38 special-best defense boolit?

[mrs.goodsteel]

I have a S&W model 36 snubby in 38 special as a self defense weapon. What is the best cast lead boolit to use for self defense purposes? ;)

[geargnasher]

The one with which you can best hit a bad guy is what I'd say. Full or semi-wadcutters are good, so are WFNs. Hollow points and round noses aren't the best choice, but better than nothing.

Gear

[MT Gianni]

A flat pointed bullet that allows you to recover for a second shot quickly.

[MBTcustom]

The gun in hand is the right one to use, and the same goes for the ammo that it's loaded with, but I agree with Geargnasher.
You look very familiar, have we met?

[Love Life]

Agree with the above. I would go with either a wadcutter or semi-wadcutter design. For my snubbie I cast them from 20:1 lead:tin.

[reloader28]

I like SWC but the cheap LEE 158gr RF shoots great from everything I tried it in. Drops at 165gr from mine. I cut the bevel base off.
I like the looks of RF boolits.

[Catshooter]

Wadcutter or semi-wadcutter, as above. Round flats in the speed strip or speed loaders as they are much easier to actually get into the gun.

Goodsteel,

You shouldn't try to pick up chicks here, it's bad form. :)

Mrs,

Welcome to the forum!


Cat

[WGSNewnan]

158 gr. swc gc hp. "fbi load" at +p pressures. erik makes this mold.

[Lefty SRH]

I like a SWC HP 158gr

[zxcvbob]

I bought 500 soft swaged 158 grain SWCHP's a few years ago and probably have 400 left. When I run out of those, it'll be a toss-up between 148 grain DEWC's and Lee 158-RF's.

[mrs.goodsteel]

Thank y'all very much for replies. My husband already has a Lee 158 SWC, but I was curious about carrying hollow-points in the summertime. There was a time when we would use ONLY jacketed bullets in our self defense guns but my husband found cast boolits and it reformed our thoughts on carry ammo.

[725]

I'd say a 158 SWC moving as fast as is comfortable for you. Flamethrower loads are fine if you hit the target and recover for a quick second shot. I prefer SWC's over SWC HP"s for the ability to penetrate. I want a lot of air in and a lot of blood out, and the in-between gooey. Same for hunting. I pray you never need it but there you are.

[MrXrings]

I'd sure hate to get hit with a wadcutter in forehead. I can picture it.

[mrs.goodsteel]

Thanks 725, that is my prayer too! I just want to always keep myself and my daughter protected when we go out.

[mpmarty]

Back in the old days when I packed a 38 spl. because I had no choice I used hollow base wad cutters loaded "backwards". Off duty it was 45acp or nothing.

[olafhardt]

Mrs. Goodsteel, do you clean all those squrrels that goodsteel kills?

[Bigslug]

The heaviest semi wadcutter your barrel will stabilize with a moderate powder charge will serve you well. Smiths will stabilize 200's, but from what I've heard, 180's are about as heavy as some Rugers and Tauri will keep going nose-first

The main problem with full wadcutters is reloading them in a hurry.

[rexherring]

I've been loading the Lee 158 SWC with a +P load of W 231 or AA#2 for the Taurus snubby. My buddies wife says they kick a little more than she'd like so I did load her some non-+P loads that she now likes and carries all the time.

[fcvan]

Long ago, a buddy carried his M36 with wadcutters. He needed them once and at very close range. It was a fight stopper, he (and the bad guy) survived but it only took one in the torso to end the conflict. The only problem with wadcutters is loading with or without speedloaders. For years, I used the 125Gr RN as my standard .38 load especially in my J frame. I would like to get the 125RF as it has a decent meplat but also the rounded nose which aids reloading. I have the 158RF but have only shot it through my K frame. My wife won't let me have my J frame back. She started shooting it with the 105SWC and liked it too much. If I had to design a boolit it would be a 140RF which I think would be a good balance of weight and profile. Heck, I think it could be a good dual purpose for .38 and 9MM. Frank

[Echo]

I've had no experience in this field, but my belief is that, for self defense purposes, for civilians, the wadcutter is the best boolit. Lets in lots of air, and lets out lots of blood. And in civilian SD situations, one should not consider reloadability - shoot to end the situation, and reloading won't be necessary. If reloading IS necessary - RUN!

[MtGun44]

Here's what I have for my snub .38 Spl S&W.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=161&pictureid=3952

You can get 158 gr LHP ammo from either Win or Rem ( I forget which) which will do about
this same thing, or cast your own.

Bill

[L1A1Rocker]

The group buy is now closed but I really like this one:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=146731

[smokeywolf]

Mrs. goodsteel,

At the risk of sounding like the chauvinist that I am, listen to your husband. He'll make sure your carrying the best ammo for your gun and whatever situation(s) may pose the greatest risk to you.
He won't steer you wrong.

Real nice to see the forum becoming a family affair.

smokeywolf

[geargnasher]

The gun in hand is the right one to use, and the same goes for the ammo that it's loaded with, but I agree with Geargnasher.
You look very familiar, have we met?

Not yet, but hopefully some day that will change! Mrs Geargnasher packs a Model 36 S&W Chief's Special with the hammer spur ground off, a true "last resort" defense when no other choice is left. Talk of speed-loading and boolit stability makes me wonder if we're really talking personal defense or something else. What I want is something that will reach just a little further than a bad guy with a knife. A handgun isn't the key to self defense, it's a tool for use at the end of the last chapter of a good, 24-7 defensive plan/mindset when every possible alternative has been removed.

Gear

[Axton1]

Interesting posts.
My wife got a S & W Airweight in 38sp for a carry pistol - she liked it and wanted a light weight revolver to tote concealed in the purse. Nice piece but the light weight has the obvious drawback - heavy recoil. (Told her so, but - ya gotta learn the hard way sometimes.)
The gun is +P rated but, her accuracy with those was bad and follow-up shots were terrible. That's with store-bought +P ammo from 110g up to 158g (worst of the lot of course) Ended up loading some 125g semi-jacketed hollow points j-words at a medium to mid-top range of 38 special loads and she's happy with those. Pop cans and centers of targets don't stand a chance against her now! Never thought about just using a LSWC - she practices with those and is darn good with them........... Have always thought the HP was the way to go with self defence stuff.......
This will give me a little food for thought for awhile.......gonna chew on it a bit.......
A1

[Bret4207]

I like the Lyman 358477 over 5.0 Unique. Reliable, simple, cheap, shoots good.

[Char-Gar]

Like others I like the cast WC or SWC shot as fast as you can with good control and shot placement while not over stressing the individual handgun.

[mrs.goodsteel]

Mrs. Goodsteel, do you clean all those squrrels that goodsteel kills?

Heck no! I told him with the squirrels~ you kill it, you clean it!~

:popcorn:

[FergusonTO35]

All my .38 revolvers, full size and snubby, are loaded with a hard round nose flat point boolit with 5.7 grains of AA #5. This load duplicates the old FBI +P load (870 fps) but is standard pressure. Its very easy to shoot in my S&W 10-5 and Ruger Service Six but is a handful in my Charter Arms Undercover. I'm currently working on a snubby specific load with Hodgdon Titegroup.

[MBTcustom]

Heck no! I told him with the squirrels~ you kill it, you clean it!~
And I tell her, I clean it you cook it! Its a good system.
Mrs. goodsteel isn't afraid of skinning deer though if the situation calls for it.
I have seen several folks on the board have HPed a semi-wad cutter. Is that just for S&G? Hard for me to see how you can improve on a the normal design, especially with the slow moving 38spc.

[StrawHat]

I have molds that cast RN, RNFP, WC, SWC, and SWCHP. When I carried my 3" M36, I used full wadcutters, cast a bit hard and loaded to 900 fps. Used the same load for hunting and defense. It worked. As far as reloads with full wadcutters, PPC shooters routinely get 12 shots in 25 seconds, my dept qualifying course called for the 12 to be shot in 12 seconds. Never had any problems reloading WCs or others. Practice is the key.

[mdi]

I keep my house gun (2" .38) stoked with 148 gr. double ended wadcutters over a stiff load of W231. I've never had to use them on a human, but they do well in newspaper and are accurate out to 15 yards (I shoot the bullets under a milder load out to about 25 yards in my 2" .38 and 4" 357. with good accuracy). I've read/seen gel tests and a similar load penetrates about 13" with a straight 3/8" wound channel.

[soldierbilly1]

All my .38 revolvers, full size and snubby, are loaded with a hard round nose flat point boolit with 5.7 grains of AA #5. This load duplicates the old FBI +P load (870 fps) but is standard pressure. Its very easy to shoot in my S&W 10-5 and Ruger Service Six but is a handful in my Charter Arms Undercover. I'm currently working on a snubby specific load with Hodgdon Titegroup.

