Starting Out - "precision casting"

[Sloffie]

I am new here. But so far I have gathered a lot of information, but there is sooo much info to sift through, so I thought about asking straight.

I want to start casting for my Lee Metford MkII with Enfield barrel, Lee Enfield No1 MkIII* and my No4 MkII. With special mention to the Lee Metford MkII, for which I want to develop a black powder load.

So far I have all the kit for casting 50cal Muzzle Loader boolits. Lee Melting Pot, mold, ingot molds, Lyman Mold handles, Lyman Ladle and various bits and pieces. What I do not yet own are sizing dies other molds.
For my muzzle loader, I just use pure lead straight and I get very good results. But I have never cast for modern firearms.

My motivation is mainly cheaper shooting, but also I love casting. So I recon, why not cast for my Lee Enfields as well.

This is what I want to do: 200gr boolit in front of black powder for the Lee Metford and 200gr in front of smokeless powder. I am looking at Lee Molds, as they are very affordable. But I have been using lyman molds for the muzzle loader.

I would greatly appreciate it if someone would give me some links to threads that will help me and also give me a short list of what I will need to cast harder lead. Do I use the same melting pot, just empty it each time, or is that a big NO NO?

[Jack Stanley]

Welcome aboard Sloffie ,
Links I don't have but one of the things I have learned about loading "precision" is bullet fit . One of the first rifles I started loading for was a number one mark three with a groove diameter of .318" :!: It was however , capable of excellent accuracy when I got mold that made bullets to fit .

I never tried black powder , though I got the velocity right for the mark one load with some very slow smokeless stuff :smile:

Jack

[alfloyd]

You can use the same pot with out any problems.
Just empty it between alloys or add to the soft lead to make it harder for rifle boolits.
You will need an alloy that is harder than lead for the rifles.
Add wheel weights or linotype to the lead to harden it.
You will need to empty the pot before going back to soft lead.

Lafaun

[Echo]

Welcome aboard. Proud to have you be a part of our addiction! First - if you don't have the Lyman book on casting, get one. Might also get the RCBS book, too. I'll bet they are available on eBay, or Amazon, if they aren't available locally.
And DL the Fryxell book. Outstanding.
Equipment wise, you are ready to start. But, Be Advised - you will find excuses to purchase more - and more - &cetera!
And - TaDa! This is my 3,000th post!

[Sloffie]

Congrats on your 3000th post. ;)

Ok great! It is the same with any hobby. You do not just want the basics. All the other bits and pieces makes it soooo much sweeter.
I have some impure lead that I got from old diving weights. Seems like it has a lot of zink as it looks like corrugated iron on the surface. Its too hard for my ML, but who knows, might work for the Lee Enfields.

I will probably buy an extra pot for the alloy. Just heat and pour.

I will look for those books.

It is a challenge I accepted to try and recreate the .303 Mk1 cartridge. I have some jacketed bullets that I had made up, but they did not come out right. And they are hellish expensive.
So a 200gr Lyman mold will do the trick. The cast bullets would look the same as the original nickel copper jacketed bullets. Will look great in my Boer War Bandoleer.

I use my Lee Enfields to shoot High Power Rifle here in South Africa. 200m and 300m. I know the NRA developed the discipline.

[slim1836]

I would suggest reading up on slugging the barrel in order to find out which boolit will be the best fit for the weapon. This is most important and will affect the accuracy.

Hopefully, you can get away with just one mold and a sizer or two.

Slim

[tonyjones]

Sloffie,

Welcome! Scroll down to the bottom of this page, or any page on this site, and click on Cast Bullet Notes from LASC. There you will find a link to the Fryxell/Applegate book "From Ingot to Target..." as well as more excellent info on alloys, fluxing, lube, etc. than you will be able to assimilate in a session or two. Also, do a Google search for LBT (Lead Bullet Technology) and read everything there paying particular attention to slugging your bore and making a throat swage. Getting your bullets sized correctly is always important but critical when casting for milsurps as the chamber throats can run a little BIG!

