Today I Leaded a Barrel for the first time.

[Jacko.357]

I've never had any Leading before this morning in any of the other 3 Calibres I Cast for! Ahh well had to happen sooner than later. Was quite intrigued that so much Lead can line a Bore so quickly, 6 Shots and it was highly visible in the Bore, took some Scrubbing I tell you.

Rifle is a my new Rossi Rio Grande 45.70 which has a 19.5" Barrel. I've just started developing Loads for it. Bore is [ edit ] 451, Groove .457 . When I slugged the bore it traveled with an even pressure through the Barrel. Projectile is a Lee 405 grain HB Cast from air cooled Wheel Weight Alloy, drops at .459. I bought this Mould to get me shooting Cast in this Calibre, definetly not my first Choice but what I could afford at the time.

I do not have a Sizing Die but figure that 2 thou Over Groove should have been fine. Lube was 2 Coats of LLA but I also spray a Squirt of Lanotec Liquid Lanolin into the Tub when I Tumble Lube. I used 40 grains ADI AR2206H, You Folks know it as Hodgdon H4895. I have Shot LLA and Liquid Lanolin Lubed Proj from my 35.303 at 1886fps so I know it works. This is a Trapdoor Springfield Starting Load, Velocity approx 1420 fps

Next time I get to the Range I'll try the same 40 gr AR2206H Load and Lee Proj but Lubed with Homemix Parrafin, LLA and STP Lube. Might try Water Quenching them as well. If that does not work I'll slow em down some

I use Gas Checks with my .357, .44 Mag and 35.303 which perhaps explains why I have never had any issue's with Leading before today. I'll be a while before I get a Gas Check Mould for my 45.70 until then I wont let this Mould Beat me I will get the 405 HB to shoot well without Leading

regards Jacko

[MtGun44]

GCs cover up the problem, but will work, no doubt. IMO, they are never necessary in any
pistol ammo, but very helpful in rifle ammo. NRA 50-50 lube is a known good lube, works
over a very wide range of conditions, velocities, powders, alloys, etc and is highly
recommended. LLA defintely can work but has a spotty record, many having success,
many others failing badly, many having success under certain conditions, serious failures
under slightly different condtions. LLA can work, but seems to be far more difficult to
predict results with.

I have excellent results with RCBS 405 GC AC WWTs with NRA 50-50 in Marlin GG at 1750 fps
with a fairly heavy load of W748 powder. Very accurate and zero leading.

Bill

[Jacko.357]

Thanks for the Input Bill, I also use Red Label Carnuba Red, it has proven excellent in my 35.303. The 357 and .44 like LLA. I have shot the Carnuba Red more in the 35.303 but the LLA does it's job also

I had often read LLA was Lousy, LLA was Great, the LEE 405 HB was Good, the 405 HB was terrible - just gotta try them and see what happens. I'd be happy to shoot this projectile for occasions when Wussy Loads are more approprite like at the Range

You have reminded me - I have shot a few 45.70 Rounds loaded with AR2208 [Varget] under 350 gr Commercial Hardcasts with a anti fouling coating and the same Proj with AR2206H [H4895]. Today was the First Proj I used that I'd Cast myself. I must try these same Proj with a load of Varget under them to see what happens. It has a little better Case Volume than AR2206H so may be better for reduced Loads

I do like the 45-405-fn 600 RCBS Mould, it would seem to suit my Purposes but it's one of several I'm looking at.

regards Jacko

[Bret4207]

Some guns just plain don't like certain boolits. I'm not saying give up, but be aware some gun/boolit combos just don't work.

I'd follow Bills suggestion and try a different lube first.

[Grandpas50AE]

I'd go to another lube as well. My Marlin GG 1895 shoots 400 gr. cast boolits all day long without leading using the Javelina 50/50 lube. Boolits sized at .458 cast from straight AC WW. Pusing mine at 1700 fps.