I dont have a snubby yet, but I plan on "testing" using the 158 gr Hornady XTP jword bullets against the Lee 158 gr RNFP's in my M15 4". I want to use some soaked phone books, hopefully in my backyard. (4th of July, maybe).
Kinda my official home defender load.
billy boy

[bob208]

hallow base wadcutters loaded backwards. real good to 7 yds.

[MasS&W]

Go with a 180 grain flat point. Out of a short barrel velocity is not going to be your saving grace. A big meplat and maximum sectional density from a flat point will give you the biggest bang for your buck.

[EDK]

The meplat (flat point) does the damage. Use full wadcutters loaded to a level that you are comfortable with...or even slightly less powerful. They're accurate to the range that most people shoot at. Most of my shooting is at 25 yards and they are as accurate as semi-wadcutters, etc at that distance.

I even use full wadcutters in my 44 Magnums....need to get busy with the 45 mould and 45 ACP Smith & Wessons.

:redneck::cbpour:

[MtGun44]

Goodsteel said:

"Hard for me to see how you can improve on a the normal design, especially with the slow moving 38spc."

Hmm. It seems pretty obvious to me that a huge mushroom with about
3 times the area is a big improvement. That load was fired from the 342 with a 1 7/8" bbl
and the penetration in wet phone books is right at half of what they get in ballistic
gelatin, so with the measurement to base not the front, I'd expect 10" penetration
with that load.

Hard for me to see how this isn't a huge improvement for self defense over a plain old
SWC.

Bill

[geargnasher]

I'm still in the full-wadcutter camp with a .38 Special, but I'm not a ballistic expert. All I know is a HP will dump energy way faster than a less or non-expanding boolit, and it may dump it too fast in some instances. I think the idea of soft HP SWCs in the summer and harder solids in "jacket weather" is a good one.

Gear

[TXBRILL]

While I am certainly not trying to start a flame war I respectfully disagree with all the above answers. I carry in my J frame 158 grain Remington Lead SWC's. I bought 1 box many years ago and still have it. Periodically I shoot the ones in the gun and replace them with new ones.

I believe that only factory loaded ammo should be in your firearm when you are actually carrying it. I reload and shoot many thousands of round every year but ony carry with factory loads. The reason why is, say I am unlucky enough to actually use my firearm in defense and kill or injure someone. The odds are that I will atleast have my case will brought before a Grand jury. Now lets say I get some overzealous prosicutor he will be able to state that I was using " Custom Loads" that were designed especially for killing, while we all know that is malarky why give him or some ignorant jury the chance to believe him. remember the general public believes that every gun we commonly call an "automatic" is some sort of evil machine gun.

I am also not a lawyer it just seems to make sense me...

[35remington]

TXBRILL, that particular argument against handloads has been discredited.

Reason being that if you're using a 357 with factory loads, you can be called "bloodthirsty" because you were carrying a magnum with hollow points. Or a .44.

The prosecutor could say you should have been shooting a .32 instead. The claim of the "factory loads only" adherents is now "dissimilar gunshot powder residue" not "bloodthirsty handloader." They gave that argument up when its ridiculousness was pointed out.

"Dissimilar gunshot residue" is pretty thin as well.

[TXBRILL]

I still maintain why give them anything at all. Most things said againt guns, ammo, and their owners are pure fabrication anyway. The end result is factory ammo is more then sufficient to get the job done and the cost of a box every couple of years is pennies compared to an attorney...but to each their own, I am not trying to win an argument just point out how possibly to avoid a problem if you are forced to use your firearm.

[geargnasher]

When will the Ayoob BS ever stop?

If you have to shoot somebody, the kind of ammo you use is going to be the least of your worries.

Gear

[MBTcustom]

All hail Ayoob! Geez, I wish I had that kind of clout! Just make up BS and intelligent gun-owners and reloaders accept it hook worm and sinker.
But, because that argument makes so much sense, I will not drive a red car. A red car gives off that "sporty" look, so if I get rear ended, the judge will surly believe that I was at fault somehow.

[tonyjones]

LBT 140 grain WFN!

[MBTcustom]

I seriously need to do some penetration tests with the Lee SWC TL boolits I have. My wifes little model 36 is scary accurate with those. I'm talkin' paper plate at 50 yards off-hand. I was considering making Mrs.goodsteel a SWC HP mold, might do it anyway for S&G.

[bob208]

goodsteel does that include red harleys too? if it does i am in deep trouble.
on another site they were trying to get people to go to a ayoob seminar about selfdefense.the price was $400 a head.

[bearcove]

358432 160 gr It is a wad cutter with a bit of a nose. Lots of molds available cheap.

In my eyes its an economy 358 160gr WFN.

[FergusonTO35]

If the ammo saves my life and/or the life of my loved ones thats all I'm concerned with. I feel way better carrying the same ammo that I practice with so I carry reloads in all my guns except the .32 Auto (haven't worked up anything for that one yet).

[L1A1Rocker]

While I am certainly not trying to start a flame war I respectfully disagree with all the above answers. I carry in my J frame 158 grain Remington Lead SWC's. I bought 1 box many years ago and still have it. Periodically I shoot the ones in the gun and replace them with new ones.

I believe that only factory loaded ammo should be in your firearm when you are actually carrying it. I reload and shoot many thousands of round every year but ony carry with factory loads. The reason why is, say I am unlucky enough to actually use my firearm in defense and kill or injure someone. The odds are that I will atleast have my case will brought before a Grand jury. Now lets say I get some overzealous prosicutor he will be able to state that I was using " Custom Loads" that were designed especially for killing, while we all know that is malarky why give him or some ignorant jury the chance to believe him. remember the general public believes that every gun we commonly call an "automatic" is some sort of evil machine gun.

I am also not a lawyer it just seems to make sense me...

I've been of that belief since I started carrying in 1995 (when TX got It's CHL law). I've very recently come to believing that reloads are OK too. The reason being? Someone asked me to name them one case where reloads were an issue in a self defense shooting. I cannot find one, anywhere.

Now I still carry the zinc "IQ" line of bullets from Agilla in my Officer's ACP. I do this simple because I think they are the best damn self defense bullet ever made for daily carry. I only wish that we could get a mould design that would duplicate this zinc round.

[9.3X62AL]

Welcome to the asylum, Mrs. Goodsteel!

I prefer any round-flatnose or semi-wadcutter weighing between 140-160 grains, and run at the highest velocity that safe internal ballistics and your ability to control recoil can enable. There are no "magic bullets"--just good or poor shot placement.

Detective--"Ma'am, why did you shoot the assailant 15 times?"

Attack Survivor--"I only had 2 speed-loaders."

[looseprojectile]

You might have Mr. Good load you up some light boolits such as a 9mm 110 - 115 grain boolit at higher velocity and see if the lesser recoil is to your liking.
Most 9mm boolits drop from the mould at .357" or there abouts and work fine.
The 38 special with 110 grain hollow point jacketed bullets is a really good stopper when loaded to +P+ and recoils hardly at all.
Personally I like the heavier boolits but I can't discount the effectiveness of high velocity along with the lighter recoil.
Most of my experience is with the .357 magnum.

Welcome to Cast Boolits.


Life is good

[bearcove]

While I am certainly not trying to start a flame war I respectfully disagree with all the above answers. I carry in my J frame 158 grain Remington Lead SWC's. I bought 1 box many years ago and still have it. Periodically I shoot the ones in the gun and replace them with new ones.

I believe that only factory loaded ammo should be in your firearm when you are actually carrying it. I reload and shoot many thousands of round every year but ony carry with factory loads. The reason why is, say I am unlucky enough to actually use my firearm in defense and kill or injure someone. The odds are that I will atleast have my case will brought before a Grand jury. Now lets say I get some overzealous prosicutor he will be able to state that I was using " Custom Loads" that were designed especially for killing, while we all know that is malarky why give him or some ignorant jury the chance to believe him. remember the general public believes that every gun we commonly call an "automatic" is some sort of evil machine gun.

I am also not a lawyer it just seems to make sense me...

They are all made to kill something

[TNFrank]

I tried a 158gr SWC over 4.3grs of Unique in the 642 Airweight that I just traded for the PK380 that I now have and recoil was still more then I really wanted to put up with in a defensive situation. If you have trouble controlling your gun during recreational shooting then you'll dang sure have problems under stress.
At least you've got an all steel gun so that'll help with recoil a bit. Personally, I'd find something in the 125gr range with a large flat point, IIRC the RCBS "Cowboy" bullet is about those specs. Then load it up to whatever level you can comfortable shoot and that'll give you good accuracy. I had trouble saying on an 8"x12" piece of paper at 7 yards with the DAO 642 that I had but with the PK380 I can cut 2" groups all day long at that distance. Granted many will say that the "little" 380acp isn't the same power level as the 38spl that I had but I don't really care, power isn't any good if you can hit what you aim at. Good luck finding a load that'll work for you.

