Need some Help badly.

[Boerrancher]

A few weeks ago now I got some cleaning/swab solution from custom muzzleloaders. I noticed that every time I used it as a pre-cleaner after shooting that my cleaning rod and patches would want to get stuck in the bore, so I quit using it, and never had any more problems. I had a brain fart today and grabbed it because I was in a hurry and didn't want to look for my spray bottle of moose milk. I sprayed the bird dog 6 cleaner down the bore and wiped it out with a couple of patches then headed to the sink for the hot water bath. The first patch down in the bore after pouring a cup of hot water down it, is now stuck. I should have dumped that **** out when I first noticed the problem, and now I am paying for it.

The rod, jag, and patch are stuck at the bottom of the barrel and it has been nicely saturated in hot water. I have put the barrel in a vice and a chain on the rod and went after it with a 2lb slide hammer after I couldn't pull it out. It is stuck stuck. If I don't get it out in the next 12 to 24 hours the barrel will be ruined. If I have to send it somewhere the barrel will be ruined. I don't know what happens with that cleaning solution that it causes that, but you can bet that it is getting poured out. The rod only wants to stick when I used it, and as I said brain fart.

Best wishes,

Joe

[sharps4590]

Joe, is it your flintlock? If so I don't have a cure as it sounds as if you tried eveything I know. If it's a caplock I would try to get some powder in the chamber and just shoot it out. You MIGHT get enough force from the niupple to move it or dry it, or you should be able to dry it enough if it a drum and nipple and you can pull the drum.

Since you have the barrel out already I wouldn't think it would be too hard to pull the breech plug and just drive the darn thing out. I mean, it got screwed into the barrel in the beginning so it has to unscrew. That's what a gunsmith would do.

[wgr]

you could try and blow it out with air. what kind of rifle

[Boerrancher]

This is my 32cal Crockett. There it is a cap lock but there is no drum, and no breach plug. It is made like the T/C cap locks. One way in and one way out. I have thought about trying to shoot the dang thing out. I may just go that rout. I will lose my jag, but better than loosing the barrel.

Thanks fellas keep them coming,

Joe

[Boerrancher]

GOT IT!!!!!!! I took a pipe cleaner and went in through the clean out screw hole and dried out the breach. I cleaned and dried the nipple, and nipple hole real well. I measured out 10 grains of 3Fg and it all went nicely into the nipple hole. I put the nipple back in and the gun back together and launched my ramrod up into the woods. I watched where it went, and walked right up to it about 100 yards from the front porch where I shot it from. Now before I clean it I have one more thing to do. I am going to go outside and Dump the entire bottle of Birddog6's Black Powder Bore Cleaner & Swabbing Lube. I will save the bottle but that **** is gone. How much do you want to bet that I don't get a patch stuck when I go back to my old methods.

After shooting out the rod I figured out why that Birddog6's crapola causes the patches to stick. It causes instant rust. Spray it in a gun and swab, but as it dries it leaves a nice layer of orange rust. I have never seen anything oxidize steel that quickly. I don't know what is in it but I am going to pour it out. Now I just need to order a new ram rod for my Crockett because shooting it bent it. So even though I am elated that I got it out, I am still mad at the reason why it got stuck in the first place.

Thanks again and best wishes,

Joe

[curator]

Dump what ever water is still in the bore and pour your "moose-milk" down the bore alongside the cleaning rod. Put some more down the nipple hole and let it sit for a while. Then push the ramrod all the way to the breechplug and try pulling it again. Often a push then pull will eventually get a stuck patch to break free. Chances are the patch material is bunched up around your jag and water is not sufficiently slippery to prevent jamming. Moose-milk should provide the lubrication needed. Don't use thick, stretchy material for patches. Try washed cotton muslin in the future and you won't have this problem. Nothing wrong with a hot water bath to clean with the right thickness non-stretchy patch material.

[waksupi]

I always use cold water for a first rinse. It seems to me, that hot water sets the fouling harder. After the cold water, use whatever you like. I do all of my cleaning with cold water alone. No rust problems, but I live in a much drier climate.

[longbow]

I use hot water and have no problems with it. I just take the barrel off my caplock, set the breech in a bucket of hot tap water then run the patched jag down and pump it up and down pulling out until the barrel is full of water then pump all the way in and out a few times.

The patch isn't real tight (that may help with easy pumping too) but will pull water all the way up the barrel so a little pumping cleans all the fouling out and the the hot barrel dries fast. I usually put a little laundry soap in the water too but not always.