The factory Trapdoor Springfield load is 405 gr. at 1330 fps.

[44man]

LLA----LLA---- Oh well, I can't say much! :mrgreen:

[Freightman]

LLA by its self? never had a lot of luck with it in a rifle, just so in a pistol. Add some bees wax and it is very acceptable. I use the LEE "405 HB which drops at .460 and it doesn't really weigh 405gr all mine drop at 387gr+-. but with bees wax and lard ( I shoot BP) it is very accurate and no lead.

[williamwaco]

According to everything I know, that should not lead.
However I also know that the "rules" don't always work.

I really like LLA. I have used it in the .30-30 up to 1900 fps with no leading.

It works perfect in my .357 Winchester 92 at 1600 fps.

That said, it is NOT infallible.

You can see the results of 67 LLA tests here ( including the failures ).

http://www.reloadingtips.com/pages/exp_111201a_lla_test.htm


The only lube I have ever used that is infallible is 50-50 Alox beeswax. Either Lyman or Javelina. It has never failed me in almost 60 years of cast bullets.


I vote with the try a new lube crowd.

.

[waksupi]

Mix that LLA half and half with beeswax, and you will have a usable lube.

[atr]

I'm with Bill on this....LLA spotty record....but NRA 50-50 a proven winner. I have not had a problem with plain base when using the NRA formula. I have also used Super Moly which has give excellent results
atr

[Larry Gibson]

Also in agreement with Bill. If LLA doesn't work when applied straight as per the instructions then mixed with beeswax is the best of anything to mix it with.

Another thing is the "leading" my be antimonal wash caused by a lack of tin in the WW alloy and the fact that your load is pushing that PB'd bullet. Thus I suggest you add 2% tin to the WWs and try that along with recuing the load to 36 gr and add a 1 gr dacron filler. Then work up in 1 gr increments until accuracy goes south, probably in the 1500 - 1600 fps range.

Larry Gibson

[Jacko.357]

Righto, an update on how this Rifle is Shooting

This Morning at 50 yards shooting of what amounts to a Card Table in the middle of a Cow Paddock wobbling around on my Elbows

I shot the same load as yesterday 40 gr AR2206H [H4895] 405 Lee HB Proj that drop at .459" except lubed with a Homemix Lube - Bee's Wax, Liquid Alox and STP Oil Treatment. Today there was a little Leading, much less than yesterday but visable in the Lands as faint dull grey lines in the Rifling of the last inch or so of the barrel. Perhaps running out of Lube ??? Dunno !!! but those Lee 405's have 3 deep wide Lube Grooves and the HB filled with Lube aswell as I pan Lube

Here's a pic of two 5 shot groups, they opened up and shifted as the Barrel leaded but the Load does show a little promise as a good shooter.

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff55/jackoarcher/P8170699.jpg

The first 5 shots are in the base of the V, the next 5 low right. As suggested I will add a little Tin in my next Casting session. I'll load 2 batches of Cartridges, one with with this same Lube and the other with Red Label Carnuba Red 2700. Will think on further reducing loads because I do not like the idea of using filler. I am sure I could drop a grain or 2 in complete safety without filler

There is 2 shots touching each other off to the Left, they are 45 gr AR2206H 350gr Westcast rnfp approx 1500fps. They are commercial Hardcasts with a Gold coloured Teflon like Coating.

regards Jacko

[357maximum]

I think I would try shooting (using break in procedures) a hundred or so fullspeed jacketed rounds through it, thoroughly clean it and then start over with cast. I have yet to inspect a rossi 45/70 marlin clone barrel but I am assuming it is a bit rough when new just like the rest of their barrels. I might even try firelapping with the beartooth method before I proceeded farther.

[Afro408]

Hi Jacko,
Have you thought of placing a card wad under this 45-70 boolit? It may stop the gas cutting.
Cheers,
Afro

[MBTcustom]

Have you pulled any boolits and measured the size? Sometimes the brass itself will size down the boolits.
Also, I would try water quenching your alloy. Air cooled might be too soft.