[garym1a2]

I would make your husband buy you a glock 19. I also here a wadcutter out of dead soft backwards expands a lot.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Well, I use hollow pointed full wadcutters (358091) in my SP101 just over 1300 fps. Cast in 98% Pb 2% Sn. They do expand. They shred gallon jugs of water wonderfully well.

My J-frame (early Mod 60) is loaded with 358087 cast 98/2 at 900 fps. It ruptures gallon jugs but does not shred them.

Both guns get carried in different situations. I've gone to carrying only the .38 358087 load in my spare speed loader. It seats flush and doesn't get as much lead rubbed off in my pocket. i even carry the .38s in the speed loader when I carry the SP101. The short 38s make for a faster reload.

[geargnasher]

Well, I use hollow pointed full wadcutters (358091) in my SP101 just over 1300 fps. Cast in 98% Pb 2% Sn. They do expand. They shred gallon jugs of water wonderfully well.

My J-frame (early Mod 60) is loaded with 358087 cast 98/2 at 900 fps. It ruptures gallon jugs but does not shred them.

Both guns get carried in different situations. I've gone to carrying only the .38 358087 load in my spare speed loader. It seats flush and doesn't get as much lead rubbed off in my pocket. i even carry the .38s in the speed loader when I carry the SP101. The short 38s make for a faster reload.

We're talking a 2" snubby .38 here, it ain't gonna make 1300 fps with anything.

Gear

[MBTcustom]

I use hollow pointed full wadcutters (358091) in my SP101 just over 1300 fps.
Dang! That sounds like a soupcan with a belly-button.:shock:

[cephas53]

Using 162 gr RCBS swc in mine. When researching loads years ago came across the "FBI' aka "Chicago" ana "NY" load. A search will bring up lots of info. Basically a lead swc load at moderate velocity. Also found 5 grs unique to be the ticket. Got a HBWC mold off of Mihec I'm tempted to try.

[MGySgt]

I carry a Ruger LCR on occasion. I either use the non +P Hornady Critial Defense or a HP I had made up.

358477 - normally 150 gr SWC. I had Buckshot make a SC mould into a HP. With 35 to 1 (tried for 40 to one, but) they come in at 133 grains.

Loaded with a good dose of Bullseye they clock over 900 FPS from the little Ruger barrel.

Accuracy is great out of any 38/357 I put them in and they really shred a 1 gallon milk jug. Watch for the splash back on that - from 5 feet I got soaked.

Hornady's in cold weather, the 358477 HP in the summer.

PS - why Bullseye vice Unique or 231? Muzzel flash. If you shoot one with 231 or Unique after dark - there will be no second shot - that muzzel flash is so big that you can't see for about 3 or 4 minutes.

I tested them on my range after dark. The Bullseye load still allowed me to put rounds on target after the first shot. 231 and Unique would not - I couldn't see the berm 15 ft in front of me let alone the target that was on it!

[Longwood]

I still maintain why give them anything at all. Most things said againt guns, ammo, and their owners are pure fabrication anyway. The end result is factory ammo is more then sufficient to get the job done and the cost of a box every couple of years is pennies compared to an attorney...but to each their own, I am not trying to win an argument just point out how possibly to avoid a problem if you are forced to use your firearm.

If you have that Avatar photo somewhere, I sure would like to share it.
I almost peed myself.
He looks like he is prepared, but not exactly happy.

[Longwood]

The backwards wad cutter was often called the best.
Someimes with a BB in the end.
I liked a stack of soft round (sorta squashed if fitting three) balls.

Then along came bad laws, Gloria Aldred and thousands more, money hungry "A" holes like her.

Just so you lurking, bottom dwelling, lawyers know, I have mine loaded with normal, everyday, factory ammo.

[375RUGER]

Carry the load that you can shoot the best.
When I met my wife she owned a .38 sp Taurus Titanium Lite 2" with internalcomp (magnaport). She hated to shoot it. The muzzle blast and kick was remarkable. That particular gun was stolen and I have sinced replaced it with similar but without the comp.

Since, I load I got her some Speer 110g JHPs and worked up a somewhat mild, accurate load. In wet news print they penetrated remarkably well and I felt as though they would be adequate for self defense, and she could handle this loading a lot better. Not tested on humans but they do kill very well. She rarely carried because of the gun, she still didn't like it.

At some point in time I eventually conviced her to shoot my 1911. She finally relented and shot it. It think we were married about 2- 2.5 years before she finally did.

I remember well the cringe on her face as she squeezed off that first shot--then the relaxation of relief and the exclamation of "that's not bad at all", followed by :Fire::Fire::Fire::Fire::Fire::Fire:-"can I shoot it some more?". The loads were 230g hardball, somewhere between mid and full power-I always load for accuracy not power.

She has her own 1911 now, and never leaves home without it-she is very confident in her ability with it, and I'm proud of her. I think she never wants to shoot a snubby again, she has a Vaquero .357 instead.

I carry the Taurus when i need a smaller profile. when I get all the 110g shot up I will load a lot heavier for it though.

Right now we both carry handloaded hardball ammo, but I'm awaiting the arrival of a MBT Limited Edition 230g HP Mould , so my carry loads might change in the future-we'll see.

On another point I think the scum suckers would be hard pressed to make a case that handloads are somehow more deadly than factory self defense offerings. Unless someone chose a powder/bullet combination that shot warp speed with flames that would melt wolframite and left a hole big enough to drive a stagecoach through-then they might have a case.

Afterall, we are using a means of sanctioned lethal force becasue of an immediate threat to our person.

[garym1a2]

Come to think of it a female with a large purse could fit a Glock 21SF or 22 no problem.

[geargnasher]

Come to think of it a female with a large purse could fit a Glock 21SF or 22 no problem.

Or for that matter, three or four hand grenades. :groner:

Gear

[MGySgt]

Too much colateral damage with a grenade :)

LEO might have an objection.

[H.Callahan]

Too much colateral damage with a grenade :)

LEO might have an objection.
Depends on who got "collateraled". In some neighborhoods, it might be viewed as a community service. :D

[zxcvbob]

or urban renewal.

[Muddydogs]

My carry rounds are Speer Gold Dots in my 380, 38 and 40, Hornady XTP's are also a good choice. When it comes to getting the job done all the test point to jacketed bullets out performing cast slugs and I want the best. Don't get me wrong I like cast bullets, the last defensive pistol class I took I burned up the last 100 rounds of factory .40 I purchased before getting back into reloading and then proceeded to shoot another 200 180 grain truncated cone .40 cal rounds out of the XD that I casted and loaded. I even load my own carry ammo but when it comes to carry rounds jacketed all the way baby.

[MBTcustom]

When it comes to getting the job done all the test point to jacketed bullets out performing cast slugs and I want the best.
No offense, but i will respectfully and emphatically disagree. You haven't seen my tests.
Cast boolots dont open into pretty little flowers, like jacketed, but it is my opinion that when it comes to inherent stopping power, energy transfer, and shock profile, cast wins every time.

[Judan_454]

I agree with you goodsteel I always thought that ballistic media test were alway bias to jacket bullets. When ever I see ballistic media test it does not have bone and cartillage, musle, ligaments. Most of the tests I see now tend do tests only with auto loading pistol calibers like 9mm,357sig,40SW,45 ACP. What about 44 special, 45 colt, 357 mag,41mag even 44 mag all these revolver calibers are good home defense and selfdefense calibers with the right load. I see the bullet and ammo manfacters pushing these bonded bullets at 40 dollars a pop for 20 rds, and gun manufacters pushing there 15 to 20 rd autoloading pistols and kind of saying you cant defend yourself with a 5 or 6 shot revolver. I like autoload pistols just as much as the next guy but the revolver are still viable selfdefense tools.

[waksupi]

I agree on the cast being better. Those jacketed bullets that open so pretty, very likely wouldn't get through a heavy coat. Cast will.

[MBTcustom]

I have hunted with cast boolits the past two years. I have been hunting with jacketed for the past 15 years.
I have observed much better performance out of slow cast boolits than from fast jacketed. It is true that cast boolits don't cause the same amount of internal damage that jacketed boolits do, but the effect that they have on game animals is stunning to say the least. I don't know why they are so effective, but the difference is indisputable. I was running just moderate loads, but after witnessing the effectiveness of the cast boolits, I was thinking that I could easily back off to an even more manageable load than what I was running and still have excellent effect.
This evidence changed my mind forever on cast boolits in defensive situations. They just plain work!

[part_timer]

I'm pretty fond of the 180 gr WFN that runs in the group buys from time to time.

[Judan_454]

Real life hunting or defensive situations are always better gauge of how bullet works than shooting into ballistic gel with 2 layers of demin in front of it.

