44 Mag accuracy/leading issues...

[Jech]

Howdy gents,

I picked up a brand new 7.5" Ruger Redhawk chambered in 44 magnum a few months ago and have run into some accuracy and leading issues in the latter 4-5" of the barrel. Hoping to tap into the expertise on the site and diagnose what my problem is.

Here are the details of the load...

- New Starline 44 magnum brass
- Lyman 429241 boolits
- .4295-.430"" sized via Lee push-through sizing die (mould casts ever so slightly undersized)
- alloy is WQ'd 50/50 clip-on WW and range lead that tests around 18-20BHN
- tumble-lubed *very* generously with 45/45/10
- COAL of 1.695" (strong roll crimp in the crimp groove)
- CCI #350 large pistol magnum primers
- 25.0gr of Hodgdon H-110
- Chronographs an average of 1,425fps from 10 shots

Details of the gun...

- New 7.5" Ruger Redhawk Hunter model
- The barrel slugs out at .4295"
- A .430" sized boolit will just barely get stuck when dropped through each chamber throat but can be pushed through with little effort...a .429" jacketed bullet will fall through with little resistance.
- Cylinder gap is .004" as measured by the local gunsmith

Accuracy is in the 4-6" range at 50 feet off of a benchrest with the cast loads I've tried so far. With factory jacketed ammo, I can put them in one ragged hole. Like I said above, with this H110 load, the first 2-3" of the barrel looks pretty clean but the latter 4-5" is just smeared so I suspect my load is to blame for the poor accuracy. I think I might be pushing the boolit too hard so I tried a 10gr charge of Unique with a Winchester non-magnum large pistol primer but that leaded the entire barrel too...forcing cone all the way to the end. I haven't chrono'd that load yet but according to Lyman's 4th Ed Cast Bullet handbook, I'm guessing it's in the 950-1,000fps range...slightly better but still poor accuracy.

Since the lower-velocity Unique load still leaded quite a bit like the H110 load did, my gut says it could be one of several things: I'm using 45/45/10 in a magnum cartridge with a non-TL style bullet, the bullet is undersized for the bore diameter and not sealing properly, or that I'm simply pushing a plain based boolit too hard and need a gas check (groan!)

What do you guys think it might be? Since the gun itself has good measurements in all the critical areas (bore dia, chamber throat dia, etc) I really don't think I'm dealing qith a gun quality issue.

Thanks! ~ Jech

[ShooterAZ]

Try some 2400 powder would be my suggestion, and perhaps a harder alloy would cast a bit larger. Less crimp also.

[500MAG]

I have the same gun and use H110 to load. The mold I use is Lee 429-240-swc. I tumble lube with LLA and size with the Lee sizer. I have very little leading. Undersized boolits can cause leading in the throat of the barrel.

[paul h]

Your gun might suffer from barrel thread choke. Push a soft lead ball from the muzzle and feel for a constriction as the bullet exits the breach. Blackhawks and super blackhawks are notorious for this, and it will cause all kinds of cast bullet grief.

Next, I like to clean a gun's barrel to squeky clean not a hint of jacket fouling when switching from jacketed bullets to cast. If there is jacket fouling in the barrel, you've layed down a foundation for the lead to follow.

My thoughts on your leading is two fold. With the H-110 loads, you were getting lube failure. go to a conventional lube. With the unique load, you have an undersize bullet that is too hard and not obturating to seal the bore. Don't water quench your bullets for milder loads.

I suggest thoroughly cleaning your barrel to remove both lead and jacketed fouling. Then cast up some more more bullets and don't water quench them. Use the liquid lube and try the 10 gr of unique again. I think your results will improve.

For the heavy loads, you need a conventional lube and honestly I don't think you need to water quench the bullets, especially if they are undersize.

If none of that helps, trip the lyman mold on ebay, and get a custom mold of a 250-270 gr LFN shape that drops 0.331" from ww's. I honestly think the LFN's are a superior design for top accuracy over a broader range of velocities.

[mdi]

The. 44 Magnum is my favorite caliber to reload, cast, and shoot. Bullet fit is key to clean, non-leading, accurate shooting, so I slugged all my revolvers' cylinder throats and size the bullets to the same diameter (My Ruger has .4305" to .431" throats, so I size my bullets to .431" which fits perfectly with the .429" groove diameter). I cast for mebbe 12 years before I "learned" about BHN. I had worked out all leading issues mainly with proper bullet fit before I checked the BHN of any of my alloys (95% of my casting was done with wheel weight alloy). IMO, the BHN formula is secondary to bullet fit for preventing leading.

