THe Blending of an Alloy ??

[41mag]

I have began to try and work with the lead I have on hand in order to blend up a couple of different alloys or as similar to a specific alloy as I can reasonably get.

I have downloaded the Calculator spreadsheet that Bumpo628 posted a while back, and have been using it to play with the quantities of what I have on hand to blend into other alloys, like the equivalents of COWW, Lyman #2, or Hardball. Anyway you get the picture. I realize that the percentages listed on the spreadsheet are as close as possible, and have been pulled down from reliable sources for the most part, but there is still room for error in any of them.

I have several types of what I call base alloys, Iso Cores, Iso Ingots, Antimonial Lead ingots, WW ingots, Lino, Mono and Solder. I also have a very limited amount of pure Pb that I mainly have been using to pour up over sized boolits for slugging with. At most I might have around 15#. So I know I cannot do much in the direction of the 20-1 higher or lower type alloys.

So anyway using the calculator spreadsheet, I set up to blend up some Lyman #2. Looking at what I had I picked out the Core alloy as a base, simply due to I have plenty of it to play with. I then picked at the numbers using both Mono and Lino, to see where that would get me. I settled on the Mono. Then I started to play with the tin. Since I had plenty of 95/5 solder I picked that one and started to tweak the amount until I came up with, according to the calculator, a 5.01 tin, 5.0 antimony, 90 lead alloy, which is pretty darned close to what is listed for Lyman #2. So, using the amounts shown on the sheet, I fired up the burner, and went to work. It only took about an hour from start of melt, to finished with pouring the last little ingot in my CB ingot molds.

Everything looked great, then I got called into work. After getting in at close to midnight last night I didn't mess around much getting to bed, then having to be back out there at 05:30 left little room to play around this morning either. I did however take most of what I had and boxed it up and shipped it off, via the sweet wife during her lunch break. I am hoping to work a trade with one of the members here for small amount of pure for what I could hopefully blend up and get close to the Lyman #2.

So I get home this afternoon drained, but curious, and grabbed up the Cabine Tree and one of the extra ingots and start screwing it in one full turn. Then I did it again, and again, just to be sure it wasn't slipping on the block or something.

What I found was, the hardness according to the reading I got was more along the lines of 20-1 at .068 or 10BHN, rather than being up around Lyman #2 which would read around .085'ish and be around a 15 BHN. This is actually LESS than what I usually get with the straight Iso core ingots checked in about the same time frame or less.

So all that said, (and I am sorry it was so long,) will using the calculator to work out an alloy, and then blending the amounts in by weight, result in anything close to what I am looking for? I realize there are a ton of variables, but just a reasonable facsimile would be nice. Should I wait a day or two more before getting an accurate reading as it hardens up?

I know it WILL get a touch harder, but I also figured that with 2# of Mono in with only 14# of the Iso alloy it would have raised it up higher than it is already.

Also does the temperature at which this is blended have a direct correlation on the hardness? I kept this all down around 650 - 675 while it was in the pot, starting off melting the Iso ingots first, then adding the Mono, and then the solder.

Thanks,

[Defcon-One]

I do the same thing with Isotope Lead, Linotype and 50/50 Solder. I get 5%, 5%, 90%. All known content in should give a known alloy in the end. Add Wheel Weights and thing are uncontrollable and unrepeatable.

1.) I'm not sure that you can trust your hardness tester. Are you?

2.) Time from casting to testing probably does matter.

3.) Cooling time matters, the longer it takes, the softer the lead will test. Quench it fast and it will be harder.

4.) If you mixed it right, it should be #2 Alloy.

I melt at 650-700 and flux it with saw dust at 700 Deg. F. then pour ingots.

I sold some of my Lyman #2 to another member here who tested it and confirmed that it was what it should be. I think you are alright!

[lwknight]

1. The temperature, (within reason) of the alloy while blending does not matter.

2. You probably cannot quench cool a large ingot fast enough to harden it.

3. It does take a few days for antimonial alloys to reach its hardness. About 2 weeks should get you 90% to the final result.

4. Once you cast actual boolits they will likely be harder than the ingots almost immediately and within a few days noticeably harder. The 2-6-92 alloy is my favorite and it was no coincidence that this alloy is so popular.

[sqlbullet]

I can say the 1 lb ingots I cast into molds sitting in a water bath are definitely harder than ones that air-cool. You dont' have to quench them to change the hardness.

If you start with relatively accurate known alloys, follow the calculator, you will end up with the target alloy. The questions in this are: How sure are you of your input alloys? How accurate were your measurements? If you are a confident yes on both of these then ignore you hardness tester.

[Longwood]

Last year while experimenting with alloying, I discovered that it seems to take quite a while for the melt to completely homogenate.
I hope that is the correct word,,
Mix evenly.
I tried a couple of different things and found out I can coat a hot, long handled spoon, with a little paraffin and gently insert the spoon down into the melt and gently stir which causes the pot to roil and boil hard enough to actually make my bench quiver..
If I pull out the spoon right away, it is coated with black soot, AKA carbon. Dip it back in and the soot soon comes off of the spoon and floats to the top.
It sure seems to work well for speeding the alloying time and how even the bullet hardness turns out.
Wear gloves,,, I have not had the process spit at me but there is the possibility.
Wear gloves.

[41mag]

The questions in this are:

(A) How sure are you of your input alloys?

(B) How accurate were your measurements?

(C) If you are a confident yes on both of these then ignore you hardness tester.