[Johnny_Cyclone]

I have a S&W model 36 snubby in 38 special as a self defense weapon. What is the best cast lead boolit to use for self defense purposes?

I thought this article was pretty good:

.38 Special LSWCHP +P: Still a Top Load?

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38%20Special%20158gr%20LSWCHP.htm

I would imagine that closely replicating this load wouldn't be a bad place to start for what you're looking for.

[geargnasher]

I agree on the cast being better. Those jacketed bullets that open so pretty, very likely wouldn't get through a heavy coat. Cast will.

I agree. I think in this situation, and many others, cast boolits of the appropriate composition for the boolit shape loaded to the most practically effective and safe pressures will best do the job.

I still don't understand why people keep bringing up off-topic or irrelevant points here. We're not talking about a 1300 fps platform. We're not talking about a .40 S&W. The question didn't involve which gun was best to carry. The lady asked about .38 Special, which she already owns, and a snubby at that. Has anyone else on this thread ever actually shot something living with one (or more) of those whizbang JHPs in a 2" BBL .38? I have. They turn in to a plugged-up round nose with no expansion, have less "shock" than a flat nose of any design, and will bounce off a pig's skull like it was a rock. IMO the boolit needs to be lead, and it needs to have a meplat. I noticed that others here who've used .38s to kill things tend to feel the same way.

Ok, getting off of soapbox now.....

Gear

[edit] Johhny C. posted while I was ranting, good article there and good point IMO.

[Tracy]

Paco Kelly wrote a really good article about the 358430, 195 grain "Super Police" roundnose bullet. He likes it, as did some of the cops he used to work with. Paco has done tests that support the rumor that those bullets tumble in soft tissue, producing greater tissue destruction than if they traveled nose-first.

I have shot quite a few of those bullets in my 2" Taurus M85, loaded over a charge of AL8 (between Blue Dot and 2400) that gives 815 fps from my snubby. They destabilize by 50 yards, but are accurate at defensive ranges.

I used one in that same snubby to kill a hog with a downward-angling shot through the skull. Not only did it not bounce off the pig's skull; it exited and went several inches into the ground. Needless to say, it killed the pig instantly.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

welcome to the forum Mrs. goodsteel.
my suggestion to your original question.
start with what you have and from the quote below,
it sounds like you are ahead of the curve.
and accuracy is a very good thing,
right next to being comfortable with the gun and the load.
OH, also practice the point and shoot,
you'll almost never have time to actually aim the gun using
the sights in a deadly confrontation.


I seriously need to do some penetration tests with the Lee SWC TL boolits I have. My wifes little model 36 is scary accurate with those. I'm talkin' paper plate at 50 yards off-hand.
I assume these are the 158 gr. previously mentioned.
I don't have any killing experience with a 38s
But the standard heavyweight is where I'd start
and it sounds like you already have it.
Jon

[Jeffrey]

I know the question was about boolits, but self defense is too important an issue to limit the options.
An aquaintance is an emt. One evening, sitting around the fire, we started discussing gunshot wounds.
His observations were "a handgun is a handgun, a rifle is a rifle, and a shotgun just makes a mess. But there is this round out there... laser, razor.. something like that." "Glaser" I said, "The Glaser Safety Slug?" "Yeah, that's it." He replied. "Of all he torso hits I've seen with a Glaser, only two have made it to the hospital alive. The first was hit in the upper left chest. He made it into the operating room. The doctors opened him up, saw the damage, closed him up, let him die. There was nothing they could do. The second was a guy who tried to rob a woman. She had a handgun in her purse. She shot him in the lower abdomen to one side, blew his ***cheek clean off. No more *** on that side."
Glasers have a lot going for them: lack of overpenetration and ricochet hazard, but they are expensive. A little better than $2.00 each in a six round pack. I fired one through my 1911 to test function. They are my summer carry round. Federal HydraShocks are my winter.

[ColColt]

Lead boolits sure killed a lot of fellers back n the old West days way before the advent of JHP's. However, today you can get into big time trouble, from what I've read, using home grown boolits of any sort over factory ammo. I don't know how much credence there is to that but I'll through it out at any rate. The only place I know of right off that you can get decent lead hollow points are from Buffalo Bore, such as the 158 gr "FBI" load.

[MGySgt]

Remington still makes their LSWC HP load - I bought some a year ago - haven't fired any.

[TheBigBang]

I seriously need to do some penetration tests with the Lee SWC TL boolits I have. My wifes little model 36 is scary accurate with those. I'm talkin' paper plate at 50 yards off-hand. I was considering making Mrs.goodsteel a SWC HP mold, might do it anyway for S&G.

The recent post by JonB_in_Glencoe focused my attention on the above quote from you goodsteel. I'm a ".45 ACP guy" (though I shoot quite a bit of .38 spc. for S&G as you would put it), so I only glanced at this thread occasionally. I don't think you'd have a penetration problem with just about ANY solid SWC at self-defense ranges, in any season of the year, with a decent powder charge. When you're talkin' paper plate at 50 yards off-hand, are you talkn' 'bout YOU or HER (cause if you're talkin' 'bout HER, I don't think finding a load with sufficient "stopping power" is gonna be very difficult - & *YOU* BETTER TOW THE LINE, BOY!).

While I AM a ".45 guy" & I DO believe in "stopping power" (I am talking here about over & above the minimum amount needed to "get the job done") & that it has it's advantages, I also believe in SHOT PLACEMENT & that it is SUPREME. I hear (or read) people saying "there is no substitute for "stopping Power"", but GOOD shot placement IS "stopping power"! A .22 LR round that makes a good brain hit, WILL stop *INSTANTLY*, a .45 ACP to the gut MAY stop virtually "instantly", but it might not. Of course, a .45 to the gut is quite a bit more likely to cause instant or near instant incapacitation than a 22 LR round to the gut & that is where the, you might say, "inherent" "stopping power" of a round like the .45 ACP has it's advantages. I do believe however, that this type of "stopping power" is a POOR substitute for shot placement.

Hollow pointing CAN increase "stopping power" of a bullet, if it is well done & doesn't compromise the bullet's ability to penetrate sufficiently *here is where penetration testing comes in handy*. MtGun44 has a design he has posted, I believe, to this thread, as well as a couple others, if I could reliably get that kind of expansion, with that kind of weight retention, without compromising sufficient penetration, I'd rather have it than not if I found myself defending my life with a .38 spc., no matter how well I can shoot. Again however, while hollow-pointing can be a worthwhile endeavor, it is still a POOR substitute for shot placement. Lest someone ask "why bother or be concerned with something that's a poor substitute", life tends to work in such a way that, sometimes, a substitute or an "assistance", however poor, is needed & can "make the difference" & "inherent stopping power" in a round is the best substitute for or "assistance" to shot placement you can get, it CAN "make the difference".

If you can't hit the paper plate at 50 yd.s now, Mrs. goodsteel, I would encourage you to practice often with that as a goal - remember your family motto! If you ever find yourself in the VERY unfortunate situation of having to defend yourself (and/or others) with a gun, SKILL with that gun, the WILL to use that gun if it's needed & the CONFIDENCE that KNOWING you have the WILL & the SKILL will give you are more important than the exact bullet that comes out of the barrel.

I hope all of the above info/advice, whatever it may be worth, remains "academic" for you & that you NEVER actually NEED it!

ETA: If the Lee SWC TL boolits (I'm assuming these are the TL358-158SWC) are that accurate & work that well, they're probably about as effective as any non-HP design you're gonna get.

One thing to keep in mind however, is your choice of lube, self-defense ammo must be TOTALLY RELIABLE. Make sure the lube you use will not melt & kill your powder & continue to work no matter how hot it gets wherever the ammo is carried or stored & that it also is not adversely affected by cold!

[StrawHat]

...OH, also practice the point and shoot,
you'll almost never have time to actually aim the gun using
the sights in a deadly confrontation... Jon

And yet Frank Hamer, and others, stated the only time they did not use the front sight was when it was twisted in the shirt of the guy they were arresting. I personally believe you should use the front sight.

[geargnasher]

"OH, also practice the point and shoot,
you'll almost never have time to actually aim the gun using
the sights in a deadly confrontation... Jon"

I'm quoting this again, because it's dead-on. Learning to hit a paper plate at 50 yards with a purse gun is a worthwhile goal unto itself, but isn't going to do much for the most likely encounter, which is going to be getting a hand on the pistol in a firm shooting grip and maneuvering it into an effective shot on a perp (likely at contact distance!) when the adrenaline is pumping so high you're about to faint and you're so scared you're about to pee yourself. Don't laugh at this. If you aren't as desperately frightened as that for fear of your own life or someone else's, are you really justified in killing someone?

