9mm leaded horribly!!

[Link23]

I went to the range today with a new to me Taurus 99 AL (a ber M9 clone with a Alm frame)6 inch barrel,

Here is the thing i was at KY north east range and i had about 5 or 600 rounds of 9mm they were not sized, the read .3595 after seated and crimped and pulled and measured the alloy was 50/50 ww and range lead, 2 VERY light coats of 45/45/10 seated to 1.110 with 3.8 grain of clays powder it was the LEE 6 cavity TL 124 LRN grn

at 21 yards the bullets were going in a 12 inch group hitting completely sideways at 98 yards it was about 15 FOOT groups!!!
i dug up some of the bullets from the hard hard dirt and i could not even see any of the TL grooves!! how could gas cutting be that bad? the bullets are WELL larger than the bore (.3575) im lost.

the lead was so bad that i could not even see the rifling from about an inch past the chamber to the muzzle was my alloy to soft or i think i might have not put enough lube on the bullets since it was almost clear on the boolit! PLEASE help!!

Link23:killingpc

[MtGun44]

"2 VERY light coats of 45/45/10" - 9mm stresses up the TL lube system pretty seriously, I
suspect that is your problem. TL is a marginal system at best.

Try a real lube as the first issue, but I think you'll need the 356-120-TC with a real lube
groove, too.

Bill

[TheBigBang]

"i dug up some of the bullets from the hard hard dirt and i could not even see any of the TL grooves!! how could gas cutting be that bad?"

That's not gas cutting, as the lead builds up in the barrel, it swages the bullets down & rips pieces off them. I don't "do" the tumble lube thing & have not used the 45/45/10 you speak of, but your description of the gun's performance & the condition of the barrel are EXACTLY the results I would expect to see if you told me you were shooting cast with no lube at all! I suspect your "VERY light" coats of that lube were a bit TOO light!

[HeavyMetal]

TL fairy strikes again!

Never was happy with tumble lube system, this is why!

[gwpercle]

Get all the gunk cleaned out your barrel and start over .
You want a proper 9 mm boolit, with a lube groove, like the Lee 356-120-TC,
size it to .356 ( .3595 is too much over sized ) fill the lube groove with a good solid lube not tumble lubed. Load up a few and try again if you still get leading a harder alloy - more wheel weights and less range lead - might do the trick. I use straight wheel weight alloy for my 9 mm.

Sometimes the 9 mm can be a bit tricky to load for, it operates at a higher pressure and cast boolits need to be able to stand up to the pressure and velocity it generates.

gary

[Cherokee]

Sounds like lube failure, and since the boollits were so oversize, the trip into the barrel squeezed the boollit so much the ripples (TL groves) were wipped out along with what lube was there. Never used the TL system so I'm guessing you need a boolits more like .356 or .357 with more whatever lube you were using. I use that Lee boolit for conventional lube from a harder alloy and its shoots fine in my 9mm's. I'm surprised the Taurus would chamber a rounds with .3595 boolits, I always used .356 or .3565 in my PT99.

I know it sucks when your first effort doesn't work out but don't give up. Try our suggestions.

[Floydster]

I use the 356- 120-TC, I gave up on the 45/45/10, it does not work!!!!
I use the alox from Lee with three heavy coats, never any leading, the bullets are brown with lube.
I use this same lube in all my pistols from 9mm to 44 mag, works foe me!!!

[390ish]

Stay away from TL boolits in 9mm. The 120s will work great. Just pan lube. I guess you could tumble them if you wanted to.

[R.M.]

Another leading problem with Clays as the powder. Hmmmm, I think there might be something to it.

[Moonie]

I get no leading in my 45 loads using 45/45/10 and Clays, granted it isn't the higher pressure 9mm but not so sure it would be a Clays problem.

[TheBigBang]

Another leading problem with Clays as the powder. Hmmmm, I think there might be something to it.

You'll get a leading problem with ANY powder if there's no (or insufficient) lube on the bullets!

[Tomuchiron]

"9mm they were not sized" ( wonder what size they started as)
"read .3595 after seated and crimped and pulled " (1st sizing )
"WELL larger than the bore (.3575) im lost." (Bore should be .355)

Most Standard 9mm jacketed measure .355
Most manuals show .356 for cast lead in 9mm
Most shooters resize to 356
Me thinks your to large by 3.5 thousandths.
Your barrel may be Irregular by now. (bulged)


Mike

[TheBigBang]

"9mm they were not sized" ( wonder what size they started as)
"read .3595 after seated and crimped and pulled " (1st sizing )
"WELL larger than the bore (.3575) im lost." (Bore should be .355)

Most Standard 9mm jacketed measure .355
Most manuals show .356 for cast lead in 9mm
Most shooters resize to 356
Me thinks your to large by 3.5 thousandths.
Your barrel may be Irregular by now. (bulged)


Mike

Because the manual shows .356 for cast in 9mm, doesn't mean it's the best size for a particular gun (guns can't read). *IF* he's properly slugged HIS bore, HE knows better than the manual what HIS bore diameter is. As for "most shooter's" resizing to .356 - well, you'd had have to poll EVERY shooter currently alive who resizes their bullets to know if that were correct, I think most shooters who cast their own bullets & want the best possible results slug their bores & size accordingly. *IF* he's measured his bore correctly, his bullets were actually only .002 over bore diameter & I don't think that's going to bulge his barrel. I wouldn't discourage anyone from reading the manuals, but they are a starting point & you must remember that every gun can vary considerably from it's "nominal" specifications. Me thinks you may rely on the manuals too much.