I've spent a couple of months in your country hunting and loved every minute of it.

Regards,

Tony

[Bigslug]

I'd recommend a gas checked bullet mold for your .303's to help keep the "skid marks" under control.

I'd also suggest you take a look at Hodgdon's Triple Seven blackpowder substitute for propellant in your Metford - unless you've just GOTTA have that big white cloud coming out of the muzzle. It's non-corrosive and a lot easier to clean up after than the real stuff.

[Dan Cash]

In addition to the good advice already given, you can treat your black powder load like your muzzle loader, that is soft bullets; probably no harder than 20:1. Here, I don't think the gas check is necessary but won't hurt any thing. I strongly disagree with the use of BP substitutes in cartridge application. I have yet to see any substitute produce satisfactory results in a cartridge and I shoot with lots of BP guys. If the subs worked, the guys shooting long range matches (to more than 1000 yards) they would be using them. They are not.

Another poster here of great 303 knowledge is 303 Guy. I would callup his posts and read them.

[hanover67]

Like you, I've been reseaching cast bullet loads for the .303 for my 1917 BSA No.1 MK III* and discovered more information than I can absorb. Two links I have found useful are .303british.com and the English Enfield forum website.

I recently tried the Lyman 311413 165gr gas check bullet over various charges of Unique powder starting an 11.0 gr. I am about to try the Lyman 311291, a 170gr gas check bullet, which is a round nose type. I believe the British switched to a 174gr pointed spitzer-type bullet in 1917, hence the asterisk (*) designation on the rifle.

I slugged my barrel at .312" so I'm sizing bullets to .313" but I may also try .314". I don't have a sizing die for that diameter yet, but fortunately bullets drop from my 311413 mold at that diameter. the other mold is bigger (.316").

I haven't tried Lee molds because they seem to need a lot of remedial work to get them to properly cast bullets, and so far I've had really good luck with older Lyman molds I've bought at auctions.

Good luck with your Enfield project, and keep us (me) posted as things develop.

[Jack Stanley]

LBT is the maker of the mold I use for the mark one load . From my alloy it casts at about two hundred sixteen grains . I made an impact slug of the throat and sent it in and the mold came back flawless . There are other good makers you can get it done at I bet , I can't say enough good about the LBT .

Jack

[Sloffie]

Wow thanks for the great response! I will do some reading up and then slug the barrels. I am still waiting for the license for my Lee Metford. Yes, here in South Africa you buy a rifle, then you have to leave it at the GS while you apply for a license at the Police. That takes about 5 months. Only then can you collect your rifle.
Both my No1 MkIII* and No4 Mk2 have new barrels. The 1916 No1 MkIII* received a new barrel in 1952. It is still shiny. The Lee Metford MkII is a 1895 manufacture and it received a new barrel in 1909. It has seen use, so I need to check that barrel.
As for Black Powder, we here in SA only get german WANO FFG and some locally made substitutes. Our substitutes are weaker than real BP and will be no good for cartridge guns, especially not the .303.

[runfiverun]

cases with a neck/shoulder have a tendency to raise pressures with black powder.
that not so efficient powder might work in the 303 where it wouldn't do so well in a straight walled case.

[Sloffie]

One thing I seemed to not have thought of it the cost of gas checks. Phoned our local GS this morning and they quoted me ZAR700 ($87) for a box of Lyman Gas Checks. Per 1000. That is quite hefty. But I am hoping I can get my hands on some cheaper hornady gas checks.

As for BP in the .303 case, the old Mk1 ammo had compressed BP pellets. This produced a MV of 1800FPS with a 215gr bullet. Apparently with modern BP it is very difficult to replicate as the powder is not as compressed as the pellet that was made for the .303 cartridge.
I will experiment and see what happens. ;)

[runfiverun]

airc they placed the pellet in the case then formed the shoulder/neck of the case around it.
1800 fps can easily be achieved with smokeless powder.
and that unefficient powder can also be cleaned up with a kicker charge [about 5 grs] of a fast shotgun/revolver powder.