Granted, a perp can close a distance of several parking spaces in only a couple of seconds, but if you shoot them at 50 yards with a carefully aimed shot, what were you thinking? I can see justifying that if they've got a front sight pointed at YOU, but really, what's most likely, and what's most important? I maintain that practicing deployment over and over in a variety of circumstances and using ammo effective at point-blank ranges will probably be the best preparation one can have. It's been said many times, and I can personally verify that you WILL not "rise to the occastion", but you WILL default to your current level of training when the :dung_hits_fan:

Gear

[zxcvbob]

You can use the front sight without raising it to your eye. If you can see it at all, your subconscious can make use of it to help you point more accurately.

[GabbyM]

I do not believe in hollow points for a fighting bullet in any of the light calibers. 38 Special 9x19mm and 45 acp. IMHO they all have about the right amount of penetration with a flat nose bullet.

That FBI load MtGunn showed (158gr SWC-HP) was a proven failure in the field. Likewise the 115gr JHP in the 9mm that was once all the rage. Reason looks simple to me. 4 to 6 inches of penetration isn't enough in every case. Get a yard stick and measure any mans body front to back and across the chest and arms.

I have an excellent mold form NOE for the copy of Lyman’s #358429 SWC that drops 177 grains. Loaded over a charge of Unique or Universal Clays it’s about as much punch as you can get from a 38 Special.

What I do 98% of my 38 Special and 357 magnum shooting with is a double ended wad cutter loaded over the old standard 3.1 grains of fast powder. It’s what I carry around the farm and in the field for varmint shooting from field mice to coyote. So if I ever did get into a fight using one of my 38’s it would most likely be loaded with a WC at 840 fps. Not ideal but I’d not worry about much as I’m sure two in the chest then one right through the top bridge of the nose would put them down. They do seam to kill slow in my limited experience with opossum, coons and coyote. A hollow point bullet I’m sure would work much better on the small critters. I have nice drill press and one of these days I’ll drill out HP’s in a few hundred of the 177 grain SWC cast from soft lead and load them up over 4.5 grains of Universal for a published 912 fps. +P charge is 4.8gr for 940 fps. For the bullet at 170 grains. I have a couple of fixed sight model 10’s that I have to regulate loads for so I get that set up then shoot that load in all my 38’s. Couple of beautiful model 15’s and my partners Colts.

I have the Saeco #354 flat round nose 180 grain gas check that is a good one. Lyman #4 list data in 357 magnum but not 38 Special. Also have the 200 grain Lyman 358430 RN that may get some use in the 38 revolvers. Any of them will make a hole.

[zxcvbob]

That FBI load MtGunn showed (158gr SWC-HP) was a proven failure in the field. Likewise the 115gr JHP in the 9mm that was once all the rage. Reason looks simple to me. 4 to 6 inches of penetration isn't enough in every case. Get a yard stick and measure any mans body front to back and across the chest and arms.

Really? I thought it was tested to give over 11" of penetration when shot from a 4" barrel. Maybe you're thinking of the .38 Special 110 grain +P+ "Treasury Load"

[TheBigBang]

"OH, also practice the point and shoot,
you'll almost never have time to actually aim the gun using
the sights in a deadly confrontation... Jon"

I'm quoting this again, because it's dead-on. Learning to hit a paper plate at 50 yards with a purse gun is a worthwhile goal unto itself, but isn't going to do much for the most likely encounter, which is going to be getting a hand on the pistol in a firm shooting grip and maneuvering it into an effective shot on a perp (likely at contact distance!) when the adrenaline is pumping so high you're about to faint and you're so scared you're about to pee yourself. Don't laugh at this. If you aren't as desperately frightened as that for fear of your own life or someone else's, are you really justified in killing someone?

Granted, a perp can close a distance of several parking spaces in only a couple of seconds, but if you shoot them at 50 yards with a carefully aimed shot, what were you thinking? I can see justifying that if they've got a front sight pointed at YOU, but really, what's most likely, and what's most important? I maintain that practicing deployment over and over in a variety of circumstances and using ammo effective at point-blank ranges will probably be the best preparation one can have. It's been said many times, and I can personally verify that you WILL not "rise to the occastion", but you WILL default to your current level of training when the :dung_hits_fan:

Gear

I would not discourage ANY type of practice, so long as it results in your being able to hit the "target" reliably, although some types are useful at only limited distances or in certain fairly "specific" situations. Deployment practice is certainly an important part of self defense preparation, you can't protect yourself with a gun you can't deploy! As for learning to hit a paper plate at 50 yd.s with a purse gun not doing much for her "most likely encounter", I disagree. In the first place I wouldn't say her most likely encounter (at least one she has much chance of surviving) is going to be at contact distance. Most people NEVER find the need for defending themselves with a gun (hopefully, Mrs. goodsteel will remain in this group), when they do however, scenarios vary wildly. Self-defense preparation involves BOTH developing skill with the physical tool(s) AND of equal importance, mental preparation.

While I'd certainly encourage anyone to practice rapid effective deployment of a handgun, even at contact distance, that is but one special skill & contact distance may well be "too late". At contact distance, the knife may already be in your heart or across your throat, a man with a plan, who's very cunning, can quickly render most women (or men for that matter) unconscious from contact distance. If you've allowed MULTIPLE assailants to reach contact distance, well... The purpose of developing the ability to hit a paper plate at 50 yd.s with a purse gun is not that you are going to need to shoot an attacker at even 1/10th that distance (though such a situation COULD arise). The purpose is acquiring great skill & familiarity with the gun, so when & *IF* you have to shoot an attacker(s) at 10 ft. & get them with the first shot or die, you have the confidence & skill to do so. True justification for deadly force does not come from being afraid, even desperately so, it comes from needing to prevent someone from killing or injuring you (or in some cases, the REASONABLE belief of that need). Part of self-defense is situational awareness & judgment. You need not allow an assailant to reach contact distance. Situational awareness will allow you to know who is around you & what they are doing. Is someone moving toward you, do they have anything in their hands, if so, what, etc.? Good judgment will help you to recognize a dangerous situation BEFORE a perp reaches contact distance. Skill with your firearm will help give you the ability to end the danger of such a situation. A person can be warned, in a nice friendly manner even, from a distance, that you feel endangered, a gun (and a warning of it's potential use) can be presented if they continue to advance, if they continue on trying to reach contact distance - the gun can be used.

When you talk about the adrenaline pumping so high you're about to faint & being so scared you're about to pee yourself, I'm NOT laughing at that. I think however, that there is fear & there is PANIC, and what you're talking about tilts more toward the panic side. Fear comes from realizing you're in eminent danger & panic comes from realizing you're in eminent danger & not having a clue how to deal with it. Panic however, has an enemy, a counter & this is CONFIDENCE. Confidence can be achieved by developing skill with the gun you've chosen to defend yourself. If you lack much skill & subsequently, you lack much confidence & you encounter a self-defense situation, even with a gun, you very well may panic. You may begin thinking "what do I do, I'm not sure I can hit this nut, what if I miss, what if he takes it away from me, I, I'm not that good with it, I oh, oh no, uuuuuugh, [hyperventilation], [faintness],[shock]". If you lack any real ability, much of that feeling may be justified, just having a gun doesn't mean you'll be able to defend yourself. If however, you've developed the kind of skill & familiarity with a gun that allows you to hit a paper plate consistently at 50 yd.s. The kind that allows you to quickly deploy it at close quarters. The kind that allows accurate rapid fire, at multiple targets, moving targets, while moving yourself. If you've prepared yourself mentally. Then you can have CONFIDENCE & that confidence will be justified, it will NOT be a false confidence, because it will come from KNOWING that you REALLY DO have the ABILITY! Then if you find yourself in a bad situation, you're more likely to be thinking something like "I hope this nut realizes I WILL use this gun if I have to, I hope he has sense enough to turn around & go away, but if he INSISTS on trying to hurt me, I CAN stop him!

Also: +1 for zxcvbob's post. MtGun44 was trying to duplicate the FBI load, but I don't think it was intended to be an ABSOLUTELY EXACT duplicate. Whether or not a H-P provides sufficient RELIABLE penetration is a function of many variables - velocity, hardness, weight retention, etc. - this is where penetration testing comes in handy.

[olafhardt]

Mrs. Goodsteel, here in Arkansas you might have to defend more agianst critters than people. Coyotes,coons,feral dogs and cats, snakes, rabid skunks etc, abound, especially in the country. The county here advises to shoot skunks through the chest so the head can be tested for rabies. I like about any 38 special for this as will a 22 rifle or a shotgun. I notice the forums deal with self defense from people adnaseum but ignor much more likely four or no legged threats. Have a box of CCI shot loads handy they work great on snakes at 10 feet or less. I have a complicated test protocol: I find a snake and shoot it.They have always worked.