I believe leading in the latter part of the barrel can be from lube failure. The lube "runs out" or fails before the bullet exits the barrel. Try another lube.

I cast a lot of Lyman 429421, some Lee 240 SWC T/L (for my Ruger SBH, S&W 629, T/C Contender, Dan Wesson 44H) and lately a lot of Ranch Dog 240 and 265 RFN T/L for my Puma .44.

[Jech]

Your gun might suffer from barrel thread choke. Push a soft lead ball from the muzzle and feel for a constriction as the bullet exits the breach. Blackhawks and super blackhawks are notorious for this, and it will cause all kinds of cast bullet grief.

Next, I like to clean a gun's barrel to squeky clean not a hint of jacket fouling when switching from jacketed bullets to cast. If there is jacket fouling in the barrel, you've layed down a foundation for the lead to follow.

The bore didn't have any pinch points when I slugged it...I lucked out with this one!

As for fouling, I've never put any factory/jacketed ammo through this gun. It was a cast-only revolver right out of the box :)

[454PB]

I suggest a slightly larger boolit diameter (.431") and pan lubing if you don't have access to a lubrisizer. I think you're running out of lube before you run out of barrel.

[turmech]

I load the same bullet sized the same as you (.430) with little to no leading in a SBH hunter. my measurements of the gun are the same as yours. I use 2400 and unique. your very unique load (10 gr) gives me the best accuracy. I size with the lee sizer as you but pan lube with conventional lube and straight WW water dropped. I would try conventional lube.

[44man]

Howdy gents,

I picked up a brand new 7.5" Ruger Redhawk chambered in 44 magnum a few months ago and have run into some accuracy and leading issues in the latter 4-5" of the barrel. Hoping to tap into the expertise on the site and diagnose what my problem is.

Here are the details of the load...

- New Starline 44 magnum brass
- Lyman 429241 boolits
- .4295-.430"" sized via Lee push-through sizing die (mould casts ever so slightly undersized)
- alloy is WQ'd 50/50 clip-on WW and range lead that tests around 18-20BHN
- tumble-lubed *very* generously with 45/45/10
- COAL of 1.695" (strong roll crimp in the crimp groove)
- CCI #350 large pistol magnum primers
- 25.0gr of Hodgdon H-110
- Chronographs an average of 1,425fps from 10 shots

Details of the gun...

- New 7.5" Ruger Redhawk Hunter model
- The barrel slugs out at .4295"
- A .430" sized boolit will just barely get stuck when dropped through each chamber throat but can be pushed through with little effort...a .429" jacketed bullet will fall through with little resistance.
- Cylinder gap is .004" as measured by the local gunsmith

Accuracy is in the 4-6" range at 50 feet off of a benchrest with the cast loads I've tried so far. With factory jacketed ammo, I can put them in one ragged hole. Like I said above, with this H110 load, the first 2-3" of the barrel looks pretty clean but the latter 4-5" is just smeared so I suspect my load is to blame for the poor accuracy. I think I might be pushing the boolit too hard so I tried a 10gr charge of Unique with a Winchester non-magnum large pistol primer but that leaded the entire barrel too...forcing cone all the way to the end. I haven't chrono'd that load yet but according to Lyman's 4th Ed Cast Bullet handbook, I'm guessing it's in the 950-1,000fps range...slightly better but still poor accuracy.

Since the lower-velocity Unique load still leaded quite a bit like the H110 load did, my gut says it could be one of several things: I'm using 45/45/10 in a magnum cartridge with a non-TL style bullet, the bullet is undersized for the bore diameter and not sealing properly, or that I'm simply pushing a plain based boolit too hard and need a gas check (groan!)

What do you guys think it might be? Since the gun itself has good measurements in all the critical areas (bore dia, chamber throat dia, etc) I really don't think I'm dealing qith a gun quality issue.

