Crimp does not fully open ??

[gray wolf]

I noticed the 44 Mag case crimp does not fully open upon firing.
I can not slide the case over a new bullet.
I am thinking this is not a good thing, it seems it could scrape the bullet when fired. -- To light a load ? to heavy a crimp ??
Any input as to why and how to cure it ? Is it not a problem ?
WW bullet-- 250 grain-- #429421,
7 grains of tite group, and 9 grains of long shot.
I would say I am using a Med. crimp, you can definitely see the crimp.
I feel the case turn in and then the press handle goes a little smidgen more.
I noticed a little leading in the cylinder at the case bullet junction just before the throat begins. Not trying to be a nit picker, it's just that I
Still don't know for sure whats normal and what should be corrected.

[9.3X62AL]

How do the loads shoot? If whatever leading occurs isn't a heavy build-up.....and the loads shoot accurately enough to do the business you intend them to do.......I wouldn't sweat it.

[John Boy]

I noticed the 44 Mag case crimp does not fully open upon firing.
I can not slide the case over a new bullet.
I am thinking this is not a good thing, it seems it could scrape the bullet when fired. -- To light a load ? to heavy a crimp ??
Any input as to why and how to cure it ? Is it not a problem ?
My guess ... Tensile strength of brass harder than alloy of bullet for pressure of the reload

[RobS]

Brass springs back and thankfully so other wise brass cases would be stuck in your cylinders after each shot. The same thing happens with the exiting bullet (brass springs back) but if you want to know for sure simply load up a dummy round and pull it to check and see what's going on to the boolit. I use a kenetic puller because they are cheap.

[Old Caster]

As long as your leading doesn't continue to get worse shot after shot and accuracy isn't bad, I wouldn't worry about it but I always use the least crimp I can get away with just because it is easier on the brass and likely better for accuracy. Generally I don't crimp as much as a factory round.-- Bill --

[geargnasher]

Actually it DOES open on firing. After the boolit passes and the pressure differential returns to zero, the brass returns to a relaxed state, which with lighter loads is usually about half the crimp you loaded it to, and the body of the case about halfway in between the diameter of the chamber at firing pressure and what you sized it to.

Gear

[canyon-ghost]

Experiment with your crimp. I use RCBS dies and I think they are all taper crimp. My 44 Special and 41 magnum both come with an expander die for belling the case mouth. I use it every time if needed.

I take a new case, chamfer inside and out, then bell. I slip the lead bullet in and crimp lightly (into a crimp groove) just so it straightens the case. I have just a bit of an edge on the case mouth. This is verified with the cylinder, I make sure they'll chamber.

I have had the 41 Magnum knock the bullets forward until the cylinder jammed. I pushed them back in with my thumb! I fired them, then reset the crimp die, screwing it downward just another 1/16th to 1/8th of a turn. It only takes a little to tighten it. When the bullet is gripped tighter than I can tap loose with any tool (short of banging on it hard), I know it's there for good.

Normal for me, just enough crimp to leave a straight case (from the belling die) and have a bit of an edge that clears everything.

Good Luck,
Ron

PS: If the crimp is excessive, it will bulge the brass below it. No good. It should only crimp at the mouth

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/545/38specialcrimpstyle.jpg/sr=1

[runfiverun]

try backing the die off a titch.
if you can run your finger nail down the boolit and have it not catch on the brass thats enough.
if the boolits aren't walking forward under recoil that's enough.
if they aren't being shoved back into the case in a levergun that's enough.

[44man]

The boolit is too soft. Crimp does not spring open and then return.
The boolit IS getting scraped going through the crimp.
Here is a fired .500 case with a new boolit started by hand, this is what you should have.
The leading in the chamber is what is scraped off.

[gray wolf]

Thank you for all the feed back.
I respect all the folks that helped with my little question, Perhaps not so little.
But I am confused as to how so many folks can have so many different opinions,
and they all seem to make sense, when you think about it.
Soft bullet ? now that seems logical. But people do shoot soft bullets.
To much crimp ? I can see that being a factor.
Work hardened brass ? could be.
I think I am still in the dark a little.
Leading in the cylinder from the bullet being scraped, ( soft bullet ) that makes sense to me. That could even put bits of lead in the forcing cone, it has to go someplace.
My loads are not hot loads, the crimp could be to heavy.
Pulled bullets seem to be the same size as before loading.
I think this is one of those try one thing at a time and see what helps.
Accuracy is not bad, no leading in the barrel, just a small amount in the cylinder
and just a little in the forcing cone.