I'm still courting my 45-70, but so far, I lube with 45/45/10 and I have zero leading (as usual). I have pushed 45/45/10 up to 1800fps+ with my 358's and just started to get streaks at 2000FPS. That was with one coat.

I agree with NRA 50/50 lube being ideal for this application. I teach lots of people to cast, and it never ceases to amaze me how immediately after they get going, they feel the need to make their own lube from published recipes, with a few "modifications". Then they come and ask me why their barrels are leading.
Then I ask them what they changed?
Well, I thought throwing some eye of newt in the lube would help it.
I tell them, "well, it didn't" LOL

Its frustrating how often this happens!
Lube is a science all to itself and there are a few recipes that really seem to work, and the rest are "good enough".
FWFL would also be a great idea if you can make it.

[rond]

I looked at a Rossi in 45 Colt last weekend and the bore was very rough.

[Marlin Junky]

Others have provided good advice but a chamber casting may be revealing. .460" or more might be necessary for a better seal. BTW, it doesn't matter whether you experience cyclones or hurricanes, you have the bore and groove diameters reversed in your opening post. :bigsmyl2:

[runfiverun]

just lower the load about 3 grains.

[62chevy]

It's been almost a year wonder if he solved the leading problem. Not trying to be a smart-a$$ but would like to learn from his testing.

[warboar_21]

Interesting that I would stumble upon this thread. I just bought this mold and cast and loaded some for the very same rifle. My mold drops them at .460"+ and they weigh right at 400-403 lubed with an alloy of close to 50/50 ww/range scrap that is air cooled. I sized them to .4585" and loaded them over 15grs of unique and this weekend I will see how they shoot.

[DLCTEX]

Interesting that I would stumble upon this thread. I just bought this mold and cast and loaded some for the very same rifle. My mold drops them at .460"+ and they weigh right at 400-403 lubed with an alloy of close to 50/50 ww/range scrap that is air cooled. I sized them to .4585" and loaded them over 15grs of unique and this weekend I will see how they shoot.
You don't say which rifle you will be shooting those in , but if a Marlin or H&R I'll bet you have to shoot them as cast at .460 before it's over.

[MtGun44]

+1 on .4585 being likely too small, altho the Unique will whack them in the butt pretty hard
and may make up for it.

Bill

[warboar_21]

Sorry I forgot to say that i'm shooting them out of a Rossi Rio Grande which slugs at .457".

[Jacko.357]

Been away from Cast Bullets for a while, check in and was surprised to find this old thread is still going and a very helpfull PM that was a couple of weeks old.

I did end up solving this leading issue a week or 2 after I last posted in it when I switched Lubes to Carnuba Red. The Rifle is very accurate. Sadly it's been months since I've had an opportunity to shoot it so have had no opportunity to try the great suggestions offered to this point

I will never put a Jacketed Projectile through the Rifle, they are just to expensive, highway robbery the prices we get slugged for projectiles in Australia.


My Rio Grand seems to have a nice smooth Bore and I am sure a rough Bore had little to do with the leading, just a poor Lube choice.

The Lee 405 HB Proj Cycle Ok through the Rifle but they are a reasonably long Proj and I feel I'd be better served with a slightly shorter RN Plain Based Proj


I bought that Lee Mould as a stop Gap. I've had great service from the 2 previous Ranch dog Moulds I'd bought for my Pistol Calibre Levers and was keen to buy one for my Rossi 45.70 but sadly thats now not possible. I have not made any firm decisions on what Mould I will buy.

Thanks again Folks, very helpfull info

regards Jacko

[sthwestvictoria]

I have a new mold from Cast Bullet Engineering and it is beautiful:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?196173-Happiness-is-a-custom-mold
I can highly recommend Jim and his molds. It was $AUD99 shipped for a single cavity , $85 for mold plus shipping (Lee universal handles not included) This is a 250grain GC mold for my 35 whelen. What cast are you shooting in your 35-303? And what load.