[GabbyM]

Really? I thought it was tested to give over 11" of penetration when shot from a 4" barrel. Maybe you're thinking of the .38 Special 110 grain +P+ "Treasury Load"

11" in what? Ballistic gel. And no I’m not confusing the very well tried out FBI load with anything even worse. Just look at MtGun44’s test on post #21. 4 ½” penetration to base. Even if the load did deliver 11” in real world targets that’s a full five inches short of what you really do need. FBI’s answer to the failure of that load was to declare the 38 Special inadequate then abandon it. Since the bureaucrats obviously couldn’t admit to fielding a mistake.

In case anyone’s not figured it out yet I don’t take anything bureaucrats say about ballistics with anything but distain.

[TheBigBang]

11" in what? Ballistic gel. And no I’m not confusing the very well tried out FBI load with anything even worse. Just look at MtGun44’s test on post #21. 4 ½” penetration to base. Even if the load did deliver 11” in real world targets that’s a full five inches short of what you really do need. FBI’s answer to the failure of that load was to declare the 38 Special inadequate then abandon it. Since the bureaucrats obviously couldn’t admit to fielding a mistake.

In case anyone’s not figured it out yet I don’t take anything bureaucrats say about ballistics with anything but distain.

MtGun44 tested his load on wet phone books, these are quite a bit harder to penetrate than ballistic gel (or humans). As the photo he posted shows, the bullet remained intact, retaining pretty much all of it's weight. A hollow point like that has "potential". Penetration can be adjusted with testing & load development (more or less velocity, harder or softer bullets, different cavity styles/depths).

I have NOT tested MtGun44's load, so I'm not "endorsing" it at this point, I do think however, that at the very least, it's a good "starting point" or "inspiration" for someone INTERESTED in a H-P for the .38 Spc. (or .357 Mag.).

I'm not saying you MUST have a H-P, just that it's an option to consider.

[MtGun44]

I've test lots of ammo in wet phone books. In many cases, accurate FBI test data is available
now for the same ammo. In every case the ballistic gel penetration was about 2 to 2.2 times
as deep as what you see in the phone books. Penetration to base is easy to measure - push
a piece of welding rod in. Then ADD THE LENGTH OF THE BOOLIT to get the phone book
penetration and double it.

Boolit is ~3/4" long so call it 5" to the front, then double and get 10", 2.2 gives 11 inches.

Use what you like, I'm just showing you what results I got. Personally, that is the load that
is used in that gun.

From what I know, always subject to an update, the "FBI load" is a +P LSWC HP .38 Spl,
was considered to be one of the most effective .38 Spl loads devised.

Remington used to sell this up until no more than 2 - 3 yrs ago, haven't checked recently.

Bill

[TheBigBang]

I've test lots of ammo in wet phone books. In many cases, accurate FBI test data is available
now for the same ammo. In every case the ballistic gel penetration was about 2 to 2.2 times
as deep as what you see in the phone books. Penetration to base is easy to measure - push
a piece of welding rod in. Then ADD THE LENGTH OF THE BOOLIT to get the phone book
penetration and double it.

Boolit is ~3/4" long so call it 5" to the front, then double and get 10", 2.2 gives 11 inches.

Use what you like, I'm just showing you what results I got. Personally, that is the load that
is used in that gun.

From what I know, always subject to an update, the "FBI load" is a +P LSWC HP .38 Spl,
was considered to be one of the most effective .38 Spl loads devised.

Remington used to sell this up until no more than 2 - 3 yrs ago, haven't checked recently.

Bill

Remington does indeed still sell this load, as does Winchester. MANY people still consider this the best defense load available for a .38 snub & it is the only load they will carry.

[GabbyM]

I’ll stick with a hard flat nose that works and goes all the way through at least 1/3 of the time. I’d even take the old 158 grain round nose over those hollow points.

[olafhardt]

Mrs Goodsteel, you certianly have been able to stimulate the verbosity(long windedness) of some of our members. Congratulations!!! To clairify, empty that chiefs special into them and they won't be as healthy as before.

[Longwood]

Mrs Goodsteel, you certianly have been able to stimulate the verbosity(long windedness) of some of our members. Congratulations!!! To clairify, empty that chiefs special into them and they won't be as healthy as before.

There ya go.
Just keep pulling the trigger till it goes click then beat feet.
He may not be dead yet but running soon becomes very difficult for him.
A perp seldom expects a full on charge. Surprise him. After you are out of ammo, run with all the force you can muster into and over him.
By the time he gets up, he will have probably bled out a lot and is getting "Very sleepy".

[TheBigBang]

Mrs Goodsteel, you certianly have been able to stimulate the verbosity(long windedness) of some of our members. Congratulations!!! To clairify, empty that chiefs special into them and they won't be as healthy as before.

Well, excuse me if my posts are a bit verbose. I don't know what Mrs.goodsteel's (or anyone else following this thread to pick up info) current level of ability is. I have tried to provide useful information & "food for thought" on a subject of such depth & importance, that I simply feel 2 or 3 lines of text couldn't provide anything of much "REAL" value. Large books/training manuals of hundreds & thousands of pages have been written on the subject of self-defense. My posts might seem long-winded, but in reality they are only "tiny blurbs". People today have short attention spans & this is not conducive to learning.

If I want to "really" help someone starting out casting, I don't just say something like " Get ya some wheelweights & a bullet mold. Melt down the wheelweights & pour the stuff in the mold. Lube up the bullets & stuff them into some cases you've primed & filled with powder." Thats not long-winded, but it's also not very helpful, it's even dangerous, because, as with self-defense, there's alot more to it than that!

You cannot acquire useful skills with a firearm in 5 min., or by reading a few lines on a web-forum. Your self-styled clarification of "empty that chiefs special into them..." is, quite frankly, BAD advice. It is a technique known as "spray & pray" & while it MIGHT work-out OK sometimes, it is a "****-shoot". It didn't work well at all for the FBI in Miami in '86, the perp took DOZENS of hits & eventually died, but not before killing & maiming several agents. If you can miss at 3 ft. (presumably you didn't intend to murder that chrony) on a target range, you should be able to realize the importance of SKILL in a LIFE-THREATENING situation. I caution ANYONE reading this - DO NOT RELY ON SPRAY & PRAY, DEVELOP THE MENTAL & PHYSICAL SKILL TO MAKE YOUR INDIVIDUAL SHOTS "COUNT".

I'm not some kind of self-defense "guru" or something, I just want to provide "food for thought" on an important subject. I can't give you all that much even in relatively "long-winded" posts, there's alot to developing "real" self-defense skills. I HOPE I can make ANYONE reading these posts trying to pick up information, perhaps for the first time, realize just how much there is to it. And perhaps, get them "started in the right direction(s), IF I can, then the verbosity is not wasted. How much verbosity is someone's life worth?

[olafhardt]

Well Bang Bang, sounds like you have read a lot on the subject. Did you read about that cop in Skokie, Ill that had to shoot a guy 17 times with a 45 to stop him. The cop fired 30 something times and eventually made two head shots and 15other assorted hits. He describes using suppresive fire etc. He is obviously a brave, capable and lucky man. There is a kind of windy, indivdual who reads Jeff, Masad,Elmer, etc and tells people to.... yada yada yada how much is your:-| life worth? A model 36 full of cast boolits aint chopped liver. Five swc's to the gut may well be.

[soldierbilly1]

Umm, what is the best defensive bullet again? LOL Billy boy

[TheBigBang]

Well Bang Bang, sounds like you have read a lot on the subject. Did you read about that cop in Skokie, Ill that had to shoot a guy 17 times with a 45 to stop him. The cop fired 30 something times and eventually made two head shots and 15other assorted hits. He describes using suppresive fire etc. He is obviously a brave, capable and lucky man. There is a kind of windy, indivdual who reads Jeff, Masad,Elmer, etc and tells people to.... yada yada yada how much is your:-| life worth? A model 36 full of cast boolits aint chopped liver. Five swc's to the gut may well be.

No, actually, I've not read all that much on the subject, just use my brain. I'm not some armchair follower of Ayoob (or any of the others for that matter), wouldn't walk across the street to hear him speak. I actually don't recall hearing of that incident in Skokie, it says alot about you though that you use an incident that perfectly proves my point to try & refute it.

The Skokie cop of which you speak may very well be brave, & from what you say does appear to be "lucky", however, if it took him 30 tries & 17 actual hits with a .45 to stop ONE guy, I'm not so sure he was very capable. In the Skokie incident you've just described we can figure one of two things, the cop FINALLY made a GOOD hit, or blood loss got the guy after an EXTENDED period of time. Yes, the cop is VERY lucky, lucky this guy didn't kill him & it looks like LUCK was all it was. So, here you bring up an incident where INEFFECTUAL shooting with a .45 has required more rounds than a person carrying a .38 snub & two speedloaders would even have on them as what, an argument FOR "spray & pray"? :confused: If 15 POORLY placed .45 rounds can fail to stop an assailant, why would you think 5 poorly placed .38s reliably would? :roll:

soldierbilly1 - As far as style goes, any good, accurate SWC or other type with a good sized meplat, optionally hollow-pointed. In actual practice, the one that's been placed well enough to stop the fight.

