Pure Lead -- Casting vs. Swaging

[H.Callahan]

I am just spit balling here, but after reading a number of threads about about the "FBI load" and good defense loads for the 38, hollowbased wadcutters loaded backwards, etc., a question crossed my mind.

As in many parts of the country, lead based WW are getting harder to find. Currently, at least, pure lead is somewhat available at "reasonable" (yeah, right...) prices. In the factory loadings of the FBI load and wadcutter loads are assembled using swagged bullets, presumably out of pure, or near pure lead. I am also seen factory produced swagged bullets being recommended to those reloaders that don't manufacture their own projectiles. These factory loads and swagged components have always shot well in most of my guns with little or no leading -- even with the somewhat disconcerting lube that seem to be on those puppies.

The question that rolls around in my mind is what is the difference between a cast boolit and a swagged one that would dictate the use of relatively hard alloys, plus even water hardening them to get performance similar to those (near?) pure bullets that are factory produced. There seems to be a fair amount of focus on producing hard bullets for use. Why aren't we investigating the softer end of the spectrum? Is there any reason why a properly sized and lubed cast pure lead (ok, I'll concede maybe some tin added for mold fillout purposes only) boolits perform as well as their swagged counterparts?

[captaint]

H - Some of us DO attempt to use softer alloys. And some of us succeed. I always start with 50/50 WW & Pb. I only go harder if I HAVE to. And normally, I don't. This HARD boolit business is bunk. It's all about the advertising and sales of comercially cast boolits. I generally have more Pb than WW around, so - The more Pb I can use, the happier I am.

One other thing - I don't water drop anything. enjoy Mike

[TheBigBang]

Do not assume that non-jacketed swaged bullets made for smokeless powder loads are pure or nearly pure lead. Factory swaging equipment is quite powerful & can form alloys considerably harder than pure lead. Now, the swaged bullets aren't going to be as hard as the harder side of "hard cast" & indeed, while many people like to have VERY hard bullets even water dropping & oven heat treating for extreme hardness (and often being very happy with the results) that doesn't mean it's necessary (but if it makes them happy...). Truly pure lead is quite soft, however - much softer than "as cast" WW or lead with just a couple percent tin. I know what you're thinking H.Callahan, "can I just cast my boolits out of pure lead & go on shooting"? But being that lead removal can be a REAL pain, you've got to ask yourself this question - "do I feel lucky"? Well do ya H.Callahan? And if you really wanna try pure lead in your guns - go ahead, MAKE MY DAY!!!

[williamwaco]

The question that rolls around in my mind is what is the difference between a cast boolit and a swagged one that would dictate the use of relatively hard alloys, plus even water hardening them to get performance similar to those (near?) pure bullets that are factory produced. There seems to be a fair amount of focus on producing hard bullets for use. Why aren't we investigating the softer end of the spectrum? Is there any reason why a properly sized and lubed cast pure lead (ok, I'll concede maybe some tin added for mold fillout purposes only) boolits perform as well as their swagged counterparts?

Yes there is and it is sorely misplaced.

We aren't "investigating" softer alloys because most of the old timers already know they are superior. A few evenings of reading posts here will convince you that MANY members here fume over the "Hard Cast" adjective.

Yes there is. Swaged bullets are much more uniform than the very best cast bullets. Soft lead is less expensive, easier to swage and in general makes more accurate bullets.

There are those here would disagree with this claim but I will simply let Winchester, Remington, Federal, etc. witness to my claim with their of billions of pure lead target bullets they have produced in the past 100 years. They compete for billions of dollars in sales. If a little antimony would make those bullets more accurate, they would use it.

One more thing. For my most accurate .38 special loads, I use soft cast wad cutters as cores and then swage them into 148 grain hollow points. This extra step reduces my group sizes by 50%

.

