Mosin Nagant M91/30 No Date on Barrel Shank

[VintageRifle]

Hello,

I came across a M91/30 without a date stamped on the barrel shank. Any one else ever see this?

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii244/VintageRifle/0604122103.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii244/VintageRifle/0604122102.jpg

[Milsurp Junkie]

check under the rear tang screw (on the bottom). I have a 91/59 that was "sanitized" that had no date markings.

[TommyT]

That's a strange one Nick. Never saw one with just the date scrubbed off.

[VintageRifle]

I am still trying to figure out if I can see a very faint date stamped in it, or I may just be seeing things. However, if it was stamped, it was not stamped very well at all.

[skimmerhead]

i'm looking at buying two mosin nagant within the next week or so, could someone share some what to look for, what is more desireable and what is not?

skimmerhead:?:

[VintageRifle]

Check the bore as best you can. You will find many with bad bores, but there are some with almost mint bores. Check for matching numbers, even if forced matched or line outs. I have many with lined out magazine floor plates. I would check out 7.62x54r.net for more information. They also have a rarity chart (needs a bit of updating, but it is a good reference point).

[WineMan]

Most of the ones that are available now are WW2/Post Production. You may find a Hex receiver out there but they do not shoot any better/worse than the round ones. Trigger pulls can be from awful to stiff. Sometimes you can find an ex sniper which will have three plugged holes on the left of the receiver. I like this site for info:

http://www.7.62x54r.net/

Check out the ususal suspects,: bore condition, rust under the wood, counter bored muzzle, etc. They are simple and rugged beasts and can shoot amazingly well off the rack. They are usually zeroed to 300 m/yards on the lowest sight setting with full loads.

Wineman

[skimmerhead]

thanks Fella's, this info is going to be a great help.

skimmerhead :lovebooli

[wallenba]

Skimmerhead, get some pin ages. .300- to 302+. I would not buy one over .301-. The groove diameter is what you need to know most, but slugging in the store usually is not possible. Next, try to get one from the Tula arsenal. These have a large star on the reciever. One made prior to WWII will usually be higher quality than one made during the war. I like 1940 or older. Laminated stocks and hex recievers are considered desirable. Most sellers are aware of this and will charge a little more for them. Also, matching numbers on the reciever, bolt, butt plate and magazine box is a plus.
Open the bolt, look inside at the left next to the magazine follower. If it looks like a plug was welded in there, it would be an ex sniper. Good find.
Oh yeah, if you can avoid it, don't buy one with a counter-bored muzzle.

[odfairfaxsub]

i betchya its either 1942-44

[tomme boy]

Take it out of the stock an look at the bottom. It has been rebarreled. They ground off most of the markings. I have had a few that you could see the year on the bottom of the barrel. It may be really faint.

[trooperdan]

Moisin receivers are usually marked on the underside of the tang, see what it says there.

[VintageRifle]

Currently not in my possession and I it will be about 30 days until I will have a chance to dig into it further.

Anything unique about this or would it be considered common? I have looked at 100's of the 91/30 rifles and have never seen one without a date on the barrel.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii244/VintageRifle/0606121803a-2.jpg

The is flat across the top, not indented like the photo shows. The indentation in the photo is caused by the flash and the image being over exposed. These images are taken with a low quality cell phone camera.

[Spike]

I have an undated Tula hex receiver Mosin. Yours is the only other undated one I've seen beside mine. Sorry for the lousy photo.
-Spike
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b8/spike440/Mosin/Mosin002.jpg
PS
My first post here, Howdy folks :).

[junkbug]

Did either of you remove the barreled action from the stock to look for a date stamp on the underside of the rear tang? Usually, I would not suggest going overboard just to find a small piece of historical information, but removeing the stock is not too hard to do. And both of you seem interested in their manufacture date.

Sorry to say, I have no insight as to wheather this was done for a specific reason, or was simply neglected at the factory. Since neither show any other evidence of being buffed, or altered, my guess is that it it is just a factory mistake.

