Just picked up an 1873....safe to shoot?

[Bigbuckeye]

Guys,

I just picked up an 1873 in 44-40 that was manufactured in 1884. I have thoroughly cleaned it, I even took it down and examined the parts and I don't see any excessive wear.

I realize that you can't diagnose over the Internet, but what kind of checks need to be made to determine if it is safe to shoot?

I ran several snap caps through it and it loads and cycles fine.

Thoughts?

I don't have what I would call a competent smith in my area..

[Bigbuckeye]

Is it safe to assume that commercial ammo would be a bad idea?

[bob208]

yes it is pre smokless powder. as a rule 1894 is thought to be safe for smokless even then only light loads.

now there will be someone that will say it ok to shoot smokless in it. but then if you do and it lets go will they buy you another? cover your med. bills? as you knoted this is the internet hard to hold some one responsible for bad info. so err on the safe side shoot black powder loads only.

[EDK]

I would try to find COWBOY LOADS with black powder to use in this rifle BUT I'd do a lot of internet searches to find a gunsmith to check it out FIRST. You might go over to sassnet.com or one of the other Cowboy Action Shooting web sites and post your concerns. Mike Venturino mentions his friend at Bozeman Trail Arms, IIRC, who works on similar items.

Early 1873 WINCHESTERS allegedly had iron frames, rather than steel. There was a HORROR STORY in Mike Venturino's SHOOTING LEVER GUNS OF THE OLD WEST about a defective REPLICA 1873 putting the firing pin through the shooter's eye. You might want to get a copy of the book...it has a list of gunsmiths in the appendix.

BE CAREFUL!

:redneck::cbpour::guntootsmiley:

[shrapnel]

I have several antique rifles in Winchester, 1892 and 1873, Marlin 1889 and 1894, Colt Lightning in 38-40 and 44-40, Burgess 44-40, Whitney Kennedy 44-40 and I shoot Trail Boss powder in all of them. The 38-40 is 5.5 grains, the 44-40 is 6 grains.

If the gun is in good enought shape to shoot, these loads will work real well and no mess like black powder...

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee202/bridgershooters/108_0946.jpg

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee202/bridgershooters/107_0264.jpg

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee202/bridgershooters/100_4325.jpg

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee202/bridgershooters/100_0527.jpg

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee202/bridgershooters/100_2231.jpg

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee202/bridgershooters/115_2130.jpg

[Bigbuckeye]

Here are some pics by the way..

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f398/mgriffin76/18735.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f398/mgriffin76/18734.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f398/mgriffin76/18732.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f398/mgriffin76/1873.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f398/mgriffin76/18736.jpg

[Bigbuckeye]

I just ordered a box of Goex Black Dawge reduced recoil ammo....Can't wait to shoot this thing!

[rollmyown]

Thanks Bigbuckeye and schrapnel for the great pics.

[KirkD]

I've been shooting a variety of original Model 1873's, most of them very well used, and have rebuilt a real beater. Personally, I would not use black powder in an original Model '73 if it has any pitting or roughness in the bore, which is most of them. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to clean out the bottom of all those pits. I use nothing but smokeless powder in my old guns. Black powder is for modern rifles with smooth shiny bores. Standard factory smokeless ammo will be perfectly safe in your original rifles. The factory bullet diameter will probably be a little small, but if the bullets are jacketed, you should still get decent accuracy. I use cast bullets with a gas check. Currently, I'm shooting an original '73 made in 1889.

I can't speak for the modern repros when it comes to that freak accident where a firing pin come out the back. I've never heard of that happening in an original. To happen in an original, at least two things would need to happen at the same time. First, the forward toggle pin would have to break, allowing the retractor (flat, oval-shaped piece of metal that fits into a recess on the side of the firing pin) to fall out of the firing pin groove. Second, the firing pin would have to pierce the primer to allow high pressure gases to shoot out of the primer hole and push the firing pin back. If you can lever back the firing pin and cock the hammer, then you know the retractor is doing its job. Look at your fired primers. If the dent is filled with black soot and there seems to be a pinhole in the bottom, lighten up your hammer spring a bit by adjusting the screw. I don't know how a toggle pin would break, other than trying to jam an oversize cartridge into the chamber. Let's say a person reloads and installs a .431 sized bullet in a cartridge, but the chamber only allows a cartridge with a .429 sized bullet. A fellow might really have to haul on that lever to get it to jam the cartridge in. Maybe after enough of that, the forward toggle pin might break. Solution, don't use the lever to jam oversized cartridges into the chamber.