Thanks! ~ Jech
.430" should shoot! There is no sense going over throat.
I don't think anything in a .44 needs a GC if you just WD WW metal. Dump the range scrap, you have no idea what is in it.
The boolit is OK, maybe the best of the Semi wad cutters.
Take the H110 load down to 23 to 24 max, there is no need for as much velocity as you think you need. You are exceeding the accuracy point.
Dump the lube and make some Felix.
Use Fed 150 primers with H110. Mag primers triple groups. Many factory jacketed loads use standard primers and I know for sure Fed does.
I hate to say it but it sounds like you just went over max without working loads to see what the gun and boolit needs.
Even Unique does better from 7 to 8 gr.
New brass is not as accurate until shot a few times to even out case tension.
Dies used can ruin accuracy, get Hornady for the best accuracy.
REDUCE THE CRIMP! Only enough to hold boolits under recoil, you are ruining case tension.
And no, you do not have to test one thing at a time, go all the way.
The only thing that will need worked is the powder charge.
Step off the velocity rung, it will break. :mrgreen:

[Jech]

Appreciate all the great advice here guys! I traded in a 357 snubby for this Redhawk because of how unimpressive it's velocity was once I got it onto a chrono so I guess I was a little over eager for the full power stuff.

As for the primers, Federal 150s aren't available in my area but I have seen large pistol primers from Winchester that claimed to be for both magnum or standard loads. I also noticed that CCI still distinguishes between magnum and standard. Would those WLP "hybrids" be a good replacement for Federal 150s?

[Lizard333]

All I shoot is WLP. They make it easy to reload. All I have to stock is one brand of large pistol primers for both magnum and regular.

I think your pushing that boolit to hard without a GC. I push the same boolit with a GC at 1450 FPS, sized to. 430, with no leading and very good accuracy.

My redhawk with a 7.5 inch barrel loves this boolit. Work up your load and go from there. You will find the sweet spot.

[knifemaker]

I am using a plain base boolit in both my 44 special & mag and in my 41 mag. both revolvers are Ruger Blackhawks and the 44 mag rifle is a Marlin 1894.

I size my bullets 1-2 thousand over the groove dia and I use 50/50 clip on wheel weight & pure lead as the alloy. My lube is white label 2500. Pushing these boolits to 1175 in the 44 special, 1400 in the 44 mag blackhawk, and 1700 in the rifle, 1350 in the 41 mag, has resulted in no leading after firing as many as 50 rounds at a sitting.

I always keep my boolits sized at least 1 thousand over groove dia, and 2 thousand and I believe that is the best policy to follow to prevent excessive leading in the average gun. When I started using the 50/50 alloy, I was worried about leading, but have found that I can drive bolits up to 1700 fps and not have any excessive leading. Once in awhile I might get one small spec of lead on the cleaning patch or brush. Using a tried and true lube is also very helpful.:-P

[geargnasher]

First, listen to .44Man.

Personally, I've had bad luck with two lots of WLP in .44 Magnum. I switched to Federal standard LP and groups shrank considerably at 100 yards. I didn't chrono the WLPs to see what was going on, I just looked at the results and didn't ask questions. YMMV on this, just thought I'd throw it out there.

Also, range scrap has no tin in it. Pushing untinned antimonial alloys with a lot of pressure often produces "antimony wash" in my guns. This doesn't affect accuracy much, but sometimes it can in rifles. Adding 1% tin cures it if it's only an alloy problem.

Alox-based tumble lubes are for popguns. Take 44Man's advice and use it under your fenders instead of on your full-house, magnum handgun boolits. Felix lube is what you want for best accuracy, and getting rid of the tumble-lube will likely solve your leading issues if all else is balanced and dimensioned properly. Back that "full house" off a bit, too. Not too much, but as much as you safely can, then work around in .2-grain increments.

So, back off, use real lube, use a standard primer, add some tin, and lap your mould out about a thousandth.

Gear

[44man]

I never had WLP shoot as good either. Once they seemed to work in the .45 Colt but they did not follow through.
Try CCI 300's. They work fine.
Gear has a point that a little tin might fix the alloy.
White Label lube from Glen can save you a lot of trouble.

[popper]

I have trouble with my 40 leaving a bath-tub-ring in the last 1" of a 4" bbl. Thought maybe I was running out of lube til I miked them and found it @ .400 instead of the .401 it was supposed to be. I had changed to a softer alloy that sized small. I'm assuming it bumped up until the pressure dropped and then I got a burned lube dump. I say burned lube because melting the undersized, lubed ones coated the top of the melt with a crumbly black junk, kind of like alox (not using alox). It didn't burn off like oil or wax. I don't think we run out of lube, just blow it out or convert it to something else.

[44man]

That is what I always said about Alox. It makes stinky smoke so it must be burning. It is one of the few lubes that will lead my bores.