[runfiverun]

hornady uses 5% antimony in their swaged bullets.
win and rem use 40-1 in many of their factory 45 colt type ammo.
commercial casters are where the super duper hard cast claims come from.
actually the term hard cast is used when antimony is in the alloy.
there is a place for hard alloys and soft ones too, match things up according to what you want the boolit to do on target.

[44man]

Swaged is OK but remember grease grooves can not be made so boolits are coated like a .22 boolit. Some boolits are knurled to hold lube.
Soft boolits in a revolver are never as good as what the gun itself needs.
Old stuff was a transition from BP to smokeless. We are in the here and now, not 100 years ago.

[fredj338]

For 900fps/low pressure rounds, pure lead works fine. So a 158grLHPSWC, "FBI LOAD", is a good performer. Casting hard means no expansion, kind of defeating the LHP idea. The Speer swaged 158grLHP is a good bullet for duplicating the FBI load. The inverted HBWC, fine for destructive varmint hunting, but a pretty poor performer as a SD load. Too much expansion too soon & shallow penetration.
When I cast LHP, I use a soft alloy of 25-1 lead/tin. It runs fine to 1200fps or so, never seen the need to go hotter.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/9mm-136-1200.jpg

[noylj]

As mentioned, most swaged bullets offered commercially are NOT pure lead. Some, according to the company's literature, are actually 2/6/92. I think this is like the 20BHN commercial cast bullets--less shipping damage.
Swaged bullets, however, can not easily have lube grooves. They are either wax or moly-kote lubed as-swaged or a cannelure is pressed into the bearing surface in a separate operation to hold a little more lube.
The lubes used, at least in my guns, are not as versatile as LLA and velocity is limited to 1100-1200fps max before complete lube failure (and many fail at about 950fps).
Despite being more consistent in shape and weight than cast, I have not seen any better accuracy in those cartridges that perform well with cast bullets.
For example, my S&W M52s will not shoot below about 2.5" at 25 yards with any cast wadcutter, but will shoot most swaged HBWCs well under 2.5" and, with Remington's fantastic HBWCs, under 1.5". However, in my revolvers, the cast wadcutters are as accurate or more accurate than swaged.
Likewise, in .45 Auto, some of the ugliest cast bullets shoot better than really well-filled out and "beautiful" cast or swaged bullets. I notice a slight shift in the "optimum" charge weight for swaged and cast 200gn L-SWCs, but overall accuracy is the same.

[rintinglen]

Back when I shot PPC, my match loads were Speer or Remington 148 grain SWAGED HBWC bullets over 2.9 grains of Bullseye. In my Python, those grouped at just about 2 1/2 MOA, whereas my cast 148 wadcutters ran 3-4 MOA from a sand bag rest. I shot my own stuff for practice, but for fortune and glory, I went with the factory stampings. A properly swaged bullet has no voids, is completely filled out, and its weight is more consistent.
However, I quickly learned not to trust the lube on the factory swaged bullets. As soon as velocities climbed much over 850 fps, leading began to be a problem. At .357 Magnum Levels, it stopped being a problem and became a disaster.

[mdi]

H - Some of us DO attempt to use softer alloys. And some of us succeed. I always start with 50/50 WW & Pb. I only go harder if I HAVE to. And normally, I don't. This HARD boolit business is bunk. It's all about the advertising and sales of comercially cast boolits. I generally have more Pb than WW around, so - The more Pb I can use, the happier I am.

One other thing - I don't water drop anything. enjoy Mike

In 100% agreement. Bullet casters are profiting on ignorance. The "harder is better" wives tale just won't go away, and new users want "hard cast" so the commercial casters give them what they want...:roll:

[David2011]

+1 for what rintinglen said. The Speer swaged HBHP is extremely soft. I've shot a bunch of them with Bullseye as well with the same conclusions. Accuracy was only fair and you can't drive them very fast.

OTOH, our cast wadcutters lubed with Javelina were supremely accurate at PPC distances. The alloy was WW+ 5% monotype. Straight WW would have been plenty hard but they looked so nice with the mono added.

David