[Sloffie]

Yes, with smokeless powder it is easy. But I want to achieve it with BP. Will try the kicker charge if I do not come right. Thanks for the tip.

[Wayne Smith]

Couple of suggestions: Even with new barrels you really need to know the dimensions - depending on when/where they were made they can be very different. Second, PM our own Blammer about gas checks. He is the one that handles the best made gas checks here but I have no idea if he has sent any overseas or if there are any particular problems to that.

There is a huge amount of information on this site about the .303, just do a search on that, or any specific terms related, you will have more information than you know to use.

[blackthorn]

If the scrap diving weights you have do indeed contain zinc, they will make VERY poor bullet alloy! Do a search on zinc before you frustrate yourself trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Good luck on your search for satisfaction.

[Sloffie]

Thos diving weight ingots look crappy. So I am assuming they are useless. Will put them aside. That is how one learns.
Will go hunt for WW around town. Can I use them straight? Or should I go 50/50 WW and pure lead?

I have done some further searching on the forum but there is soooooo much information to sift through (its a good thing), but it is frustrating when you want a quick answer. As for gas checks, is it really needed for the .303? A friend of mine who casts a lot said that I need not use gas checks if I keep my velocity low. If that is the case, then I will be very happy as it will save me a lot of money.
What do you say?

I also have trouble finding literature on casting locally. The Lyman book is not available at any of our big gunbook shops.

[Echo]

Thos diving weight ingots look crappy. So I am assuming they are useless. Will put them aside. That is how one learns.
Will go hunt for WW around town. Can I use them straight? Or should I go 50/50 WW and pure lead?

I have done some further searching on the forum but there is soooooo much information to sift through (its a good thing), but it is frustrating when you want a quick answer. As for gas checks, is it really needed for the .303? A friend of mine who casts a lot said that I need not use gas checks if I keep my velocity low. If that is the case, then I will be very happy as it will save me a lot of money.
What do you say?

I also have trouble finding literature on casting locally. The Lyman book is not available at any of our big gunbook shops.

DL Glen Fryxell's book 'From Ingot To Target', from this site. It is outstanding.

And Pat Marlin, on this site, sells gas check making equipment. Check it out.

[Sloffie]

Thanks! Will check it out.

[Sloffie]

I have done some reading in that free book. Still struggling to find the lyman book locally.

So here is what I want to do. I would like a cast load that works well up to 300yds and more if one can.
Going to use gas checked bullets.
Now because the .303BR will generate quite a bit of pressure and velocity (around 1900FPS), I will need a very hard bullet.
Do you think I can just use WW straight and water quench? Or should I add some extra tin?

Another thing is lube, I need a decent lube for those long barrels. I have a 1895 Lee Metford that has been rebarreled with an Enfield barrel in 1908 or somewhere around there. The barrel is still in very good shape.
The lube that I want to make up is Felix lube. Read a lot of good things about it. I thought I could just use Lee Liquid alox straight, BUT it will not be sufficient... or so I have read.
For the Felix lube, I want to add a bit of Liquid Alox and a bit of Ballistol oil. The idea is that the ballistol will also help with softening fouling and thus also smear the bore.
Going to do pan lubing.
What do you think?

And then, at the moment I can only afford a Lee mold. So I ordered the 185gr Lee Mold, the only one listed for the .303. It is .312. Now what I do not understand is why Lee do not make a .312 sizing die? .311 is way too small and you cannot "upsize" a .312 bullet to .314. So now what? I cannot afford a lube sizer at the moment fromt Lyman or RCBS.

