Really Bad First Time Performance

[shoret]

Hello all, This is my first post.. It took me quite a while to get here and get started but I have read many of your posts to get myself started...
Ive been reloading for for some time now and recently bought a Mosin Nagant and thought cast boolits would be the absolute trick for shooting it. So this is my first shot at it . It slugs out at .314.. I bought a cast mold( 31-165b) from Accurate molds that gives me a 165-168 grn boolit @ .316... the boolits look ok ( a little frosty at times) I'm using W/W's, they are Gas Ck'd and crimped on when i run them thru the sizer, and ive done some crimping with a lee crimper.. I shot these with a 22 grns of 2400 powder and some @ 15 grns of Blue dot , win primers and new Privi 7.62x54r Brass ... I have had no luck getting them down range ( 100 yds) with any accuracy to speak of. They do reach the target but they fly every where .. There is no evidence of leading in the barrel so i feel ive got good lube and a good seal.. So my question is whats going on with the bad performance ?? Is 165 too light ?? Even so, shouldn't they stay on a straight flight path... The GC's appear to be on correctly and seated ?? Any Thoughts ?? I will be on line for a bit but probably have to ck back on for feed back later .. Thanks for the help

[canyon-ghost]

I do load development in 1/10th grain increments, have you tried fine tuning your powder charge? You'll see one target at say,... 21.9 grains that is 3 feet wide, and then, at 22.0 you see another target that shrinks a group to 4", and yet the next one will show a group to 1&1/2" size.

That's all pretense but, you get my thought there. I do the powder workup for five different charges in a row, five of each and shoot all 25 at five different targets on paper.

[Stick_man]

FIrst off, welcome to the forum. You have come to the right place to figure out a solution to any casting or "shooting of lead" issues you may run into. I don't shoot a MN so I cannot offer any direct assistance to you, but I can suggest you try varying your loads a little bit. What velocity are you trying to get?

Sometimes just a 1-gr variation in powder charge will tighten up your "patterns" enough to call them "groups". Some guns like to run hot, some mild. That is part of dialing in a load. I am not sure where your listed loads fall in terms of published reloading data, but, unless you are running at the top end of the list, you might try loading up 5 rounds each at increments of .5 grain up and down from where you are at now. Don't exceed the max listed load data unless you are absolutely sure of what you are doing. Once you find your groups start to shrink, you can then dial in a little finer detail and work from that best load going up and/or down in increments of .1 grain until you find your load that produces best accuracy.

I somewhat suspect that 2400 or Unique will probably give you best results with accuracy.

**Edit* Canyon-ghost and I were writing at the same time. Sorry for the duplication of answers, but it does show we agree on what is probably your best starting point... load workup.

[runfiverun]

back that 2400 load down to 17-18 grs and you will see a marked improvement.
i use 18 in all my 30 cals from the argie through the 0-6,and in almost all my other mili cal rifles too.

[41 mag fan]

Welcome to the forum...I seen the heading..brought me back to when i met my now wife....!!!

You got alot of variable there that could be addressed.
It could go from trying several powders besides the 2 you're using, to the boolit might not be the best answer for the gun in question, to all the way down to the primers.
If you're groups are spead out try what canyon-ghost recommended, then try different powders, and maybe even different boolits

[shoret]

I will work up on the powder as suggested .. Im not really shooting for a particular velocity just trying to make it to the 100 yd target .. I was thinking this boolit may be too light .. alot of folks seem to shoot a much heavier boolit...

[shoret]

back that 2400 load down to 17-18 grs and you will see a marked improvement.
i use 18 in all my 30 cals from the argie through the 0-6,and in almost all my other mili cal rifles too.
are you using any filler ??

[Ben]

shoret

I'm with runfiverun on this one, why start out at blistering speeds ( 22.0 grs. of 2400 ) trying to find an accurate load ( that's usually NOT where you'd fine an accurate load ) ? ?

The 06' case capacity and the 54 rimmed Russian round are similar in powder capacity.
Start with about 16.0 grs. of 2400 powder and walk up in 3/10 of a grain intervals until you finds a nice accurate load.

[shoret]

Will do .. I guess my background with F-Class told me I had the need for speed

[shoret]

Thanks again for the input .. ill go back and re- work the load work up and let you all how i do .. Its all so new even though I've been shooting a while.. placing the craftsmanship in my own hands from start to finish is empowering to say the least .. thanks again

[wallenba]

Did you get a Mosin with a counter-bored muzzle by any chance? I have a .314 M38 that will only get 4" groups at 50 yards or under with a .316 C312-185-1R (lapped oversize mold). Sometimes it just is what it is. Keep trying until you've exhausted all ideas.

[frank505]

A Lyman "M" die is needed to open the sized case necks, other wise accuracy suffers.............

[Ben]

16.0 grs. of 2400 in the 30-06 has shot so many tight groups with thousands of shooter that people have totally lost count of the people who are well pleased with the load.