[Spike]

There are some stamps on the tang on mine facing the wood, but they are nearly obliterated. I have another lousy photo though.
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b8/spike440/Mosin/Mosin018.jpg
Appears to be a double struck star and either a three or a five. there is an eighth inch wide groove carved in it though so the marks are mostly gone.
-Spike

[VintageRifle]

Right now this is the best photo I can get of the tang date on the no date round receiver M91/30. Going to say its a 1943.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii244/VintageRifle/Mosin%20Nagant/30TangDate.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii244/VintageRifle/Mosin%20Nagant/CrossedHammers.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii244/VintageRifle/Mosin%20Nagant/CrossedHammersonStock.jpg

[Spike]

Wow VintageRifle, your tang is as gnarly as mine! I think we may have the most unique Mosins out there myself. Why, there must be only hundreds of thousands of no date 91/30s, lol.
-Spike

[gew98]

This is not uncommon as you may think. The russian system for salvaging small arms was crude at best. Rifles rebarreled often did not get a "install date" applied to new spare barrels fitted to them. With 95% or better of the mosin rifles over here available being refurbished import marked specimens you will likely find more of these than you can shake a stick at.
I personally have yet to encounter a russian laminate stocked 91/30 that was'nt a rebuild post WW2. The only SKS I ever had that was laminate and not a refurb was a 50's dated tula with Vietnam bringback papers from 1971... and it was a factory original and all matched but the sheet metal magazine floorplate. Even had the NVA sling and complete kit in buttstock as well as a northern vietnamese name scratched in the minty stock ( Tham Van ) .
Many years ago a bunch of these no date mosins turned up in spanish civil war surplus as well.

[VintageRifle]

How would one tell if it had a replacement barrel installed? The barrel that is on it is not new as it shows wear on the muzzle, and has light frost in the grooves.

Additional Photos, click to enlarge:

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii244/VintageRifle/Mosin%20Nagant/th_IMG_1452.jpg (http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii244/VintageRifle/Mosin%20Nagant/?action=view&current=IMG_1452.jpg)

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii244/VintageRifle/Mosin%20Nagant/th_IMG_1460.jpg (http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii244/VintageRifle/Mosin%20Nagant/?action=view&current=IMG_1460.jpg)

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii244/VintageRifle/Mosin%20Nagant/th_IMG_1261.jpg (http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii244/VintageRifle/Mosin%20Nagant/?action=view&current=IMG_1261.jpg)

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii244/VintageRifle/Mosin%20Nagant/th_IMG_1267.jpg (http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii244/VintageRifle/Mosin%20Nagant/?action=view&current=IMG_1267.jpg)

Possibly a cut down M91 barrel?

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii244/VintageRifle/Mosin%20Nagant/th_IMG_1280.jpg (http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii244/VintageRifle/Mosin%20Nagant/?action=view&current=IMG_1280.jpg)

[gew98]

Just because a 'barrel' shows wear and tear... means what ?. The germans for example in both world wars salvaged untold tens of thousands of rifles/small arms. That these salvaged arms went back to the shooting war and or as a souvenir and got neglected is for certain. The russians refurbed and or stored wads of rifles with not "perfect" but serviceable bores like any other combatant did and still does.

[VintageRifle]

This is not uncommon as you may think. The russian system for salvaging small arms was crude at best. Rifles rebarreled often did not get a "install date" applied to new spare barrels fitted to them.

Guess I was taking your comment to mean that it had a new barrel installed during the refurbishment process and therefore it should be wearing a new barrel, not a used one. Now if you are saying that the rifle had a new barrel installed during the war and went back into the field, that would be slightly different. Installing a used barrel to get a rifle back into service is also not the same as having a "new spare barrel fitted".

Salvage is also different than NEW.

[3006guns]

Remember, many of these rifles were originally built in the wildest haste during 1942-43. It's entirely possible that some simply were not stamped due to the production speed. Kind of hard to concentrate on quality when you can hear the Nazi guns in the distance.

I have a "rearsenalled" 91/30 with an almost new bore and all the "correct" marks, but one side of the receiver is ground smooth and the other side has rough machining marks....and it was sent out the door that way. Those were wild times............

[tomme boy]

Look inside the reciever and see if it has a inner ring where the barrel seats. If it has been re-barreled, they removed the ring to help speed up the head spacing of the barrel. Instead of machining two sepperate shoulders to have the barrel be seated, they removed the inner reciever ring. That way the barrel is only seated against the front of the reciever.

[VintageRifle]

I believe the lack of a receiver ring was a feature found on WWII and after receivers. It was also found on older receivers that had been re-barreled.

I could be wrong on that thinking. The information I have is from 7.62x54R.net.

[tomme boy]

It was done on all of them that were rebarreled, and the war time ones. It made it easy to re use the old barrels. That was why I said to look on the bottom. The Russians did not throw anything away. The rifles were more expensive an worth more than the people were to the State.

[VintageRifle]

My understanding is that post 1941 receivers did not have an inner receiver ring. It was to speed up the manufacturing process during the war. This one wears a 1943 receiver which does not have a inner receiver ring and was not originally made with one. Any receiver which was made with an inner receiver ring and that was to be re-barreled had the inner receiver ring removed before the barrel was installed.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii244/VintageRifle/Mosin%20Nagant/30TangDate.jpg