[olafhardt]

Well Bang Bang, whenever I hear one of you guys talk about "confidense" I think about how useless and fragile my M¬!4 felt in Vietnam. It has been my experience that when it hits the fan confidence goes out the window which is good because confidence can get you killed. The problem with coming on this sight and spewing is that a lot of us have been there.

[TheBigBang]

Well olafhardt, my handle is actually "TheBigBang", by the way, people are different. Just as "some people never learn" some people never develop any confidence, no matter what situations they've been in or how much experience they've had, that's VERY unfortunate for them. Some people are just given to panic. In their PERSONAL experience, "confidense", as THEY understand it, does go out the window. Perhaps if they were the kind of person who COULD develop REAL confidence, they'd understand that it's actually a GOOD thing. They would understand that it's PANIC, not TRUE confidence, that can get you killed. Now, FALSE confidence can get you killed, but there is a difference between FALSE confidence & TRUE confidence, but then, you'd have to have a true understanding of confidence to understand that. I wasn't in Vietnam, but I've talked to alot of those who were over the years, MANY have told me the guys who panicked usually didn't last too long, except for a few "lucky" ones. Many have told me learning NOT to PANIC & to CONTROL their fear & essentially gaining "confidence", is how they made it out alive. If I am "spewing", then SO ARE YOU & everyone else posting on this site.

[9.3X62AL]

Paco Kelly wrote a really good article about the 358430, 195 grain "Super Police" roundnose bullet. He likes it, as did some of the cops he used to work with. Paco has done tests that support the rumor that those bullets tumble in soft tissue, producing greater tissue destruction than if they traveled nose-first.

I have shot quite a few of those bullets in my 2" Taurus M85, loaded over a charge of AL8 (between Blue Dot and 2400) that gives 815 fps from my snubby. They destabilize by 50 yards, but are accurate at defensive ranges.

I used one in that same snubby to kill a hog with a downward-angling shot through the skull. Not only did it not bounce off the pig's skull; it exited and went several inches into the ground. Needless to say, it killed the pig instantly.

I've shot A BUNCH of #358430s over the years in 38 Special and 357 Magnum. They do seem to cartwheel when run at 38 Special velocities (650-700 FPS) into jackrabbits, as do the NEI #169A 200 grainers at similar speeds from 38/200 loads. #358430 doesn't appear to tumble as reliably when run at 1100-1200 FPS in the magnums, though.

I was able to get 600-625 FPS from a 2" Model 10 I once had with the #358430. This was not a +P load, either--standard pressure loading with Unique, IIRC. I sure as aitch-ee-double-ell wouldn't stand downrange and try catching those with a fielder's glove.

[Hamish]

edited

[MBTcustom]

I have to admit that I think Olfhardt makes good sence and is being realistic. I believe that the perp has the edge because he knows that something bad is about to happen. He is mentally prepared for stress, and he truly believes himself to be superior to you for these reasons. That gives him the mental edge over the situation. Meanwhile the victim is just trying to load her dadgum groceries and get back to the house in time to fix dinner etc. when all heck breaks loos. The victim has just seconds to realize that dinner is no longer of utmost importance, decide instead that she is going to die if she does nothing, and finally decide to kill the person assaulting her. During all of this, she has to get a grip on a very particular piece of hardware, bring it up, and effectively use it to defend her life. Thus ends a ten second confrontation that will change her life forever.
I could see having a measure of confidence if the situation was anticipated in any way, but that whole way of thinking is kind of a holywood situation based. You dont see it coming, you dont have time to think, you dont have time to stifle your fear and adrenalin, you dont have time to find a tiny little sight and use it, you just react and hope like heck that your muscle memory saves your bacon. You are not the wolf, you are the lamb. It is a bad idea to train like an operator when you will never be one in that kind of situation. When I practice for defense, I shoot at a target that is 10 feet away, and try to hold a paper plate sized group, shooting one-handed from the hip, but that's just me.

[TheBigBang]

I think some people are missing my point, & NOT being as realistic as they THINK they are.

goodsteel,

I have to respectfully disagree with you on the point of having just seconds to realize the situation. That perp you speak of isn't just going to magically appear behind Mrs. goodsteel, he's going to have to walk or run up to her, IF she can maintain an awareness of her surroundings, & I assure you she CAN, if she's willing. She can deal with the situation effectively BEFORE the perp gets that close. I KNOW this to be true because I'VE been in such a situation & was able to resolve it without bloodshed BECAUSE I recognized it early enough. I didn't panic & I didn't have to really "stifle" anything, I had prepared myself for such a situation & knew what I was capable of. I was concerned, of course, because you can never be SURE of the outcome of such a situation. There is also the possibilty of a situation where she is home & you are not & someone breaks-in, she may well hear them early enough that she has well more than "10 seconds" to address the situation. These are NOT "hollywood" situations, they happen everyday. Even with only a few seconds warning, I still say confidence/skill vs. panic comes into play to some degree. Imagine a teenage girl who's had her license a week she'a still a very nervous, timid driver, with little to no confidence, she has a blowout, she has a split second to correct, but she has little skill or confidence as a driver, blind panic ensues, she ends up in a head-on collision. Imagine someone who's been driving for 10 yr.s, they've driven through rain & snow many times, they've had to swerve to avoid accidents with wayward dogs, stupid pedestrians & morons on cell-phones, they have that same split-second to correct & they do, because they have the skill & confidence to avoid panic & do what they need to do, in a life-threatening situation, even in only a split second. Finally goodsteel, I feel I have to say this, I hope your wife is never in this situation & if she is, that she survives it. I think, however, that if she lets someone get as close to her as you & others seem to be anticipating, she has MUCH less chance of surviving. In THAT situation you're right, she probably won't see it coming, she probably WON'T have time to to think. Yes HE will know what he's up to, he may well be ALOT stronger than her & if he's prepared himself well, if he's experienced or just "cold-blooded" enough & she lets him into contact distance, he will probably kill her, if that's his intent, EVEN IF SHE HAS A GUN. I assure you I'm not just writing this to "see" myself talk. I know you don't know me, I'm just some guy in "cyberspace", & you can take me for an idiotic windbag if you like. I hope, however, you will REALLY THINK about what I'm saying.

[alamogunr]

Although this thread has veered off into mental preparedness, I have a question for those who like WC's for self defense loads. I've been shooting a lot of H&G #37 WC in my S&W Model 65.

Is there any advantage to reversing this boolet? Does the button nose make it any less effective than the flat base forward?

[Longwood]

Although this thread has veered off into mental preparedness, I have a question for those who like WC's for self defense loads. I've been shooting a lot of H&G #37 WC in my S&W Model 65.

Is there any advantage to reversing this boolet? Does the button nose make it any less effective than the flat base forward?

The reasoning behind the backward bullet was to get it to expand and impart all of it's energy on the target.
It has been very well proven that a small bullet punching a tiny hole through a body then walls behind them is not the best way to stop someone.
That is why soft lead bullets often work much better for hunting than hard bullets that punch little holes.

[StrawHat]

The reasoning behind the backward bullet was to get it to expand and impart all of it's energy on the target.
It has been very well proven that a small bullet punching a tiny hole through a body then walls behind them is not the best way to stop someone.
That is why soft lead bullets often work much better for hunting than hard bullets that punch little holes.


Longwood, the bullet in question, the H&G #37, is a solid based bullet with a button nose. I believe you are thinking of the HBWC. There is no reason the H&G #37 would expand differently is loaded base first.

alamogunr, I usually shoot DEWCs so I have no experience with the boolit you are asking about but I doubt the little button nose will add or detract from the impact of the boolit.

[BD]

IMHO the lee 158 grain RNFP, or similar, is the preferred self defense loading in a .38 snubby. My reasons are:

1. All the RNFPs in any caliber I've tried have given me better terminal performance on animals than any of the swc designs, (.38, .44 and .45). I believe it's the size of the meplat that makes the difference. I want a projectile that will penetrate in a more or less straight line to break the parts I'm shooting to break. SWCs are designed to make nice round, easy to score, holes in paper targets. RNFPs are designed to make deeper holes in living tissue that bleed a lot, and break things along the way.

2. The RNFP design carries more of it's weight out front than other designs of similar weight. This leaves greater case capacity to attain +P velocities in the snubby, a velocity challenged round from the start. I'm getting 850 fps out of my 442 without excessive pressure. I also get better accuracy in most guns with this design.

3. RNFPs load much easier than WCs or SWCs from a speed strip, (or a speedloader). To me, this is a real factor in a platform that only carries five rounds.