I use a couple of dry patches to get out any "loose" water then let the heat do some drying then use WD40/oil mix on a snug patch to make sure inside and outside of the barrel are well coated.

I've never had the hard fouling issue waksupi has but maybe it is due to powder brand, lube, or maybe both.

Not so easy to do the hot water thing in the field or range but I am with waksupi on plain old water taking out the fouling. I like simple (and cheap), of course I am often called simple and cheap too.

It works for me.

Longbow

[Good Cheer]

Wow. That's some scary stuff.

[Boerrancher]

Long Bow,

Your cleaning method is what I have used since I was a kid. For over 30 years it has worked flawlessly for me. The only difference is the initial rinse is just slightly warm, and then the rest is hot.

Curator,

I use a washed cotton patch material that is cut into 1 inc squares that don't go up very far on my jag. I have never had a rod get stuck except the times that I used the Birddog6's Cleaning solution. After I shot out the rod, I cleaned it with the hot water like a always do and there were no issues. I will say this about the cleaning solution. It does a great job removing the fouling. It just dries rusty. I talked to the fella that sells it and he told me he has never heard of anyone having problems with it, and it has been on the market for over 15 years, so I don't know.

Thanks again fellas for all of the suggestions,

Joe

[curator]

Boerrancher,

I deal with a similar problem all the time at our Boy Scout shooting range. Some of our .50 caliber muzzle loading rifles are very prone to having the cleaning rod stick at the breech when being wiped after every shot. Often this is due to the wiping patch being a bit too dry, or sometimes cut too large. Both of these issues are exacerbated by roughness in the breech area on a couple of rifles. Since our rifles have been in service about 20 years and cleaning after use has been occasionally neglected I am surprised that we only have issues with two of six rifles. A borescope reveals a very slight roughness on the two offending rifles that is not present on the others. I can imagine that this would be even more of an issue on a smaller caliber like .32.

[Grandpas50AE]

Boerrancher,
I have had a few stuck ramrods like that over the years, and that is how I've cleared them since I started muzzleloading in 1975. It is the easiest way I've found.

As far as cleaning solutions, I've tried most and had the same problems. Long ago I read about the buffalo hunters pre-cleaning (rinsing) with urine. Was out in the woods with low water supply in 1977, so tried that - I've been using that as a pre-rinse ever since. The urine has ammonia, which neutralizes the sulfuric acid created when firing black powder. After the urine pre-rinse, hot soapy water for two patches, and clean hot water for a final rinse will get all the fouling AND acid out of the bore. My T/C 50 Hawken is the original I bought in 1975, and the barrel is pristine to this day. For patch lube I have been using the Wonder Lube 1000 to keep the bore seasoned, and use it as a final coat of protecting film after finished cleaning.

[Reg]

This is my 32cal Crockett. There it is a cap lock but there is no drum, and no breach plug. It is made like the T/C cap locks. One way in and one way out. I have thought about trying to shoot the dang thing out. I may just go that rout. I will lose my jag, but better than loosing the barrel.

Thanks fellas keep them coming,

Joe


Not trying to play dumb here just have never seen one of these before. You say no breech plug ? Is the barrel rifled ? If so-- how can this be ? Even a flat bottom deep hole drill would be a trick. Glad you got the rod out but surely there must be some way to open the rear of the barrel ??????

[Boerrancher]

Not trying to play dumb here just have never seen one of these before. You say no breech plug ? Is the barrel rifled ? If so-- how can this be ? Even a flat bottom deep hole drill would be a trick. Glad you got the rod out but surely there must be some way to open the rear of the barrel ??????

The back inch or so of the barrel is a machined piece that is the drum/ignition chamber. It is bored and aprox 3/4 inch of barrel is turned down to fit the bore hole. The two pieces have been welded or silver soldered together. It is a very well designed system, and I have seen it used by many gun mfgs, besides Traditions and Thompson Center. The only down fall is that you don't have an easily removable breach plug like on many of the cheaper MLs that have been cranked out in the past.

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk155/Boerrancher/Boolits/Firearms/TCHawkenD.jpg

In this photo of my TC Hawken the joint between the barrel and breach is visible. On my Crocket they did a bit better finish job and it is not visible from the top side like on the TC. I hope this helps clarify my post a bit better.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Tatume]

Breech plugs are threaded and screwed into the barrel. The threads are cut with an interference fit and are not intended to be removed. I've never seen one that was soldered or welded.