[fredj338]

Your rev sounds like it's setup right so I would look at the lube as the culprit, you are likely exceeding the lubes ability in your gun & that bullet. Late leading is often a lube issue not a fit issue. You could just have a rough bore as well. So a souple 100 jacketed, clean & then see if things haven't smoothed up a bit. BTWM while 10gr of Unique is not a high vel load, about 1050fps or so in a long bbl, it is a higher pressure load.

[Hang Fire]

I suggest a slightly larger boolit diameter (.431") and pan lubing if you don't have access to a lubrisizer. I think you're running out of lube before you run out of barrel.

Ditto, have found nothing leads a bore faster than undersized boolits when the gas gets around it cutting the boolit and leading is almost a sure result.

For a squeaky clean bore, get some "Chore Boy" pure brass scrub pads, unwind some and wrap around an old wire brush for tight fit to bore, will be surprised at the junk which comes out. Do not use the el cheapo brass plated steel scrub pads, they can often scratch the bore pretty bad.

[monge]

If your going to tumble lube at that speed I would use it straight and not cut it ,
let the boolits cool slowly and mild crimp you can hone the lee sizer out a 1/2 thou to .4305
I clean the nose of my boolits with a rag and WD to get the Alox off after seating. i have many 44s-44mags and have had good luckwith this method.alox does smoke and leaves a little junk in the barrel but nothing a patch and solvent will not clean.

[gray wolf]

.4295-.430"" sized bullets.
The barrel slugs out at .4295"
A .430" sized boolit will just barely get stuck when dropped through each chamber throat but can be pushed through with little effort...

Seems like a .4295 bullet going through a .4295 bore ( give or take a .0005 )
Sounds like leading to me, unless all the info about 1 or 2 thou. over bore is wrong.
Seems like he should open the throats a little, like to .431 wouldn't that allow for .0015 over bore, providing the measurements are correct.
Please correct me on this. But it seems so obvious.
Perhaps the throats are in fact .431 without opening them, and just a .431 bullet may help. As for the lube ? well one thing at a time.

[Char-Gar]

1. Use 20/2400
2. Loose the Lee snot and use a good proven lube
3. Shoot those bullets air cooled

[Forrest r]

Lots of great advice here & lots of different things to look at/try.

Personally I’d lose the H110 & start out with something mild and work the loads up while checking for leading. I usually do this when I start to reload for a newly acquired firearm. It allows me to work on the:

Boolit fit
Boolit hardness
Boolit lube & speed

The problem I’ve found with H110 is that it’s very unforgiving & will bring out any weaknesses/problem in your reloads.

Good luck & please keep us in the loop

[44man]

Seems like a .4295 bullet going through a .4295 bore ( give or take a .0005 )
Sounds like leading to me, unless all the info about 1 or 2 thou. over bore is wrong.
Seems like he should open the throats a little, like to .431 wouldn't that allow for .0015 over bore, providing the measurements are correct.
Please correct me on this. But it seems so obvious.
Perhaps the throats are in fact .431 without opening them, and just a .431 bullet may help. As for the lube ? well one thing at a time.
.430" should be fine. I shoot most of my boolits at .430" from a .430" groove and .4324" throats, no leading and top accuracy. I admit to liking the RD at .432" but it is a good boolit design that is more important.
Groove size boolits still obturate. (Seal, not expand.)
I really think it is not necessary to go over groove and group testing for years has born this out. It does not hurt to go over but the boolit should not be over throat size.
Rifling is deep enough and bores are the right size in revolvers, unlike a Marlin that needs a larger boolit.
A large boolit with small GG's can have the grooves mashed out before all the lube can be put to use.
I also found one big GG is not as good as two or three. I have not figured out if it is boolit balance or increased rub area in the bore.
I have found no difference between flat bottom or round bottom grooves either, a boolit does not have to slump to provide lube.
Gas does not want to be used to force lube, lube does not seal gas and no gas should ever go past the base of a boolit.
Think of a boolit like a hydraulic piston. Lube keeps the seal from wearing but fluid pressure works only on the seal, expanding it. A boolit is a seal without expanding but the principal is the same. Keep gas or fluid behind the seal.
Even a Minie' ball does not work right unless you have fit to the bore and never depend on skirt expansion alone.
I don't know for sure but burning lube in the bore leaves ash. Boolits tend to run it over, eroding lead. Any leading in the bore will be run over, stripping more lead from boolits. It is better to have a wet lube coating and I see a difference with my first shot after the gun has sat for a long time, the lube in the bore dries out so the first shot will be off a little. Carbon from powder sucks up lube.