[FergusonTO35]

I've been shooting that boolit in my Ruger 9mm's for quite awhile. I load 'em as cast, tumble lube with liquid alox, and use a mild but not light charge of Unique or Accurate #5. I suspect your gun just is not getting along with the powder, lube, or both. I would start by slugging your bore to ensure that the groove diameter is within spec, .355-.356. If that checks out I would load up 20-30 rounds with the same powder and charge but this time give the boolits a thick coat of Lee liquid alox. If the bore is within spec the gun should now shoot decently and not lead or keyhole.

If the problem continues, or at least diminishes I would try a slower powder. You may be getting a pressure spike in this particular combo of load and gun. I have had problems with poor accuracy and some leading when I tried this boolit with Accurate #2, a fast burning powder. Never had any problems at all with the slower Accurate #5 and Unique.

[parrott1969]

The whole 9mm thing has caused me to pull out my hair. I blame trying to load 9mm boolits for my baldness! Everyone says "9mm is hard to load for because of its high pressure". Personally, I think everyone is wrong and the problem with 9mm's is the twist rate. The 40 S&W works at the same pressure as the 40 sw and loading for it has not been a problem for me. However, the 40 SW has a twist rate of 1 in 16, while 9mm uses 1 in 10. The closest that I have come to success was using a lone wolf 9mm conversion barrel in my glock 27. It has a 1-16 twist and I had very little, if any leading. To me this quantifies my hypothisies.

And to all the nitt pickers, you know who you are. No I can not spell. Furthermore, we rednecks SHOULD NOT HAVE TO TRY AND USE THEM BIG WORDS!

[rintinglen]

What you have described is exactly what we would expect to see with a catastophic lube failure.

One of the few generally held opinions about casting and lubes is that "one or 2 light coats" of a tumble lube is adequate. That is not my experience.

I use 45/45/10 recluse now, I have used LLA for many years before that. It works best when the coating is thick. I use two thick coats and have had sucess at velocities up to 2300 fps. If the boolits aren't brownish, you haven't used enough. This is particularly the case with higher pressure rounds.

[MT Gianni]

The whole 9mm thing has caused me to pull out my hair. I blame trying to load 9mm boolits for my baldness! Everyone says "9mm is hard to load for because of its high pressure". Personally, I think everyone is wrong and the problem with 9mm's is the twist rate. The 40 S&W works at the same pressure as the 40 sw and loading for it has not been a problem for me. However, the 40 SW has a twist rate of 1 in 16, while 9mm uses 1 in 10. The closest that I have come to success was using a lone wolf 9mm conversion barrel in my glock 27. It has a 1-16 twist and I had very little, if any leading. To me this quantifies my hypothisies.

And to all the nitt pickers, you know who you are. No I can not spell. Furthermore, we rednecks SHOULD NOT HAVE TO TRY AND USE THEM BIG WORDS!

Al9.63 has said for at least 10 years that one needs to treat the 9mm like a rifle with cast. Doing that will help things. That means fit, lube, pressures and rate of twist as well as alloy.
For me that means excluding tl bullets.

[Shiloh]

What you have described is exactly what we would expect to see with a catastophic lube failure.

One of the few generally held opinions about casting and lubes is that "one or 2 light coats" of a tumble lube is adequate. That is not my experience.

I use 45/45/10 recluse now, I have used LLA for many years before that. It works best when the coating is thick. I use two thick coats and have had sucess at velocities up to 2300 fps. If the boolits aren't brownish, you haven't used enough. This is particularly the case with higher pressure rounds.

Just the opposite for me.

Properly sizes conventional lube groove boolits with a thin coat of LLA or Larsen's equivelent, works great. These are pistol boolits at middle of the road velocities.

Shiloh

[Willee]

Link23, I am shooting that same boolit in a Ruger single action and my Glock 24 (lone wolf conversion barrel).
I cast mine using WW alloy and water quenched them to add some hardness.

I ran them thru the lyman sizer to .358" and lubed with RCBS green.

Crony shows ~900 FPS and I get very little leading.

I agree with the others that think the lube is the cause of your problems.

Willee

[MtGun44]

The recommendation to size to .356 is WAY off base for cast. Most find that .357 or .358
are required. The suggestion of a bulged barrel (implied due to oversized cast boolit) is
absolutely ridiculous.

Strongly suggest obtaining some 356-120-TC boolits sized to .357 or .358, pan lube with
NRA 50-50 and try them over a medium load of Unique.

Bill

[NuJudge]

Find out what your groove diameter is, then load a couple dummy cartridges with bullets that are .001" larger than that and see if they will feed and chamber.

My Beretta 9mm barrels are all just under .358" groove diameter. I give them .359" bullets which feed and chamber freely in my Beretta barrels.

I have a FN HiPower which also has big groove diameter, but will not chamber a cartridge with a bullet over .356". I'm stuck with just jacketed bullets there.

[Griz44mag]

9mm is a real basket case to get cast to work right. I ran the gambit of weights, powders, and sizes to get mine to run right with cast. I now cast 124gr with a single groove, size to .357 for one gun and .356 for the other. AA#5 works great in both. A big part of casting and reloading is the enjoyment of a good challenge like 9mm. When you finally get it all figured out it will be specific for THAT ONE GUN. If you have 2 guns, then the fun starts all over again.