[sharps4590]

It's either a "hooked breech" and it has another name I can't recall at the moment but I think it's "bolster breech"........unless bolster is another name for drum, I'm simply drawing a blank. It has what could almost be called an "anti-chamber". The intent was and is to improve the weaker drum and nipple system. I really don't believe the breech is silver soldered or welded to the barrel as I've never seen on so done. Tatume is right, they aren't intended to be removed but sometimes they have to be.

Whatever the case, I'm glad you got it out. I've shot out a few jags over the years and once, as with you, the entire ramrod. Rather surprising how far 10-15 grs. of powder will send one flying!

I threw away any and all cleaning solutions 25 or more years ago, except for boiling water. Boiling water and Wonderlube have kept my rifles rust free and shooting well for that long.

[Boerrancher]

I think it is called a bolster breach, but I like you can't remember. I just can't believe that it bent my solid aluminum rod. I fixed it with a rubber mallet on the concrete floor of the basement.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Tatume]

Sharps, you may be thinking of "patent breech." A patent breech plug has a chamber of its own, and holds a small portion of the charge close to the fire of the percussion cap. Patent breech plugs can be hooked or not, the hook referring to the method of attachment to the tang. Barrels so plugged usually have a wedge or two on the forearm, and with the wedges and ramrod removed the barrel can be lifted up at the muzzle end, and then off the gun. Some breech plugs have an integral tang, and it is not intended that the barrel be routinely removed from the gun. All breech plugs that I have seen are threaded into the barrel.

[sharps4590]

You're right Tatume, "patent breech" was the term I was looking for, thank you!!!!....but it was not being found in the gray matter file by any search I could come up with!!!!!! I knew they could be hooked or not but man....I was having a total brain malfunction on that last post.....lol!! That's ok, I guess. I've lived long enough to have earned one occasionally.....

I'm in the same boat as you in that all the breech plugs I've ever seen were threaded.

[Geraldo]

Interesting problem, Joe. I have no experience with Birddog's stuff but a friend uses it and has no problems in the humidity down here.

The basic rule for muzzleloading is: if whatever you're doing shoots well, cleans well, works well, don't change it.

[Omnivore]

Your TC has a patent breech/snail combo, similar to these;
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/664/1

They're all simply threaded in tight, and are removable (though it is usually not recomended). I've had one out. The key is to get it back in to the same position. You'll see that on most such guns there is a graved line at the bottom, across the barrel/breech transition, for the purpose of realigning them upon re-installation (though the corners of an octagonal barrel serve as reference points about as well). When you install a plug it should have the threads coated with an anti-seise grease-- sold at any builder parts supplier such as "Track" linked above.

When the breech plug is installed originally, the two pieces are then draw-filed accross the joint, so if they're fit right they almost look to be one piece.

Glad you got your rod out. That little bit of powder (or compressed air, or a CO2 "unloader" setup) was the right way to do it. Same technique for removing a "dry ball".

[Boerrancher]

I still can't believe the recoil from 10 grains of 3Fg and the rod. I shot it off of my thigh so I could get a better view of where the rod was going. I have a nice purple bruise there where the but plate rested. Glad I didn't shoot it off the shoulder. Also I hope that rod was the heaviest bullet I ever shoot out of that rifle.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Geraldo]

I still can't believe the recoil from 10 grains of 3Fg and the rod. I shot it off of my thigh so I could get a better view of where the rod was going. I have a nice purple bruise there where the but plate rested. Glad I didn't shoot it off the shoulder. Also I hope that rod was the heaviest bullet I ever shoot out of that rifle.

Best wishes,

Joe

I'm impressed that it shot it that far. A friend had a rod/patch stuck in his Lyman GPR and we got some 4f (not sure how many grains) in it and it broke the patch loose but only moved the rod a few inches. At the other extreme I saw a guy shoot his inline with a full load, whatever kind of bullet, and his ramrod (had I seen that he left the rod down the barrel before he fired, I would have tried to get him to hold his fire). I'm not sure how he did with the bullet, but the rod flew very well for about 45 yards.

[Tatume]

I once had a stuck rod and unscrewed the rod from the jag and packed a little FFFg under the nipple and shot it into the ground. I had to dig quite a deep hole to recover the jag! It would have easily gone clear through a deer, with only 2 - 3 gr of powder.

[sharps4590]

Joe, waddaya reckon....'bout an 1800 grain projectile there? Betcha never thought you'd be shootin' elephant sized projectiles from yer squirrel rifle....hehe

[Sasquatch-1]

You should take the rifle load it up and shoot the container and get a little frustration out.