[gray wolf]

Well OK, great read--
That puts things in a better perspective, and easy to understand.
It takes time to type all that and some thinking also.
I appreciate your answer.

[TCLouis]

23.5 grains of H110 and start with a thoroughly cleaned barrel.

50 - 100 strokes with Turtle Wax Rubbing compound on a tight patch

[454PB]

The reason I recommended a .431" boolit is that the original post stated that a .430" boolit was easily pushed through the cylinder throats. That suggests to me that the throats are actually .431". The way to verify that is to "slug" the throats with a soft lead slug of over .432", or use pin gauges to get a more accurate measurement.

[44man]

The reason I recommended a .431" boolit is that the original post stated that a .430" boolit was easily pushed through the cylinder throats. That suggests to me that the throats are actually .431". The way to verify that is to "slug" the throats with a soft lead slug of over .432", or use pin gauges to get a more accurate measurement.
Not really that important. Really, you do not need a force fit to throats. Seal the bore and you are home free.

[Char-Gar]

Not really that important. Really, you do not need a force fit to throats. Seal the bore and you are home free.

Amen on this one! Way to much is made over an exact fit to the cylinder throats.

[runfiverun]

.430" should be fine. I shoot most of my boolits at .430" from a .430" groove and .4324" throats, no leading and top accuracy. I admit to liking the RD at .432" but it is a good boolit design that is more important.
Groove size boolits still obturate. (Seal, not expand.)
I really think it is not necessary to go over groove and group testing for years has born this out. It does not hurt to go over but the boolit should not be over throat size.
Rifling is deep enough and bores are the right size in revolvers, unlike a Marlin that needs a larger boolit.
A large boolit with small GG's can have the grooves mashed out before all the lube can be put to use.
I also found one big GG is not as good as two or three. I have not figured out if it is boolit balance or increased rub area in the bore.
I have found no difference between flat bottom or round bottom grooves either, a boolit does not have to slump to provide lube.
Gas does not want to be used to force lube, lube does not seal gas and no gas should ever go past the base of a boolit.
Think of a boolit like a hydraulic piston. Lube keeps the seal from wearing but fluid pressure works only on the seal, expanding it. A boolit is a seal without expanding but the principal is the same. Keep gas or fluid behind the seal.
Even a Minie' ball does not work right unless you have fit to the bore and never depend on skirt expansion alone.
I don't know for sure but burning lube in the bore leaves ash. Boolits tend to run it over, eroding lead. Any leading in the bore will be run over, stripping more lead from boolits. It is better to have a wet lube coating and I see a difference with my first shot after the gun has sat for a long time, the lube in the bore dries out so the first shot will be off a little. Carbon from powder sucks up lube.


i want this post up here twice it's that good.
anybody coming to this thread really needs to read this post carefully. [in my opnion]

[geargnasher]

I agree, great post 44Man! How about copy-pasting it to Run's "something that may help" sticky, with a bold title line to the effect of "comments on revolver loading" or some such?

Gear

[243winxb]

Lyman boolits & tumble-lubed. Not enough lube.

[gray wolf]

I told you it was a good post,
I made a copy of it.

but it is a good boolit design that is more important.
OK don't leave us hanging, is the Lyman 429421 a good bullet ?
How about the 429667 ?

[runfiverun]

those are my two main 44 bullets.
i have a couple of other molds [to fill in gaps and to deal with problem guns] but those are the top two.
i can play with the alloy,or the load,and have got them to shoot [well] in every 44 i have ever had.

that's an excellent idea, gear.

[gray wolf]

runfiverun
I know you like those two bullets, You sent me some
and not only did they look great--they shot very well also.
I thank you again sir.

[MtGun44]

Try a real lube, NRA 50-50 or LBT soft blue. An additional .001 wouldn't hurt, either.
Harder than necessary, but won't actually hurt in most instances.

Bill

[ColColt]

I've had super good luck with the Accurate Molds boolit (43-260B) and BAC lube. Best groups to date in my M29-3 and no leading. Throats are .432" and that's where I size.

[Mal Paso]

I had a 629 with tight throats. A .430" 200g RNFP Special load that worked fine in a Ruger (.432" Throats) produced 12" groups with the 629 until I reamed the throats and the groups went under 4". I think in certain instances tight throats can hurt your performance.

I'm in the just push through the throats/.001-.002" over groove camp and Very happy with the results.


Would you believe SAAMI Spec. for 44 Mag throats is .4325"?