I realize that the 30-06 cartridge and your 7.62 X 54 R Russian are quite different in appearance . Ballistically however, they are similar rounds. Here is a 50 yard group I fired about a week ago :

( By the way, this is fairly common with
this load with many shooters and many rifles )

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/019-6.jpg

[telebasher]

When I started casting for centerfire rifles I had to completely reverse my "MO" for finding an accurate load using cast vs. jacketed bullets. For me that meant establishing a realistic accuracy standard and hunt for it by starting at a very low velocity and acceptable accuracy and increasing velocity until accuracy was no longer acceptable. After you work with a given bullet style and alloy over time you get a feel for what works and what won't. The learning curve is part of the fun and I don't think anyone will run out of ideas to prove or disprove, thats what keeps you hooked, looking for that Holy Grail Load in YOUR gun!

[geargnasher]

+3 on reduce the powder charge and word up. 2400 is a good choice, Unique will get you there too, I lost count of how many pounds of that my high school buddy and I burned in our old rusty Mosins, from 115-grain 32-20 boolits at subsonic squirrel/bunny velocities to the big Loverin boolits loaded for pigs, we did it all with Unique, and did suprisingly well for a couple of kids just cramming loads together. The key is to find the "sweet spot" with the powder and that boolit. With a 165-grain, Unique might be better.

Also, pound a dead-soft slug just into the muzzle about an inch and drive it back out and compare to the slug you drove all the way through, make sure there isn't any wear there from the steel cleaning rod. If the muzzle end is tapered the wrong way, it can ruin accuracy.

Gear

[shoret]

Did you get a Mosin with a counter-bored muzzle by any chance? I have a .314 M38 that will only get 4" groups at 50 yards or under with a .316 C312-185-1R (lapped oversize mold). Sometimes it just is what it is. Keep trying until you've exhausted all ideas.

Yea, My MN is counter bored ... The rifling looks to be in good shape from the breach to the muzzle . It will shoot a tight Group say 2"@ 100 yds with iron sites using a Hornady 150 grn .312 British 303.. My thinking is with the oversize of .314 I could make that even better with a properly assemble cast cartridge round .. at least that's my plan I probably just overdosed with the powder...

[runfiverun]

that's where i would start.

[MT Chambers]

Before going to far you must make sure that every bit of jacketed fouling is gone from your bore, usually this is not just a few passes with a solvent and patch, it can be a big job as all the rifle has ever shot is copper or gilding metal.......get scrubbing!!

[Ben]

make sure that every bit of jacketed fouling is gone from your bore

Yep, the copper has got to go ! !

[fishnbob]

Weigh out your cast boolits and group them by weights. You may find some variation in the weights and that kills my accuracy more than anything else. I assume that since you see no sign of leading, the boolit fit is ok. But then you know what the word assume means when broken down. My downfall is the variation in my boolit weight. It is possible to affect that by inconsistient casting temperature.

[725]

AS above +1. I use janitorial strength ammonia to remove copper. May require several series of wire brush, patch w/ ammonia, wire brush, ...........etc. Many good bore cleaners to choose from. JB paste, Flitz, Shooter's Choice, and on and on. Do a good cleaning and switch from cleaning copper to cleaning lead and back. Sometimes there seems to be layers of the junk. Once totally free of copper, I'd test various load levels and apply a mild crimp. Just enough crimp to do the job. 16 gr of 2400 is a real good place to start. Good luck and welcome aboard.

[canyon-ghost]

At the risk of boring you to sleep, the difference between lead bullets and jacketed are wide.

Lead bullets seal the bore and push straight back, jacketed has muzzle climb.

Lead bullets are accurate with less powder, for the same reason, they seal the bore.

To duplicate jacketed velocity with lead will take linotype or harder bullets.

I clean most of my lead shooters, which is all of the guns I own with mineral spirits paint thinner from the lumber yard. With no copper fouling, it cleans up really easy. That's the benefit of doing all that cleaning.

The best thing about shooting lead is that you can do it almost indefinitely with no barrel wear. Some of my old Contenders have used barrels that shot jacketed until the owner decided it was getting worn. I clean them up really good and convert them to cast, and get more than another 10 years out of them.

[shoret]

Weigh out your cast boolits and group them by weights. You may find some variation in the weights and that kills my accuracy more than anything else. I assume that since you see no sign of leading, the boolit fit is ok. But then you know what the word assume means when broken down. My downfall is the variation in my boolit weight. It is possible to affect that by inconsistient casting temperature.

I sat down yesterday and did just that and reloaded at 16 grns of 2400 as a starting point going up by.2 grns in batches of 5 each .. You are correct there is a variation in weights starting at 166 -173 grns( after GC's installed ) so at least I have a good controlled batches to start on .. Im gonna shoot tomorrow morning but for now i have some scrubbing to do ..

[big dale]

Once you have worked out a powder charge you are happy with then you might want to try a few different seating depths. Sometimes your rifle could like them either a little longer or a little shorter. Sometimes you can spend years trying different stuff with your rifle.

Have fun with this stuff.

Big Dale

[Alan in Vermont]

Lead bullets seal the bore and push straight back, jacketed has muzzle climb.

Can you expand on that? You lost me.

[Alan in Vermont]

Hey c-g, I'm still waiting for you to explain how different metals somehow bend the laws of physics.

Maybe we can chalk this up to being a "myth"?

[shoret]

Just a quick update and maybe finish this thread off... My efforts with 16 grns of 2400 were great. I feel like I'm on the right track.. i shot 5 rnds starting at 16grns going up by .2 and maxed out at 17 Grns .. all at 100yds with results of 1-2" MOA... Much much better .. Thanks to all ...