(A) Alloys were about as correct as I can be, The Iso core alloy, I smelted into ingots myself about two weeks ago, the same with the Monotype, and the solder came right off the labeled roll.

(B) The core alloy was weighed on a bathroom scale which is accurate as long as your over 5#. This was 14#'s worth of Core alloy, so I feel good it was correct. The Mono ingots, and solder, were both weighed on a digital postal scale. I have checked several times and usually re-zero it before use. It measures down to tenths of an ounce.

(C) The Cabine Tree tester has measured alloys purchased straight from Rotometals, and hit them right on the nose. It was also used to check several types of commercial poured bullets and hit right where they said they were supposed to be as well, I have no reason to discount the readings I get form it either.

The reasons above are what worried me a bit. This said this IS the first time I have made up anything other than 10# of pure Pb and 1# of solder for some Lyman Devastators to shoot out of my 45 ACP. Other than adding in a touch of tine here and there to either of the Iso alloys or to some WW's, that is the extent of my alloying.

I have poured up some boolits using the Lyman #2 from Roto, and they checked out pretty darned close to their said BHN right off the bat, and that was what worried me a bit, and why I posted the comment. I will give it a week or so and continue to check it, and hopefully it will cure out to right where it needs to be. Sure would be of a great benefit to me, if I can trust the spreadsheet calculator, as long as the contents of the ingredients are known.

[gbrown]

I have made several different alloys using various metals. One that I made was Linotype and pure (?) lead. I was pretty sure that the pure lead was not. Anyway, that lot came out at 18 bhn. I have a Lee lead tester, and in testing several alloys, it always has come in right. I use small round ingots poured into the aluminum cups of "tea" candles. Gives a nice flat surface. I made another alloy of Pewter and COWW (19.5 WW / .5 Pewter) and that came out at 14 bhn. Both of the alloys were tested at 1,2,& 3 weeks. All I know, is that you have to experiment, test and look at the results. I look at the Calculator spreadsheet, but in mho, it is based on known metals/alloys, which don't necessarily exist in today's world.

[David2011]

The hardness of ingots is a good thing to know and certainly a starting point but why bother with quenching them? That induced hardness will go away when they're melted to cast boolits. It might give some indication of the potential for the ability to induce water dropped hardness but due to the difference in mass a boolit will probably not have the same hardness when water dropped.

There are a lot af names in this thread whose opinions I've learned to respect and they mirror my own empirical results. Defcon-One and lwnight make a very important point about the aging of an alloy. I learned to size boolits soon after casting. Once (it only took one time) I let a batch sit around for a month or two before sizing. It took a great deal more effort than usual to get them through the die on a Star.

David

[40Super]

If you have some known Lyman #2(like from Rotometals),I would cast some bullets from that and your alloy, then check the hardness of those bullets to each other over time.

I had some 40cal bullets that I dropped in water because the first batch seemed too soft(approx 13bhn),I didn't have a sizer then and found I needed to size them down. It took over a month to get set-up, when I did those bullets ended up in the 18bhn(air cooled)range and 26-30bhn(for the water dropped). I remelted those WD bullets and recast them,but air cooled. Aging some alloys makes a big difference

[41mag]

We had gone to our place in the country for the weekend, and to see the daughter and grandkids.

I though about this the whole time I was there and it bothered me that I couldn't remember just exactly the weights of the metals I had blended. When we got home just a bit ago, I sat down in front of the PC and pulled up my notes as well as the spreadsheet. No matter how I slice it, it should be for all practical purposes Lyman #2.

Just out of sheer frustration more than anything else, I pulled out the sample ingot once again. This time I checked some boolits my friend had given me which were listed at 22 on the package, and were so when we checked them upon receipt. I also checked a couple of ones he had which were poured from Lyman #2 alloy he had purchased from Rotometals, Both of them hit right on the money at 22 and 15. Then the moment of truth, I set the ingot in the Cabine Tree and touched off with the point. I checked the number on the dial and cranked it one full turn. It rolled right around to .085" time and time again, which crossed over on the chart is 15 BHN all day long.

Lesson learned here is to be patient. I guess I jumped the gun a bit, but what had me was that the Iso core ingots usually will hit 11.5 - 12 BHN with no effort, and all I could get from this sample the other day was a 9. It threw me sideways I guess.

Like I mentioned above, this is all new to me, and I was hoping to be able to use the alloys listed on that spreadsheet as a guide. I know that EVERY alloy isn't going to hit perfectly every time, but if I can at least hit within a point or two either direction that would be fine with me. I just didn't want to start tossing this and that into the pot and hoping for the best. At least using the spreadsheet, I can accurately measure what I AM putting in the pot, and if it is listed, and can be positively identified as a know alloy like the cores, one of the Types or solders, then I at least have half a chance of it being pretty close.

Thanks for the ideas and replies,

[lwknight]

41 mag , all that you describe is exactlty why I do not like to mess with water quenching instead of just of letting go of a few bucks to mix the desired alloy.
True that most people around here are talking mixing COWW with lead at 50/50 and all that mess while the other side is more technical and measure out ternary alloys in percentages like 2-6-92 or 5/95 (binary)or whatever.

Bottom line is that you are on the right track using calculation to at least try know what your alloy actually is so that you can get repeated consistancy indefinately. You are right , patience is a virtue especially when dealing with ternary alloys.

[canyon-ghost]

Your hardening time for lead is 2 weeks to optimum, it degrades only slightly in hardness for the next two years.

We've covered this in water quenching and alloying before.

Good Luck,
Ron

PS: Two years? You have that much patience? hmm...lol.