[44man]

I had a 629 with tight throats. A .430" 200g RNFP Special load that worked fine in a Ruger (.432" Throats) produced 12" groups with the 629 until I reamed the throats and the groups went under 4". I think in certain instances tight throats can hurt your performance.

I'm in the just push through the throats/.001-.002" over groove camp and Very happy with the results.


Would you believe SAAMI Spec. for 44 Mag throats is .4325"?
Sounds about right! :veryconfu My SBH has .4324" but has always shot great.
I sold my SRH to a friend long ago, one of the most accurate .44's I ever had. He uses my boolits and loads but I could not hit a thing at 100 yards the other day. He was loading the gun but I opened his box and seen mixed primers. Most were copper colored and the only ones I know like that are Rem LR. I asked but he would not tell me.
Later on the phone he admitted to the LR because he grabbed the wrong box. I don't know how he got them so flush with the case head. We could have had a round go off against the recoil shield.
They were a total disaster and the only time I hit anything was when I picked out the silver primers.
I would have never dropped the hammer on one had I known. I have to pay more attention to what he brings to shoot.

[Jech]

I told you it was a good post,
I made a copy of it.

OK don't leave us hanging, is the Lyman 429421 a good bullet ?
How about the 429667 ?

It's my understanding that the Lyman 429421 is the effective last word on boolits for the 44spl/mag. Keith knew what he was doing when he designed it.

[Mal Paso]

It's my understanding that the Lyman 429421 is the effective last word on boolits for the 44spl/mag. Keith knew what he was doing when he designed it.

In my opinion Miha's H&G 503 clone (MP432256 from MP Molds) is the last word on the 429421 design. It has the Full Forward Drive Band Elmer always talked about and Outstanding Accuracy. ( No slight to Tom and the one-off custom makers )

Edit: There is the Odd gun like my Anaconda where the forward drive band enters the cylinder throat. Could be a problem if the throats are tighter than the boolit and the cartridge won't chamber. That's the theory why Lyman changed the design. I reamed my cylinders .431" to accommodate the gorgeous but .430 groove and the forward band is just in the throats when loaded.

[Stick_man]

One thing that kind of caught my eye about the OP that has not even been mentioned (unless I missed it) is the use of a lot of the Alox lube. I have never had good luck using heavy coats of LLA. It has always been very dirty to shoot. Putting just a touch on the boolits, just enough to coat them but not really enough to darken the boolits will help clean your load up considerably. Also, I like the 45/45/10 Recluse recipe for tumble lubing. 1200-1300 fps shouldn't be a problem for it if your boolit is appropriately sized.

[gray wolf]

I guess a little thread drift here will be OK,
seems we are bringing up some good points. A little has been said about the size of the front band on the 429421 bullet. Mine are undersized, and I have seen some full size ( M&P molds 503 copy )
I have been told that a loaded round will drop to the bottom of the chamber and be off set because of the loose fit in the chamber. ( not centered )
However if the front band is throat size it will support the round and offer it a straight path to the forcing cone. ( true/ false ? / don't know? )
My bullets are a snug fit if I push them through the throats from the front of the cylinder.
However I did a little test and loaded some dummy rounds with the bullets way out. ( full front band/ not undersize ) I still could not see support if I wiggled the bullet from the front of the cylinder. ( so what's up with that )?
Does this say that the throats are in fact tapered front to back ?
back being bigger ?
I don't sit and fret all this stuff but I find all these little bits of info very interesting.
Anyone have any insight ?

[44man]

GW, yes it can help to get a straighter start but I always questioned "how much?"
I went for a time neck sizing revolver brass and fitting to throats. After 2 or 3 firings the brass would get tight and I needed to FL anyway. Testing between them never showed me the full value and I have pretty large chambers and throats. Maybe, just maybe I shaved 1/2" from 50 yard groups, maybe once or twice but on average I can't see or shoot good enough to tell anyone they must do it.
Neither do I shoot super groups all the time, just enough to give some kind of average, some days things still fall apart.
Some of my best groups were shot with sloppy fits when I drop a round in the chamber. Great groups too with boolits as much as .0025" under throat. Seems as they just need to be groove size.
I found you need a good boolit nose to steer into the forcing cone and to maintain boolit integrity 100% throughout the pressure curve. Use the right powder and charge, the right primer that will not blow boolits loose from good case tension. You need an accurate lube. Hide from high velocity, find what shoots best. Each boolit has a need so if it shoots super at 1200 fps, it will not do good at 800 or 1400.
Then you need to twist your mouth just so, stick your tongue out to the left, never right, might help to twist it a little too! :mrgreen:
I will not make you lint pick and hope some little thing will be your miracle, it is the whole package together. If your idea of fit works good for you, just add it to the rest of the important stuff, by itself, it is not complete. Like burning your chicken black before the meat is cooked! :drinks:

[paul h]

It's my understanding that the Lyman 429421 is the effective last word on boolits for the 44spl/mag. Keith knew what he was doing when he designed it.