[44man]

Thank you for all the feed back.
I respect all the folks that helped with my little question, Perhaps not so little.
But I am confused as to how so many folks can have so many different opinions,
and they all seem to make sense, when you think about it.
Soft bullet ? now that seems logical. But people do shoot soft bullets.
To much crimp ? I can see that being a factor.
Work hardened brass ? could be.
I think I am still in the dark a little.
Leading in the cylinder from the bullet being scraped, ( soft bullet ) that makes sense to me. That could even put bits of lead in the forcing cone, it has to go someplace.
My loads are not hot loads, the crimp could be to heavy.
Pulled bullets seem to be the same size as before loading.
I think this is one of those try one thing at a time and see what helps.
Accuracy is not bad, no leading in the barrel, just a small amount in the cylinder
and just a little in the forcing cone.
Go through it a little.
Too much crimp only ruins tension, use ONLY enough to hold boolits under recoil.
My best groups have been with brass fired over 40X so work hardening is zip.
Too soft will shoot without leading but no good groups can be had.
Try to make cast act like jacketed.
The case and boolit I showed was just water dropped WW metal. Toughen the boolit to open the crimp and prevent slump and skid.
It really is easy.
Changing the crimp alone does not solve the problem of opening it. A very light crimp that does not open will still damage a boolit.

[Char-Gar]

Grey Wolf.. Diverse, conflicting and sometimes contradictory advise seems to be the hall mark of this board in recent times.

All I can tell you, is I have experience the same thing as you have and asked myself the same question as you did. However, accuracy have never been degraded by this, and I ceased to worry about it. It just gets filed under one of the things that happens in cast bullet revolver shooting.

[Wayne Smith]

Grey Wolf, I think you nailed it when you said your loads were not hot. The cartridge needs enough pressure to open the crimp and hold it open for a millisecond and I bet your boolits are jumping the crimp without it fully opening. Not enough pressure for the brass. Your boolits could also be too soft, remember that those who shoot soft boolits usually use light enough loads that they don't need a crimp, or only a very light crimp.

Either reduce your crimp dramatically or increase your load to a lot closer to a max load that needs that crimp.

[gray wolf]

Thank you all for the info,
Yes my metal is not to hard, it's the same alloy I use for my 45 ACP ( all I have )
and yes the slight leading up front could be the bullets jumping the crimp and getting a little tore up and or reduced in size.
So I think in my case I need to lighten the crimp and use softer loads for this metal.
I could also try beefing up the load a little and water dropping the bullets while also adjusting the crimp.
My loads are a little sooty so I know the pressure is low for the 9 grains of
long shot powder. The 7 grains of tite group is not breaking any speed records either.
I have a little bulls eye powder I may try for these tin can and paper target loads.
I would like to have a nice hard bullet and some HS6, 2400, and unique,
But money wont allow it right now, so I will experiment with the light loads and perhaps just water drop the bullets. At least I can shoot and have some fun.
Fun is good but I like to do things the best I can, it's just me I guess.
That's why I ask so many questions that seem to be nit picky to some.
But I know you guys love me anyway Ha, Ha, you must EH. Your always there to help me out. But then you guys help everyone.

[44man]

There is a little misconception on what opens crimp.
It is the boolit alone. The brass does not jump open all at once from pressure, leaving the boolit hanging free.
More pressure over a longer duration will keep brass cleaner and free of carbon but has little to do with crimp. Even if high pressure irons crimp off, the boolit still had to go through it first.

[atr]

hi grey wolf,,,
I shoot the same #429421, and usually up in 90% of Max pressure. I keep my crimps to a minimum and have not ever experienced what you described. There should be just enough crimp to keep the boolit in the cylinders from backing out under recoil. Its suprising me how little crimp is need to achieve this. My suggest would be to lighten up on you crimping..

[Wayne Smith]

Does the boolit have a gas check? I shoot 50/50 GC'ed boolits full speed out of my Ruger SBH.