A side note, While at the range last fall my wife and I had the chance to try a Ruger LCR. My wife and daughter have declared it much easier to shoot than my S&W J-frames, and this was borne out on their targets. It's a tiny bit larger, and lighter, and plastic, and it's no S&W trigger, but they really do like it better.

BD

[handyman25]

When I carried I used a s&w 60 with hbwc loaded backwards with very hot loads. My thinking was I want a big hole and all the engery spent in the perps body. Today I use the Hornaday self denfence ammo, but practice with my cast bullets with a load that "feels" the same as the Hornaday ammo. By feel I mean recoil and bullet impact. The Hornaday self denfence ammo has tested very well in balistic gelatin. I do not know how well it will work in a perps body and hope I never find out.

[hornetguy]

IMHO the lee 158 grain RNFP, or similar, is the preferred self defense loading in a .38 snubby.

+10.

What has been declared the best shape for a hunting bullet, by those "in the know"? The round-flat, wider is better meplat bullet.

I'm thinking that Lee got it exactly right with this bullet, and will be shooting it from my 38's as soon after my mold arrives as time (and garage temp) allows.

edit: sorry to revive an older post, but, there it is..

[TCLouis]

Plain ol wadcutters are my choice for 38 spl.

44 spl is the Lee 200 grain RNFP cast at 14.5 bhn.

Hope I NEVER get a chance to test them

[1Shirt]

Yep, me also! a .357-8 dia flat nose makes a good close range stopper, but probably won't shoot thru a wall.
1Shirt!

[MBTcustom]

probably won't shoot thru a wall.
I hear this statement all the time. I thought a strong pellet rifle would shoot clean through a sheet-rock wall? I mean really? You're tellin me that two 1/2" layers of plaster of paris held together with paper mache' is going to stop 150 grains of anything going 700 FPS? I don't understand this argument, (no offense 1shirt, but you brought up a touchy subject)
Personally, I think I could punch through two layers of sheet-rock from 100 yards away with a snub nosed revolver shooting 158 grain wad-cutters.
Just saying.

[zxcvbob]

I hear this statement all the time. I thought a strong pellet rifle would shoot clean through a sheet-rock wall? I mean really? You're tellin me that two 1/2" layers of plaster of paris held together with paper mache' is going to stop 150 grains of anything going 700 FPS? I don't understand this argument, (no offense 1shirt, but you brought up a touchy subject)
Personally, I think I could punch through two layers of sheet-rock from 100 yards away with a snub nosed revolver shooting 158 [148?] grain wad-cutters.
Just saying.

Yep. OTOH, a .223 rifle with light bullets at 3000+ might not make it through the second layer of sheetrock.

[MBTcustom]

Even a .223 with its deflection problems, would probably punch through. It may be a sideways hole in the second piece, but I don't see that it has anywhere to go inside 3.5" between the boards.
This is a most interesting case of disappearing energy. Energy? where are you Energy?
These are scientific facts that I have personally proven over the years: (don't ask)
I can punch through a piece of sheet-rock with my fist.
An arrow, (when missing a pizza box full of leather) will shoot right through a high-backed chair and through one layer of sheet rock, and those low income apartment buildings don't use the thick stuff! I sure am glad it didn't make like Arrow Smith and "break on through to the other side" . It would have been bad if the neighbors had a flat screen TV hung on that wall, shot in the back with an arrow!
A subsonic .22 will shoot through 2.5 layers of sheet-rock separated by 10 feet. (And if you patch the hole soon enough, SWMBO will never be the wiser)

[Plinkster]

I'm a little OCD so I gotta say: it was The Doors that "break on through to the other side", otherwise I agree with everything you've said Goodsteel!

[MBTcustom]

Oops! I listen to country music. Arrow did the other line I like to use: "Dream on!...Dream on!" Used in the right place that is hilarious! Sorry for misquoting The Doors.

[Longwood]

[QUOTE=goodsteel;1813214I thought a strong pellet rifle would shoot clean through a sheet-rock wall? I mean really? You're tellin me that two 1/2" layers of plaster of paris held together with paper mache' is going to stop 150 grains of anything going 700 FPS? I don't understand this argument, (no offense 1shirt, but you brought up a touchy subject)
Personally, I think I could punch through two layers of sheet-rock from 100 yards away with a snub nosed revolver shooting 158 grain wad-cutters.
Just saying.[/QUOTE]

My 22 cal Beeman pellet rifle will shoot through both side of a steel five gallon bucket. Or a Douglas fir two X four.

The reversed wad cutter has been reported as #1 choice in so many articles back before the ambulance chasers began seeing them as Dum Dum's.
People like them because of how they expand and expend 'ALL' of their energy inside of the perp.

[MikeS]

Tim: One more musical correction. The band you're thinking of is Aerosmith, not Arrow Smith. But I can understand the mistake, after all, with your musical taste you're wondering if your pickup truck will start when you get out of jail, and if momma got run over by a train, etc. (Country Music) :)

And back on topic (sort of), my idea of the best 38 defensive load is a 45ACP :)

[MBTcustom]

As a matter of fact, My momma's truck broke down on the RR tracks once. Luckily, a friend noticed her little predicament, and helped her push it off the tracks.
Also, as a matter of fact, Mrs. goodsteels first pistol was a 3.5" 1911. She was darn good with it too, but it was so heavy that she never carried it, so I got her the S&W 36 and did a trigger job on it so she can use it one handed. Sometimes compromises must be made. That being said, I love that little gun! It's amazingly accurate for such a small pistol.

[jdgabbard]

One of the tried and true was the good 'ole Elmer Keith 358429HP (358359?).... I believe it came out of the mold at the 160g range. But one could also just have a 358311 HP'd and you'd have one heck of an accuracte/efficient boolit. But kind of like the whole 38 v 9mm argument, it kind of depends on what you feel most comfortable with.

[MtGun44]

I'm surprised at how long this thread has been going.

I refer newcomers back to post #21.

Bill

[jdgabbard]

Bill, one on #21 is the same as what I was talking about...

[Balkandom]

Gonna toss in 2 cents, maybe at my peril.

If you have something that shoots big bullets fast and hard (10mm, .41, 44), it really does not make much difference.

If you're shooting something smaller at lower velocities, specifically a .38, alternately loaded HBWC's are the way to go (One reversed, one not, in the cylinder). A reverse loaded hbwc is a rather nasty HP that will get someone's attention and keep it, and the straight loaded HBWC is a bullet that isn't going to let a rounded surface (Cranium) deflect it like a RM or SWC will. A straight wadcutter makes the same hole in a skull as it does in a piece of paper, pretty much regardless of the angle. That's what people tell me, anyway.

Quarter-inch lockwashers in a 12 gauge take all that guesswork away though.

Mike

[MBTcustom]

Now that seems like a reasonable idea, but now comes the near impossible task of trying to decide which of the two configurations you should load three of. (five shot remember)
Maybe in the winter you swap out one of the backward ones for one of the traditional ones.....

[StrawHat]

(double tap).

[StrawHat]

...but now comes the near impossible task of trying to decide which of the two configurations you should load three of...

Just use a hard cast DEWC and load it as fast as a 158 SWC.

[brghp]

The 158gr lead hp FBI load is one of the most proven defense loads in 38 special. This is both 4 inch and 2 inch revolvers. 4 inch velocities run around 915 fps and 2 inch velocities run around 800 fps. These velocities are easily attained with powders like Unique, Accurate #5, 231, HS6.

[9.3X62AL]

Threads survive because their contributors believe passionately in what they post therein.

My view concerning both the 38 Special and the 357 Magnum is that the single best and most useful bullet weight in either caliber is the 155-160 grainer. I don't carry a 38 Special socially because I'm limited to the 125 grain +P loading, which doesn't do the caliber's best work--though it beats throwing rocks convincingly. :) For many years, I was similarly required to use the W-W 158 grain JHP in my 357s, which I think very highly of. Just recently I learned that my agency has switched to the 125 grain Federal JHP in 357 Magnum. I wasn't real thrilled about that, but given the 357's power level just about any bullet weight will do the job if placed half-decently. And ball-powder handloads duplicating the Fed 125s REALLY light up adjacent hillsides at dusk. They would likely singe an assailant's eyebrows at 7 yards, too--so be careful shooting paper/cardboard targets up close. It could start a brush fire. :)

[popper]

Quarter-inch lockwashers in a 12 gauge take all that guesswork away though. I like that. I agree with Gear, and single handed shooting. Based on a documentary of an armed lady with a revolver. She pointed in the general direction, emptied it and was reloading as she chased they guy down the street.

[tactikel]

The most accurate .38cal boolit I have ever found was the 168 gr Keith swc. if you had to carry cast boolits that would be my choice, superb accuracy and penetration. If you would consider J bullets Gold Dots would be my recommendation.