I have been using the 250grain with copper GC, wheel weights with 2%tin, oven heat treated over 39.5grains 2206H, sized 358. This has a pan lube of 72%bee wax, 20% vaseline, 5% lanoline, 5% crayon by weight. No leading. Rifle is re-bored Mauser 98k FN.

I am debating about venturing into fillers or going up with the 2206H load, as per yourself I am reluctant about the fillers.

I have also been shooting the .358 158grain plain base Lee pistol bullet in this with 11.5grains Trail Boss. Good fun, no recoil. Point of impact 5" south of the full power loads. These are lubed with a local version of 45/45/10 - 45% LLA, 45% Gilly Stephenson Carnubra wax and 10% mineral spirits.
http://gillystephenson.com/shop/waxes/carnauba-polish
Does require some heating to pour but dries hard and certainly works in the Trailboss loads.

[Jacko.357]

Evening sthwestvictoria

I love my 35.303, a gorgeous Lithgow 1942 No1 Mk3 Lee Enfield with a 22" .357 TSE Barrel. I have a 2 Cavity 358250 CBE Mould that drops .360 Proj and use Lee Mould Handles, best Mould I own, a real Joy to use. I use straight Wheel Weight Alloy, Gator Check, Lube is Carnuba Red cut 50 50 with Beeswax, 260 grains ready to Shoot. I size them to .359 . I was Water Quenching but tried Air Cooled with no issue's at all so I do not bother to Water Quench anymore.

I use 38 grains ADI 2206H, CCI LR Primers and Remington or PPU/Highland Brass at a chronied 1886 FPS. I was using 2208 and it was working very well for me but the LGS was out of 2208 one day so I bought 2206H and I gained a little accuracy and a little velocity. I am sure I could push these proj closer to 2000fps but see no need as it performs admirably on Game as it is.

I'm with you on Fillers, 2206H is perfectly safe down to 60% Case Capacity, no need for Fillers. I have messed about with several Lubes that I read about and Carnuba cut with Beeswax is excellent in all my Calibers. I have been curious about the 45/45/10 and had not been able to find any Johnsons Paste Wax, it used to be readily available. Gilly Stevensons is readily available and I was not sure it would be a good substitute. I have a good supply of Carnuba Red but may just mix up some 45/45/10 using the Gilly Stevensons now, thanks for the tip

I use a Lee 158 gr GC SWC Projectile in my .357 Rossi but much prefer a 166 gr Ranchdog Mould. I have not tried either in the .35.303 yet

regards Jacko

[MtGun44]

Jacko said:
"I was Water Quenching but tried Air Cooled with no issue's at all so I do not
bother to Water Quench anymore. "

Yup. Same here. I love it when somebody tells me it is easier to water quench.

Is that whole new barrel, or just rebored up to .35 cal?

Bill

[Jacko.357]

Bill I rebarrelled it with a No5 Total Solutions Engineering [ formally MAB ] Barrel

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff55/jackoarcher/35303SMLE.jpg (http://s243.photobucket.com/user/jackoarcher/media/35303SMLE.jpg.html)

sthwestvictoria, I have also shot the Lyman 358315Projectile to a similar Velocity, load was 34 Grains 2206H. Very Mild to shoot and more than Hunting accurate. I loaned that Mould and Cast up Hundreds of Projectiles. I would not mind buying my own. Might work well with your Whelan

[MtGun44]

Nice looking rifle. I expect it makes the hogs fall over very quickly.

I have a .35 Rem and am having trouble finding the time to fiddle with
loading. Too many other of life's things getting pushed to the top of
the "to do list" lately.

I have the 358315, have shot literally a few groups, and have a Ranch
Dog mold, too, have managed to cast a hundred or so and trying to find
time to load and shoot them. I think it would be a good hog gun.

Bill