You have a nice looking '73 that doesn't seem to have much wear. Enjoy it. I use a smokeless load in mine (18.5 grains of 5744 under a 200 grain cast bullet sized to .431) that has a peak pressure that is lower than FFFg. I get around 1,275 fps with my load.

[John Taylor]

Some of the common problems are, loose toggle links, bolt dropping down do to ware in the frame, little tit on the bottom of the bolt face broke off, dust cover does not move with bolt when opening, firing pin not pushing hammer back far enough to cock.
Check the bore first, I see a lot of them with almost no rifling and lots of pits.
Check head space. New toggle links are available from buffalo arms.
Timing is another problem if there have been any parts changed.

[rbertalotto]

I also recently bought a 1873 that was built in 1884.

I wrote a whole story about my rebuild here:

www.rvbprecision.com

Mine is in 38-40 and I love shooting black powder through it. With the extra thin brass in the neck of the 38-40 and 44-40, there is zero mess in the action. The brass seals the chamber perfectly. Nothing like shooting 45LC or 38 Special where the blow back gets into everything.

I also shoot 5.5 g of Trail Boss under the 180g RCBS bullet with phenomenal accuracy. I worry not about the rifle coming apart. Only the very early 1873 had iron frames. I'm fairly certain by 1884 the steel frame was the only type used.

Have fun........nothing like shooting these old guns to bring a smile to your face!

[Bigbuckeye]

Rifling is actually pretty strong. There is definitely pitting from black powder, but I am shocked at how good everything looks. The internals don't appear to have any slop... The only thing I have noticed is that someone filed the hammer and it has a relatively light trigger pull.

[Bigbuckeye]

I also recently bought a 1873 that was built in 1884.

I wrote a whole story about my rebuild here:

www.rvbprecision.com

Mine is in 38-40 and I love shooting black powder through it. With the extra thin brass in the neck of the 38-40 and 44-40, there is zero mess in the action. The brass seals the chamber perfectly. Nothing like shooting 45LC or 38 Special where the blow back gets into everything.

I also shoot 5.5 g of Trail Boss under the 180g RCBS bullet with phenomenal accuracy. I worry not about the rifle coming apart. Only the very early 1873 had iron frames. I'm fairly certain by 1884 the steel frame was the only type used.

Have fun........nothing like shooting these old guns to bring a smile to your face!

That was a great read!

[Chill Wills]

Rifling is actually pretty strong. There is definitely pitting from black powder, but I am shocked at how good everything looks.

The old Black powder always gets the blame. likely not.
The old loads, smokeless and black gunpowder both, were ALL loaded with corrosive priming. Most of what gets blamed on the smokey powder was really caused by the priming compound of the day. That and the muzzles got wallowed out from bad cleaning from the front. Many an old lever Winchesters' muzzle is funneled out due to the cleaning rod.

When you look at an old rifle to buy and the bore/rifling looks good, remember to check the 1/2 inch from the crown back. Less we remember to do this we tend to just see the middle section that looks good.

[w30wcf]

I just ordered a box of Goex Black Dawge reduced recoil ammo....Can't wait to shoot this thing!

That ammo will possibly "foul out" (hard ring of fouling beginning at the muzzle and extending back into the barrel a few inches) in 10 rounds or so. They use Goex powder with a minimally lubed bullet.

Thankfully, Black Dawge is working on much better b.p. ammo using Swiss black powder. I don't know when it will be available.

More info here.... (my handle there is w44wcf)
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=41631.0

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,40683.0.html

Currently loaded 44-40 smokeless ammo is loaded to work aok in the 1873 Winchester. I have a '73 made in 1882 and it has digested a few thousand smokeless rounds and many black powder ctgs.

Back in the late 1800's, Winchester began offering smokeless ammunition for the 1873 Winchester. It said so right on the boxes.

w30wcf

[Bigbuckeye]

I put 5 rounds through it today without incident... This was never intended to be a shooter so the main goal was really a function check. Loaded and extracted perfectly.

I was shooting other rifles so my target was set up at 100 yards. Didn't even hit the paper.

This was my first timer EVER with a BPC......it was incredible.

[ajjohns]

SHotgun butt stock to boot! Nice. Is that a 26" barrel? Keep on it, you'll enjoy it!