I was going to suggest using something like acetone to help get it out but the mission was already accomplished.

[TCLouis]

First, 2-3 grains of powder is a big plenty to shot a ramrod out.

Bore cleaning

First one has to realize that frontstuffer shooters are like fly fishers and archers, (accoutrements and opinions)

BUT

simple mixture of dishwashing liquid and water work just fine.

slight loose jag with patches made from worn out cotton sweatsuit.

Plug the nipple (round toothpick), fill bore with cleaning solution (put away shooting supplies).

Remove toothpick and dump contents out of the barrel.

Place a small piece of plastic tubing over the nipple (3-4" long) to direct solution away from the gun.

Turn the rough side of the patch to the bore and you get solvent action and physical scrubbing in one.

Solution and patch scrub until the patch comes clean (should not take many with a good bore)

4-5 dry patches, then a protective bore treatment with whatever you prefer.

I LOVE TC's "Bore Butter", it has always worked for me as a patch lube and bore protectectant.

2-3 days later run a dry patch down (careful with poor protection or inadequately cleaned gun you could hang the patch) to check for any rust, this will prove whether it was clean, and or dry.

[TCLouis]

Been shooting front stuffers since the 60s, flinchlocks at that and he had one statement . . .

"The cleaning solution must have had hydrogen peroxide in it"

[waksupi]

Been shooting front stuffers since the 60s, flinchlocks at that and he had one statement . . .

"The cleaning solution must have had hydrogen peroxide in it"

That was my first thought, but have repeated myself so many times about it, I don't bother anymore.

[Boerrancher]

Alright TC, Ric,

What is the deal with Hydrogen Peroxide? I have heard of people using it in their MLs but I know what it did to my hide as a kid, so there was no way I was ever going to dump any of it down the bores of my good rifles or bad ones for that matter.

Best wishes,

Joe

[waksupi]

It's an oxidizer, Joe.

[Black Powder Bill]

I've found 2 things screw me up.
1. Patch to big
2. Using one of those button style jags on a ramrod as they have no allowance (taper) to allow th epatch to fold up behind the jag head.

[Boerrancher]

It's an oxidizer, Joe.

Well yeah.... I was looking for some great wisdom besides the obvious. Though I have known many people in my life time who spend so much time studying the details that they don't see the blatantly obvious until it brutally beats them about the head and ears, and then oft times they are too injured either mentally or physically to see what happened.

I fully understand what oxidizers are and do, and that would explain why that solvent rusted as it dried. I would never have dreamed of putting H2O2 in a cleaning solution that is designed to remove a carbon and salt residue from steel that has already been partially oxidized. That is only asking for instant trouble, and I got it.

From this point on I am going to stick with my water, soap, and WD-40 to clean my black powder front loaders. It has gotten me by for around 30 years with no hitches or problems what so ever. I know it works, my guns don't rust, I don't get patches, jags, and rods stuck in the bore, and after I am done cleaning them I can store them for nearly 20 years and still have a gun that looks as nice as it did when I put it away. The same goes for patch lube. First load in, will either be bear grease, deer tallow, mink oil, or some other natural lipid, and from then on the rest of the day spit patches. Even in the winter I am not worried about a spit patch freezing, because once the trigger is pulled things will warm up in a hurry inside the barrel.

Thanks again fellas for all of the thoughts and suggestions that you have given me, for the next time I have a major brain fart and do something really, really, stupid. I am glad I have you fellas around to save my bacon when it is in the fire.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Longwood]

I've found 2 things screw me up.
1. Patch to big
2. Using one of those button style jags on a ramrod as they have no allowance (taper) to allow th epatch to fold up behind the jag head.

Chuck it up in a drill press or lathe. and take off a little metal on all of the ridges except the very end one.
It takes more patches But I did not get any more stuck ones.

[Hiwall55]

had to shoot my Jag out when the end of my ramrod came off in my bore, used just a couple of grains of powder ,shot it in the ground and had to dig about a foot to retrieve them.Boerrancher, I picked up a nice Ramrod for my Crockett at Track of the Wolf if yours is messed up

[Boerrancher]

I picked up a nice Ramrod for my Crockett at Track of the Wolf if yours is messed up

Thanks for the info, but I fixed mine. It was nothing that the smooth concrete basement floor and about 20 minutes with a rubber mallet couldn't cure. I think it is straighter now than it was when it was new.

Best wishes,

Joe