While I appreciate all that Elmer did in the name of big bore handguns, I personally believe that the ogival wadcutter aka LBT LFN shape is an excelent advancement over the swc. Asside from caliber sized holes in paper, I've yet to find anything a swc does better than an lfn shaped bullet.

[geargnasher]

One thing that kind of caught my eye about the OP that has not even been mentioned (unless I missed it) is the use of a lot of the Alox lube. I have never had good luck using heavy coats of LLA. It has always been very dirty to shoot. Putting just a touch on the boolits, just enough to coat them but not really enough to darken the boolits will help clean your load up considerably. Also, I like the 45/45/10 Recluse recipe for tumble lubing. 1200-1300 fps shouldn't be a problem for it if your boolit is appropriately sized.

Interesting. When I first read that I thought you must not have read any of the responses on the first page because almost every single one flagged LLA as a culprit, but you meant nobody mentioned the QUANTITY used on the boolits, you're right, I didn't notice much about that, either, although 45/45/10 was mentioned a few times. I tend to forget about over-doing the LLA because I only use Recluse lube when I tumble anymore, it works so much better. The lighter coats makes a huge difference, although I maintain that tumble-lubing ain't for the .44 Magnum.

Gear

[Theunsb]

My 2c worth.
Lee sizing die easily get under size using LLA to size.
Ranch Dog's tip of using WD40 for sizing boolits and then lubing it with LLA mixed with a thinning liquid worked for me 100%. Check up on his site and try his method. It worked for me once I had no more undersized boolits after sizing it.

[Jech]

45/45/10 had treated me extremely well with GC'd 170gr 30-30win at 2200fps, fullpower 357 magnum, 45auto, 40s&w, 9mm luger, 380auto, and 45 colt so I assumed it would continue it's success with 44magnum. Oh well!

I worked up my first batch of conventional lube this evening...1lb paraffin, 1lb vaseline and 2tbsp STP. We'll see how it does with the batch of air-cooled boolits I also made. Gonna try an 8gr Unique charge with a very mild crimp.

On a side note, had anyone had any success with Trailboss in 44mag?

[Jech]

Just got back from the range with my father, had a fantastic revolver afternoon!
I'm happy to report that my new load was a huge success! This time I used 10gr/Unique, CCI#300 primers, same Starline brass but the boolits were AC'd instead of WQ'd and lubed with conventional lube instead of 45/45/10. Crimp was also greatly reduced. Groups at 10 yards shrank from 6-8" to 2" if not ragged holes. My barrel looks great as well...only the slightest leading on the leading edges of the rifling where I don't think I cleaned very well before I went shooting. I was also pleasantly surprised to see this load chronograph at 1200fps when I was only expecting around 1000 by the load book. The only thing I didn't like was that the extreme spread was pushing 100fps...thinking about increasing the crimp again.

[44man]

Just got back from the range with my father, had a fantastic revolver afternoon!
I'm happy to report that my new load was a huge success! This time I used 10gr/Unique, CCI#300 primers, same Starline brass but the boolits were AC'd instead of WQ'd and lubed with conventional lube instead of 45/45/10. Crimp was also greatly reduced. Groups at 10 yards shrank from 6-8" to 2" if not ragged holes. My barrel looks great as well...only the slightest leading on the leading edges of the rifling where I don't think I cleaned very well before I went shooting. I was also pleasantly surprised to see this load chronograph at 1200fps when I was only expecting around 1000 by the load book. The only thing I didn't like was that the extreme spread was pushing 100fps...thinking about increasing the crimp again.
Sounds good to me. Just find the best load and then see what the chrono says.

[Char-Gar]

Sounds like you just about have it nailed. I bought a chrono 15 years ago and packed it up and put it away 14 years ago. To my way of thinking, how close the hole on the target are is far more important that how close the number on the display are.

