am a confirmed heterosexual:) ) but they are undeniably different animals - THAT is a fact!:mrgreen:

By the way, ******WALLACE, those are excellent pictures (and don't they add a great deal to the discussion)?

FWIW
Dale53

[45 2.1]

I consider that anyone who wants to shoot black powder cartridge rifles will be ill served if they DON'T buy both Wolf's book and Garbe and Venturino's book (The Black Powder Cartridge Primer). This book may be a bit dated, but it is still the "gold plate standard" for learning to load the black powder cartridge rifle. When I started shooting BPCR's, I knew absolutely NO ONE who knew anything about it. I had a couple of friends who "professed" to know, but, frankly, they did not. Before I fired a shot, I bought Garbe's and Venturino's book, read it avidly, and the first five shots for record, in front of witnesses, by the way, went under an inch at 100 yards. A good example of these current rifles will blow your socks off with their accuracy and efficiency WITH BLACK POWDER. I do not shoot smokeless in my BPCR's, only BP with plain base lead bullets (if you are going to shoot black powder, you won't learn much by shooting them with smokeless I am afraid). Dale, i'll disagree with your statement. What you can learn is how to make smokeless give the same ballistics, including low single digit extreme spreads, with equal or better accuracy than BP will give at longer ranges involved in the BPCR game. If your interested, I would tell you how to do that.
Black powder cartridge shooting is not particularly hard but it has little to do with what you may or may not know about reloading with smokeless. It is just a different animal. I love to do both, but I learned that they are as different as a cat and a dog. Another comparison would be a man and a woman. I like both (in different ways, of course as I am a confirmed heterosexual:) ) but they are undeniably different animals - THAT is a fact!:mrgreen: FWIWDale53

[montana_charlie]

I intend to buy an Italian Sharps 45/90 for black powder cartridge. I already have a 45/70 and it will just be easier to have a different lot of brass so I do not get things mixed up.
If you have it in your head to buy a .45/90, there is probably nothing that will deter you.
But, if you want a new Pedersoli, and need a different caliber to keep your brass seperate, there is the .40/65. You will find it to be quite accurate, and well-suited to your shooting range without the 'punishment' of the .45 /90.
CM

[wills]

.
But, if you want a new Pedersoli, and need a different caliber to keep your brass seperate, there is the .40/65. You will find it to be quite accurate, and well-suited to your shooting range without the 'punishment' of the .45 /90.
CM

And your powder and shot goes a little further with the .40-65.

Also take a look at Croft Barker’s books
http://www.cisternpublishing.org/Books.html

[Dale53]

45 2.1;
If you wish to compete in BPCR silhouette where only straight black (or certain approved substitutes) is allowed you would be best to spend your limited time to learning to use the stuff that is required. That's what I meant and didn't say too clearly. I am not particularly a "black powder only" type of guy but I discovered over the years that black is considerably different in the way it must be handled for best results and since most of us have limited time for any particular pursuit we will be better served if we work with what is required.

You absolutely can do well with smokeless in the BPCR's but smokeless is not allowed in competition. Can't even legally use duplex. Managing black powder fouling under variable weather conditions requires doing a bit of it before you learn how.

On the other hand, I use ONLY smokeless in my Marlin Lever 45/70. I use what's practical in the hunting woods with this rifle. However, I wouldn't feel handicapped ANY if I chose to hunt with black powder and the 45/70 class of cartridge in my BPCR.

Understand, this is strictly a personal choice of mine, not a law that everyone should follow.

Dale53

[Nardoo]

Thanks for the collective wisdom. I am looking forward to loading for and shooting this gun. I know I am not travelling the easiest route here but perhaps I will learn something along the way.
SPG will post me Venturino's book so perhaps I will not have to post more silly questions here. Will report back with my successes or failures.

Nardoo

[Four Fingers of Death]

Do you have a link for Mrs Wolf's books, etc? I'd rather give her my business if possible.

I noticed a few books by Paul A Matthews. I know Big John is a big fan of his, what are his books like?

Mind you I have enough books to keep me busy until I'm I32 years old!

[montana_charlie]

Do you have a link for Mrs Wolf's books, etc?
Her website... http://www.the45-70book.com/
CM

[floodgate]

Mick:

Paul Matthews' books are all worth getting; try Mike Stegen at <www.gunbooksales.com>; he may be able to give you free shipping - even to OZ - if you place a multiple order. Another good set of BP books is the series by Croft Barker, via <www.cisternpublishing.org>.

If you can find any books by Gerald O. Kelver, grab them, too. I believe they are all out of currently out of print, but look for used ones via AbeBooks at <www.abebooks.com>.

I think I actually have spent more on firearms books over the years than on all the "hardware" of the hobby, and don't regret it a bit!

Doug

[Dale53]

I see "Montana charlie" has already displayed Mrs. Wolf, now Stone's web site. I definitely recommend that you give her your business. She has a number of neat things for our sport.

In THE book, I used the diagrams to make custom expanders for my Lee dies (they don't require thread cutting) so that I have EXACTLY the next tension that I desire for best results using the soft bullets that are common to BPCR's (I use 30/1 lead/tin).

Good stuff!

I'm more than a bit of a "book-a-file", myself.

Dale53

[Nardoo]

Mick,
Seeing you live just down the road I have an interesting read for you. It is entitled 'The Art of Bullet Casting from Hand Loader & Rifle Magazines 1966-1981' and has a wealth of interesting articles from the likes of Carmichael, Venturino, Miller and Paul A Mathews. I will post it down (or drop it off) to you if you like.
You are probably not supposed to photocopy it but it has been out of print for a while. I love the story on chicken loads.
Let me know if you would like a read.
Had a look at my new 45/90 at the local gun shop tonight. Just have to wait for the permit to purchase now. Is gunna be a long two weeks.

Nardoo

[zeprin]

Here's some info on Army Range Testing of the 45/70 at ranges of up to TWO MILES!
http://www.researchpress.co.uk/targets/ballistics/sandyhook.htm
z