[gray wolf]

I shoot the same #429421, and usually up in 90% of Max pressure. I keep my crimps to a minimum and have not ever experienced
90% max loads, I was no place near that. I have lightened the crimp


The brass does not jump open all at once from pressure, leaving the boolit hanging free.
More pressure over a longer duration will keep brass cleaner and free of carbon but has little to do with crimp. Even if high pressure irons crimp off, the boolit still had to go through it first.
That would say to harden the bullet I will try water dropping

Does the boolit have a gas check? I shoot 50/50 GC'ed boolits full speed out of my Ruger SBH.
I have some 429244 bullets I can try, I can gas check them. I have tried them before but not at high speed. They were gas checked.
I wonder how folks shoot 44 Special loads and other cowboy action loads and do not have this problem.
Example
Hodgons load data:
44 Magnum, 240 gr. L S W C 4.7 gr. tite group Vel. 801 11,100 CUP.

[Char-Gar]

90% max loads, I was no place near that. I have lightened the crimp


That would say to harden the bullet I will try water dropping

I have some 429244 bullets I can try, I can gas check them. I have tried them before but not at high speed. They were gas checked.
I wonder how folks shoot 44 Special loads and other cowboy action loads and do not have this problem.
Example
Hodgons load data:
44 Magnum, 240 gr. L S W C 4.7 gr. tite group Vel. 801 11,100 CUP.

Things become "problems" when they are defined as such. Attach to term "problem" to anything and now you have a problem.

[44man]

The CA shooters do but they shoot so close and fine accuracy is not needed. I would hate to see the leading they get.
There is always "go bang" and then long range accuracy.
The .44 needs no GC's and if the boolit is too soft, the GC is at the end anyway. A GC boolit can lead as bad as any boolit.
If alloy and a GC is in perfect balance, the GC will halt skid and seal the bore but it will not stop scraping a boolit through crimp.
Even air cooled WW metal is not as accurate as water dropped in my guns.
I use nothing but PB boolits in my .475, 45-70 and .500 JRH.
I do have some GC boolits but find no difference except price.
I have shot many 50-50, GC boolits but have found they need to be oven hardened to at least 20 BHN. I still get some fliers. Oven hardening DOES NOT ALTER EXPANSION ON GAME.
Softer lead needs a GC.

[gwpercle]

I ran into a similar problems when trying to load reduced loads in a 41 mag.

For light loads in 357 mag. we have 38 spcl brass, in 44mag. there is 44 spcl. brass but no 41 special brass . Magnum brass is harder than special brass so when I light loaded in 41 mag brass, it didn't open as much as a heavy load.

So I solved that problem by annealing ( softening ) the case mouth to the depth of the boolit. Now light loads shoot just fine . I keep these seperate and only use them for reduced loads.

If you don't want to use 44 special brass for your reduced loads you could anneal the case mouths. I would use 44 special...like I use 38 special brass for target loads in my 357 mag... when you pick the round up you know it is a light load because of headstamp. And just be sure your loads are not over maximum for 44 special just on the off chance it gets in a 44 special gun you don't want any accidents. sometimes stuff like that happens

gary

[Char-Gar]

Anealing case mouths of magnum handgun cases WILL NOT make them unsuitable or unsafe for magnum loads.

I am increasingly reluctant to dispute the content of threads on this board, but this one begs to be challenged.

[gray wolf]

I took the first step today and water quenched my bullets,
Holly Carp, they are some kind of hard. I sized them and I could tell the difference,
I would think they will harden even more over time.
My throats are .432 and the bore I though was .429 now slugs at .430 after the thread choke was removed.
My bullets were sizing .431 and now they are .432, I guess the water dropped bullets are springing back .001
Well this should make the fit perfect in the throats. I will take that out of the equation for now.
There is no way I can purchase 44 special brass, The 44 mag should work with full house loads and with reduced loads. I would like to attempt to do this without going through to many hoops.

[paul h]

For me, I'm mostly concerned with accuracy. If I find a good medium load that shoots accurately, I'll tollerate a little bit of leading. Personally I think handguns rarely require water quenched bullets to get good accuracy and prevent leading, though it does have it's place.

While I've tried many combinations to get steller accuracy with big bore revolvers at mild levels, I've found that mid to max levels seem to yield the best accuracy for me. Hence with your 250 gr bullet I'd consider just increasing your powder charges to see how it affects accuracy and your cylinderin leading. You just might find that as your powder charges increases and velocity gets around 1000 fps that your groups shrink and everything starts working together nicely.