[Jech]

I'm not obsessed about the numbers, I see a chronograph as just another tool to aid in load development. Much like a person can get by without a lead thermometer, digital powder scale, alloy hardness tester, etc but all these tools sure do make reloading easier and consistency more readily attained.

[Char-Gar]

Boy, I am 1 for 4. I dont use a Chronograph, I don't have a lead thermometer or digital powder scale. I do have a lead hardness tester though. I guess that is something, thought it seem very little.

I did know to use AC bullets and a good conventional lube and a better powder, so maybe all is not lost. :-)

[gray wolf]

There's hope for all us older dudes.
Hey I put my old head band on today, still fits, then I weed whacked the grass.\
It's always nice to solve a shooting problem.
Char--you have a great way with words.

[44man]

There's hope for all us older dudes.
Hey I put my old head band on today, still fits, then I weed whacked the grass.\
It's always nice to solve a shooting problem.
Char--you have a great way with words.
You just HAD to do that, didn't you?
I am 74.5 and the yard needs whacked but it is going to be 97*, I need to cast but it is going to be 97*.
I want to shoot but ---97*!!!!!!
Hot flashes on a hot day with my glasses full of sweat so I can't even see grass. [smilie=l:

[Char-Gar]

You just HAD to do that, didn't you?
I am 74.5 and the yard needs whacked but it is going to be 97*, I need to cast but it is going to be 97*.
I want to shoot but ---97*!!!!!!
Hot flashes on a hot day with my glasses full of sweat so I can't even see grass. [smilie=l:

I guess after 70, you start to measure your life in full and half years. After 75, you measure in years and months. After 80, it is years and days. When do you start to count the hours?

I won't be 70 until the 16th of next month, so I am still in full year mode. I will change gears to the half year mode next month. :-)

[popper]

I'd rather count Cb downrange than days or hours left, more accurate too. Don't think I'll cast when it gets over 100.

[Roosters]

Hell Car-Gar I ant but going on 59 and already when someone says this has a lifetime warranty it don’t mean much ???? :? And I think all that grass mowing is overrated 44man !!!! :shock:

[44man]

I told the wife to let the yard go to woods so I have more shooting time. Didn't go over well, she has tried to make it bigger. :bigsmyl2:

[gray wolf]

Well I don't have a mower, just a weed whacker.
Let me tell you it's gettin tough to do the front, the back, and the two sides,
Swingin that sum bitchhh gets me tired.
I have threatened many a time to C-ment the whole spread.
That's about the time the fight usually starts. I guess it looks easy from the deck as a spectator.

[Floydster]

I found the 44 mag one of the easiest calibers to load for using cast bullets without leading. All is over hype is funny:bigsmyl2:

[Char-Gar]

I found the 44 mag one of the easiest calibers to load for using cast bullets without leading. All is over hype is funny:bigsmyl2:

I have found the 38 Special, 45 ACP and 44 Magnum very easy calibers to load with cast bullets for accuracy and little or no leading. Of the bigger boomers, it is easy to get the 44 magnum to perform well.

[MtGun44]

+1 on Char-Gar. I think that these calibers seem to have less dimensional variation in the
chambers, throats, groove diams, etc. I think this helps a lot in being 'easy to cast for'.

Look at the huge variations in 9mm and .45 Colt dimensions, as examples of cartridges that
are more often problem makers for casters.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

Really and truly, the above 3 handgun rounds plus a good 22 LR will do everything we would ever want a handgun to do, with plenty of overlap to boot.

[popper]

Theunsb - I've used WD40 and 45/45/10 for sizer lube but didn't notice a sizing problem. I suppose it should happen if the lube isn't scraped off. My alloy is soft and the case sized it too small. I tried JB weld on the expander but it didn't work. Next attempt is some acrylic enamel paint to get another couple thou.

[gray wolf]

acrylic enamel paint
And how long will that last ??
I have that problem with a spud that is about .001 to small.
I think I need to have someone make me one that is a little bigger.

[tuckerdog]

I shoot a 5.5" super blackhawk but have found that 18-20 grns of 2400 w/429421 @ .430 & 200grn lee rnfp @.430 with 10 grn unique & mihec 433-300 @ .430 with 18grn 4227 work real well. very little leading (most leading is with the 429421) accuracy is very good bore slugs 429. I try to find powders that give good velocity at lower pressures and it has seemed to work well at least for me. I dont care for h-110/w296, i,ve not found the extra intensity to be able to do anything meaningful over the other powders... How dead can you kill a deer or groundhog?