[PAT303]

Sloffie get a CBE mold from Australia,the 225grn bore rider is excellent and they look like Mk6's when loaded.I use slower powders in mine and shoot unsized boolits at 2000fps using alloy around 20 Brinnel.I have used BP,just fill the case with FFFg,a lube wad and then the boolit,you will need the lube wad,the Lee 303 boolit will cast under .300 on the nose,thats about .005 to small. Pat

[Sloffie]

I will have a look at the CBE mold. What do they cost? The website does not want to load.

[Sloffie]

Never mind, I have received a quote. Very quick response I must say. I will order one of these when funds allow.
I already have the LEE mold on the way. What I will do is see what diameters the bullets drop at. If they are to small I will beagle or lap the mold. I am not to worried about "out-of-round" bullets. If I run into issues I will size them round. But I read that beagling a mold works very well generally speaking.

All I need now is some alloy, I only have pure lead. What I also still need is some way to test the hardness. I am sure there is a cheaper method than buying a Lee or other hardness tester.

[Bullet Caster]

First, let me welcome you to Castboolits. You've obviously made definite choices of your present undertakings, but let me urge you to change your lube requirements regarding black powder cartridge rifle (BPCR) loadings. Primarily, black powder and petroleum products DO NOT MIX. If you use your current choice the fouling will become cruddy and hard and even harder to remove. You might choose SPG or some natural lube for BPCR. I must make it perfectly clear that I am no expert, nor do I claim to be one. Just trying to advise you on what I have learned reading the comments on this site under the subtopic of Black Powder Cartridge Rifle shooting.

You should search the subtopic threads on what modern black powder cartridge shooters are using for lube. You will gain much insight on the requirements for black powder cartridge loading, lube requirements, using cards over powder to using kicker charges or "duplexing" as it is called. I think you could search on the key word "duplex" and come up with enough topics to keep you reading for a week or more.

I have never loaded duplex loads, nor would I ever recommend doing such, my reasons being personal, nor have I ever loaded black powder cartridge rifle. I have a flintlock rifle and a caplock pistol I use for black powder. However, I have loaded black powder cartridges for my Colt .45 and have shot them in my Winchester Mod. 94 carbine, but then that's not black powder cartridge rifle reloading. It's just using available powder for cartridge reloading.

I can understand why you want to duplicate the old .303 BP cartridge. There's nothing more enjoyable than shooting the black--"holy black" as some call it. Lol. I enjoy shooting black as much as the next guy, but I feel that it has it's place. Replicating history notwithstanding. Many times I have enjoyed nothing more than taking the field and "burnin' some powder" as we used to call it during our Civil War shootouts a few years past. Just gotta love that history. BC

[Sloffie]

Ooh yes, I totally forgot about my original post talking about black powder... :)
Thanks for reminding me. I was so carried away with all the new knowledge.

Yes I am perfectly aware about the problems with mixing black powder and petroleum based stuff. I have cooked up some BP lube before.

Let me just clear things up a bit. The whole "holy black" in the Lee Metford is something I want to try, but I do not want to keep loading it... Black Powder in South Africa is more expensive than nitro powder. I shoot a Lyman Deerstalker in 50cal. Am already casting for it, but that is easy peasy. Just pure lead into the mold and voila.
So I will be shooting the bulk of my cast boolits with modern powder. Will, however, if the whole exercise is successful, keep a few loaded with black powder for when the time comes and I want to make smoke.
For the black powder I have a stick of SPG which I use to lube my bullets for the Deerstalker. Will also use it for the BP .303 loads.

For nitro, I want to cook up Felix lube and add blue crayon. Blue lube looks cool.

[Sloffie]

:drinks:Collecting my Lee Metford tomorrow!!!!

[Sloffie]

I received my Lee Metford today for which I want to cast and develop a "holy black" load.

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa65/Mr_schark/Magazine%20Lee%20Enfield%20MKII/LeeMetford101.jpg

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa65/Mr_schark/Magazine%20Lee%20Enfield%20MKII/LeeMetfordCloseUp.jpg

Just thought I would share some pics with you. :mrgreen: