Didn't know, but suspected

[GOPHER SLAYER]

A young friend of mine is a nurse in the emergancy room of a local hospital. He said something yesterday that I thought I would pass along. He said that he couldn't help but notice that all the gunshot victoms they work on are shot with a 9mm. The people shot wit .45s go straight to the morge. No surprise there.

[hiram1]

it would do that to the dinks to

[MtGun44]

Sounds about right. There may be some connection that frequently .45 ACP users are
more serious about it all and have spent a good bit of time and effort training up and
they may be making better hits, too.

Bill

[Artful]

I observed in my youth, a few vet's with scars from 9mm german burp guns.

Never met any German immigrants with scars from the 45 thompson.

[9.3X62AL]

The sample population I draw my conclusions from isn't large or vast, but significant. I haven't any argument with Glen's friend's assertion.

Taking the question one step further.......my old shop mauthorizes well over 250 variants of service sidearm in calibers 38 Special--357 Magnum--9mm--40 S&W--45 ACP. All of the autopistols and most of the revolvers are personally purchased by the deputies that carry them. The 40 S&W is the overwhelming favorite--the 45 ACP comes in 2nd--9mm, 38 Special, and 357 Mag are largely nrelegated to off-duty and back-up roles.

Size matters.

[cheese1566]

Years ago my local department was issued 9mm Glocks when switching from wheelguns.
That lasted under two years when they found trouble putting down injured whitetails in car/deer accidents in town.
They made the switch to 40's and that improved.
Local deputies carry 45's and hardly have issues putting deer down.

[mpbarry1]

I think mtgun44 has a point. People who own 45's tend to shoot and reload. Gang bangers don't. Not that i dont think the bigger is better thing isnt true. Just sayin...

[geargnasher]

No matter how hard you try to get around the fact, physics will win.

Gear

[waksupi]

A buddy and I were arguing the merits of 9mm vs. .45. He is a 9mm supporter. He has pulled up his shirt and showed me where he took rounds from a 9mm machine pistol in North Ireland. I pointed out to him if it would have been a .45, he wouldn't be showing me the scars!

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

As an attorney friend said "it could be argued either way." That said:

1. a 9mm may expand, but a .45 ain't gonna shrink.

2. the military prefers serious wounds to outright killed. The wounded soldier has to be transported back to the rear for medical attention; taking one or two of his fellow soldiers out of action as well as the shootee. This, of course, only applies to civilized combatants who value human life.

3. Police are primarily concerned with taking the perp out of the scenario. Dead or incapacitated, mox nix.


Me, I'm insecure; I pack a Para-Ordnance, your basic 15-shot .45acp, full of alternating Hydra-Shoks and ball ammunition.

Rich

[Piedmont]

A young friend of mine is a nurse in the emergancy room of a local hospital. He said something yesterday that I thought I would pass along. He said that he couldn't help but notice that all the gunshot victoms they work on are shot with a 9mm. The people shot wit .45s go straight to the morge. No surprise there.

So how would your young nurse know who goes to the morgue? Does he work there too? My BS meter is blaring.

Maybe there are lots more people being shot by 9mm and that is why they see them in the ER.

[MBTcustom]

the military prefers serious wounds to outright killed. The wounded soldier has to be transported back to the rear for medical attention; taking one or two of his fellow soldiers out of action as well as the shootee. This, of course, only applies to civilized combatants who value human life.
I've heard this several times and it always gets my dander up.
First of all, that whole argument sounds like it came from a war dept. budgeting clerk.
Second, we are the only nation in the world who are equipped and civil enough to give a rats butt about letting ourselves get hammered for collecting the wounded.
The only reason the military ever went to such an ineffective, puny round was to save money. They weren't thinking about terrorizing our enemies with either the 5.56 or the 9mm, it was all about saving money at the expense of good solders lives.
We went from 30-06 and 45acp to 9mm and 5.56. The 5.56 is a varmint round, suitable for ground-hogs and the 9mm is underpowered for taking out a big dog. Good one uncle sam.
For the record, I carry 45acp.

[DIRT Farmer]

Several factors, but cornor gets called for 45, EMS for 9mm. Bigger holes leak more.

[JeffinNZ]

I DON'T KNOW BUT I'VE BEEN TOLD.

[I don't know but I've been told]

A .45 LEAVES 'EM STONE COLD.

[44fanatic]

As I am a supporter of 9mm for SD situations (certainly have nothing against the 40 or 45), is there any information from the friend as to what type of rounds are being used...JHPs compared to FMJs? FMJs are notorious for leaving a person standing.

[square butte]

For those few of you who may not have heard the story - A young reporter was interviewing a grizzled old Texas Ranger in perhaps the early 80's. He said to the Ranger - Say Ranger I notice you carry a .45 auto. Why is that? The Ranger responded - "Because they don't make a .46"

[dmize]

Years ago my local department was issued 9mm Glocks when switching from wheelguns.
That lasted under two years when they found trouble putting down injured whitetails in car/deer accidents in town.
They made the switch to 40's and that improved.
Local deputies carry 45's and hardly have issues putting deer down.

And THAT is exactly why my 5906 got traded for a P90.
No "I heard this or that" I SAW my carry round,a HydroShok ricochet off a 150lb does head from a distance of about 5 feet.

[Rick Hodges]

There may be merit in MtGun44's theory that .45 users make better hits.

It has been my understanding from Col. Cooper's writing and my observations over a 25+ yrs career in Detroit area law enforcement that there is little or no difference in the lethality of a solid torso hit with a .38/9mm vs. the .45 ACP. The big difference is in the ability to immediately incapacitate with the advantage going to the .45.

The .45 shuts people down in a hurry.

[bruce drake]

My first pistol in the Marines was a 1911 and I currently carry a M9 Beretta with the Army.

Between the two, I'll take the 45ACP but I work with what they assign me...

Its easier to teach a recruit to shoot a 9mm accurately and it keeps our ammunition in common with our NATO allies.

The earlier comments regarding wounding the enemy is a Clausewitzian formula in that a surviving but wounded enemy is a drain on the resources of the country you are fighting. If you kill the enemy outright, the enemy doesn't have to try to recover thier soldier and try to bring him back to health over a period of time. This is a drain on that nation's war economy. Money and material spent on bandages and rehabilitation care is money not spent on weapon development or ammunition for the fight.

Not exactly a 100% analogy to today's modern fight where the terrorists are already considered as self-guided bombs by the Insurgent leadership when they go out on a mission against us. They (the terrorists) know they can recruit additional "mayrtrs" from the madrassas and slums of the world.

As I stated before, I'll take a 45ACP anyday. It drops them in their tracks almost all the time and it does a lot more damage even as a FMJ. There is no crawling away to fight another day with a well placed 45 caliber hole in the terrorist.

to remind people of an old tombstone epitaph from an old western town:

"here lies Lester Moore
4 slugs from a 44
No Les, No More..."

[9.3X62AL]

There hasn't been a "9mm/38 Spec vs. 45 ACP" article in gunrags for years. This looks like an 80s Revival to me. :)

357 Mag and 40 S&W get the call for carry here. 45 ACP/Colt Series 80 Gold Cup has almost convinced me that a target pistol can be as reliable as a looser service model 1911-series, just need a better holster for it.

[Old Ironsights]

...
3. Police are primarily concerned with taking the perp out of the scenario. Dead or incapacitated, mox nix...

Thread drift alert...

Pet Peeve: "Mox Nix" should be "Macht Nichts" i.e. "Matters Not".

"Mox Nix" has no meaning and is an irritant to we Grammar Nazis... :kidding:

Edit: Oh, and I forgot, "*****" actually comes from "furchtbar" = terrible (the opposite of wunderbar)

The acronym is a later post-war Americanization.

[Char-Gar]

The only reason the military ever went to such an ineffective, puny round was to save money.

The United States military went to the 9mm, because they have an obligation to adopt NATO standard caliber when their existing supplies of the 1911A1s went belly up. It was not about saving money.


This topic has been done to death over the past few decades and there will never be consensus or agreement.

I hold the position that where you hit them is more important than what you hit them with. Decades ago, Elmer Keith told us to use the biggest handgun we could shoot accuately and effectively. He was right then and is still right today. A 9mm round in the carburator, is better than a 45 around the edges. If you then put the 45 in the carb, that is the best of all possible outcomes.

I have both 9mms and 45s and see a place for them both in my world.

[Char-Gar]

Thread drift alert...

Pet Peeve: "Mox Nix" should be "Macht Nichts" i.e. "Matters Not".

"Mox Nix" has no meaning and is an irritant to we Grammar Nazis... :kidding:

Language does matter, no matter which it is. I am glad we have a German grammer Nazi around. I am a Spanish grammer Nazi.

[john hayslip]

When I was a Marine Officer and had to qualify with the 45 I'd go through the armory and find one with a good trigger. There were very few of them and I found that it was almost impossible to shoot good groups if the trigger were over 6 pounds and 9-12 was about the norm on most of the armory guns. I suspect that is a lot of the problem shooters of my era had with the 45. If I were carrying on duty now I'd want a 45 though if the Hornaday Critical Defense were available to me in 9 I might reconsider if I couldn't find the equivalent in 45. Today I carry a 380 cause I can hide it in civilian clothes easier. Here mode of concealment trumps - and I hope I never have to use it

[Moonie]

When I was a Marine Officer and had to qualify with the 45 I'd go through the armory and find one with a good trigger. There were very few of them and I found that it was almost impossible to shoot good groups if the trigger were over 6 pounds and 9-12 was about the norm on most of the armory guns. I suspect that is a lot of the problem shooters of my era had with the 45. If I were carrying on duty now I'd want a 45 though if the Hornaday Critical Defense were available to me in 9 I might reconsider if I couldn't find the equivalent in 45. Today I carry a 380 cause I can hide it in civilian clothes easier. Here mode of concealment trumps - and I hope I never have to use it

I conceal a full size 1911 well enough that my mother didn't notice I had it on, she sat right beside me, on my gun side, at the restaurant and noticed it when she hugged me good by as she touched it. I'm not that big a guy, 5'11" 215lbs, sure some extra pounds but not huge. I am planning on building an aluminum framed CCO soon though.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

To all the nit pickers and nay sayers. When I wrote the thread about my young friend's remarks concerning people shot by someone using a 9mm hand gun. No, he does not also work at the morge. He simply observed that he thought people were probably shot at least occaionally with something larger than a 9mm and that the morge was the logical place to take them if they had exspired and not hauled to the local landfill. He was saying that he had never treated one shot with a.45 caliber pistol or even seen one for that matter. Now for the nail in the coffin. No pun intended. Without going into the unpleasant details of resent history. Can someone tell us of a person who not only survived a close shot to the head with a .45 but lived to talk about it.

[GT27]

Both will kill you just as dead!The 45 just doesn't need to be as strategically placed as the 9mm to do it! GT27

[Reload3006]

I carry an ACP , 9mm,357 and 44mag. I love my M&P in 45acp. I like the way it shoots and I know that if i have to use it it has stopping power as well as killing power. you can kill a person with a 22lr. Still dead or alive the 45 has enough thump to put a man down now fight over , same with a 44mag. I would defend myself with my buckmark if I had to but I sure don't want to.

[Blacksmith]

If you want to know about stopping power ask the FBI in Miami.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm
Or
http://www.webcitation.org/5gcuig4Jd

If other factors are equal bigger, deeper, more frequent holes incapacitate quicker.

[9.3X62AL]

None of the various formulae that have been ginned up to predict terminal performance and effects are entirely reliable. All of them depend upon some element to the ballistic equation being squared to arrive at a supposed result--bullet diameter, bullet weight, or bullet velocity. I think it is noteworthy that the only formula that depends upon squaring the diameter (Hatcher IRSP) uses a value that is actually squared in reality. That Gen. Hatcher's theory seems to largely follow street-level realities makes his assertions difficult to dismiss out of hand.

Fackler = "F-word".

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Mass x velocity = lots of energy. Works for me.

[MBTcustom]

I once saw a side by side comparison in ballistic gelatin of the 45ACP, 40S&W and 9mm cartridges. All were loaded at max charge for caliber, and all three were loaded with bullets of the same style from the same manufacturer. The 45ACP was the clear winner by virtue of the energy plume left in the gel. The 40-S&W was close behind it but didn't have quite the shock and awe of the 45ACP. The 9MM was pitiful by comparison and clearly showed a dramatic lack of git-er-done compared to the others.
The 9MM is certainly capable of stopping a threat, but the margin for error is much greater.
I guess they make up for it by giving you 15 rounds in a clip huh?:kidding:
P.S. max inertia = lots of energy. Ie, heavier + faster= got-er-did.

[9.3X62AL]

Glen, you scalawag--you knew I'd take the bait.

Time to start the popcorn.

[geargnasher]

Char-Gar, I'm an English Spelling Nazi. Grammar has no "E". :bigsmyl2:

Don't feel bad, I've been busted for that here, too!

Gear

[Stephen Cohen]

For those few of you who may not have heard the story - A young reporter was interviewing a grizzled old Texas Ranger in perhaps the early 80's. He said to the Ranger - Say Ranger I notice you carry a .45 auto. Why is that? The Ranger responded - "Because they don't make a .46"

Oh my god I never heard that before. I think i just wet myself.

[MtGun44]

Well then you'll like the other 'grizzled old Ranger' story about a 1911.

The Grizzled Old Ranger was wearing his best Barbeque Gun 1911 locked and cocked,
and in his best uniform and finest Stetson at the retirement barbeque. A little old lady
came over and , pointing at his 1911, said "Sir, do you know your gun is cocked?"

"Yes, Ma'am"

"But, Isn't that DANGEROUS?"

"Yes, Ma'am. It's a gun."

"Well, are you expecting trouble?"

"No, Ma'am. If I was expecting trouble, I'd have brought my Winchester."

"Oh, dear!"

:bigsmyl2:

Bill

[Lefthandshooter]

I have a M&P in 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45ACP. I carry all three, but mostly the 40.

I shoot best with it, by just a little though.

[Stephen Cohen]

I remember Col Cooper always said the 1911 in 45 was the yardstick all pistols were judged by. It took me some time to come to same conclusion, but alas all 3 of my 1911s were destroyed in the forced confiscation. they even had the hide to ask if I wished to watch their destruction, I replied no, nore do I would not want to watch the rape of my wife or daughter, I think the similarity went over their heads.

[Jim]

Well then you'll like the other 'grizzled old Ranger' story about a 1911.

The Grizzled Old Ranger was wearing his best Barbeque Gun 1911 locked and cocked,
and in his best uniform and finest Stetson at the retirement barbeque. A little old lady
came over and , pointing at his 1911, said "Sir, do you know your gun is cocked?"

"Yes, Ma'am"

"But, Isn't that DANGEROUS?"

"Yes, Ma'am. It's a gun."

"Well, are you expecting trouble?"

"No, Ma'am. If I was expecting trouble, I'd have brought my Winchester."

"Oh, dear!"

:bigsmyl2:

Bill

I LIKE it!

[Lefthandshooter]

I don't see the big deal over 1911's. Most are not left handed friendly, and the reason I never really look at them.

Of course, I've never owned one, and the only one I've ever shot was 3 rounds through a Desert Eagle in .50 cal, and I'm not certain that counts.

Even thought I carry a semi-auto, I still prefer my revolvers.

[dpaultx]

I don't see the big deal over 1911's. Most are not left handed friendly, and the reason I never really look at them.

Of course, I've never owned one, and the only one I've ever shot was 3 rounds through a Desert Eagle in .50 cal, and I'm not certain that counts.

Even thought I carry a semi-auto, I still prefer my revolvers.

Soooooooooo . . .

How are those left handed revolvers working out for you? :bigsmyl2:

Just curious . . . Doug

[Rick Hodges]

I don't see the big deal over 1911's. Most are not left handed friendly, and the reason I never really look at them.

Of course, I've never owned one, and the only one I've ever shot was 3 rounds through a Desert Eagle in .50 cal, and I'm not certain that counts.

Even thought I carry a semi-auto, I still prefer my revolvers.

I too am left handed. I managed to carry a 1911 for serious social purposes for a number of years without modification. I found that Armand Swenson had the answers that I was looking for...an ambidextrous safety and a set of high profile fixed sights. Those changes on a Series 70 Gov't Model 1911 along with a mild trigger job made for a formidable weapon in my hand. Unfortunately the "powers that were" decided that single action autos would not be tolerated on my department. A pity.

My quest for a large caliber "stopping" sidearm began in earnest after a bad experience with .357 Mag revolvers. Anecdotal evidence to be sure, but absolutely convincing to me.

[Beau Cassidy]

I worked for years in a trauma ER in Jackson, Mississippi. It was sort of like combat at times. I rally can't agree with mortality being directly related to caliber. I have personally seen a .45 ball round stop in a knee and another in a foot. The larger calibers did not necessarily do more damage. As far as mortality.... well I just ain't too sure about the larger calibers being on top. If you want to make sure something/body get very dead, break out a shotgun.

What I can tell you is .40 and .357 mag. (this was pre-.357 sig days) did a LOT of damage. I call those rounds "dynamic" on their soft-tissue effect. My guess is due to hydrostatic shock. If I had to be shot with anything it would definitely not be with either of those 2 calibers!

[Thumbcocker]

Soooo which is better .308 or .30-06?:mrgreen:

[mrb7]

Soooo which is better .308 or .30-06?:mrgreen:

The one you have close.

[Lefthandshooter]

Soooooooooo . . .

How are those left handed revolvers working out for you? :bigsmyl2:

Just curious . . . Doug

They work just fine. Six (or 5 in the 642) are enough in my opinion.

I only carry the 642 revolver. The others are too big, with maybe the exception of the 625 5" barrel in .45ACP, but try to find a decent lefty holster that works WITHOUT trying it out first. Dealers do not carry them in stores and most on-line sales are a pain to return.

[Lefthandshooter]

I too am left handed. I managed to carry a 1911 for serious social purposes for a number of years without modification. I found that Armand Swenson had the answers that I was looking for...an ambidextrous safety and a set of high profile fixed sights. Those changes on a Series 70 Gov't Model 1911 along with a mild trigger job made for a formidable weapon in my hand.

This has peaked my interest!

Maybe I just need to shoot a 1911 some, maybe look more serious, and all, but no extra $$ these days.

Also have the wonderings how hard would it be to adjust to having a hammer on a semi auto when my M&P's do not.

[a.squibload]

Like somebody said, the first digit should be a "4",
unless you have the option of three digits.

The owner of "Smartcarry" holster company shows a pic
of himself concealing a govt. model 45, he's slender but
don't know how tall. I had an abdominal exam (kidney
stones) while wearing one with my 40 in it, went
undetected.

"...but a 45 won't shrink." Love it!

"I carry a 9mm, 357, 44 mag, and 45..."
All at the same time???

[a.squibload]

And yes a 12ga works great but they're so hard to conceal.

[Lefthandshooter]

The owner of "Smartcarry" holster company shows a pic
of himself concealing a govt. model 45, he's slender but
don't know how tall. I had an abdominal exam (kidney
stones) while wearing one with my 40 in it, went
undetected.

Got a link for those of us who don't like to google?
:killingpc

[Artful]

http://www.smartcarry.com/

[Lefthandshooter]

Thanks! Have it bookmarked - will look later. Hope they have for other pistols than 1911's.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Deputy Al, DA DEBIL MADE ME DO IT!

[Gibson]

Re: Top end hard cast rounds, the .40 S&W CANNOT compete with the .357 magnum, in energy and momentum, no way. [Admittedly the diameter, in my book, DOES matter and the .40 is ahead in that department, so I am adding a bit.]

BB at ~1400 fps from a 5" barrel and HSM alleges 1498 fps, both using 180 grain bullets. The former employs LFN-GC and the latter a RNFP-GC.

I have chrono'ed BB rounds and they are legit in my book.

I am still a big hole guy with a handgun round. Give me .45 in this discussion. As a matter of fact, I like big bore in any firearm. But I do not conceal carry.

[9.3X62AL]

Left Hand Shooter......

If a Desert Eagle is the only "1911" you've fired, I'm afraid you have yet to try a genuine 1911A1.

[Lefthandshooter]

I did used to own a Crossman bb gun that looked just like a 1911. Does that count?

I shot my brother in the chest with it once to win a bet that I wouldn't shoot him. It left him with a red welt was all - didn't even break the skin.

[bruce drake]

you practice long enough, shooting a 1911 left-handed is not an issue.

I'm left-handed and I've never fired below Expert with a 1911 pistol in the Marines or the Army which includes magazine changes under timed conditions as well.

Bruce

[Old Ironsights]

Re: Top end hard cast rounds, the .40 S&W CANNOT compete with the .357 magnum, in energy and momentum, no way. [Admittedly the diameter, in my book, DOES matter and the .40 is ahead in that department, so I am adding a bit.]

BB at ~1400 fps from a 5" barrel and HSM alleges 1498 fps, both using 180 grain bullets. The former employs LFN-GC and the latter a RNFP-GC.

I have chrono'ed BB rounds and they are legit in my book.

I am still a big hole guy with a handgun round. Give me .45 in this discussion. As a matter of fact, I like big bore in any firearm. But I do not conceal carry.

The BB 180gr WFNGC cranks 1800 from a rifle... an 1200 from my 2.5" SP101

[Gibson]

The BB 180gr WFNGC cranks 1800 from a rifle... an 1200 from my 2.5" SP101

I have NEVER had BB ammo that did check not out. 5" AVE VEL 1400, check. On the other hand, I have never checked the HSM round. Never owned any.

[mstarling]

I've always preferred to carry the .45 ACP. My 9mm HK P7M8 is carried only when concealment is difficult.

My youngest son grew up shooting IPSC. Had a very nice 1911 he and I built as well as a P226 that he learned to use well.

Went career military. After two tours in bad places he changed his carry gun to one of the .45 ACPs he now owns. Seems he has seen enough damage done by the 9mm and by the .45 ACP to develop a strong opinion.

[Old Ironsights]

Language does matter, no matter which it is. I am glad we have a German grammer Nazi around. I am a Spanish grammer Nazi.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/grammar-nazi-2.jpg

:bigsmyl2:

[Jammer Six]

2. the military prefers serious wounds to outright killed.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Where do you people get this stuff? It's great!

[waksupi]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Where do you people get this stuff? It's great!

I had first seen it in a book written during World War 1 by a Canadian officer. I believe it was "Ambulances to the Front".
He said that it was reckoned it took nine men to care for a wounded soldier. Things may have changed over the years.

[Jammer Six]

I had no idea this myth had been around that long!

No wonder people put it forward as truth...

[geargnasher]

I don't see the big deal over 1911's. Most are not left handed friendly, and the reason I never really look at them.

Of course, I've never owned one, and the only one I've ever shot was 3 rounds through a Desert Eagle in .50 cal, and I'm not certain that counts.

Even thought I carry a semi-auto, I still prefer my revolvers.

I'm not going to argue over your revolver preference, nothing wrong with that at all. However, saying that a 1911 isn't "left handed friendly" is pure hogwash. In fact, a 1911 is one of the most natural left-handed automatics ever made, with only one flaw. The flaw is the thumb safety, and any number of aftermarket conversions eliminate that issue in short order.

So what's the issue? The magazine release button? Use the pad between the first and second joints of your left middle finger or the tip of your trigger finger to work it. It's more natural than using your right thumb because you don't have to break the firing grip to manipulate it. Slide release? Use your trigger finger. Again, you don't have to rotate your hand around the backstrap so your thumb can reach it like "right handed" people do, just snag it with your left trigger finger. If your finger isn't strong enough, get an extended slide release or pop the slide back with your weak-side hand to take the pressure off. You can see in the ejection port more easily if left-handed. Magazines are all ambidextrous, as is the trigger and hammer of course! Also, there's nothing in the way of your support hand thumb when shooting left-handed (like the slide release lever).

Just some things to consider about the platform.

For a totally, custom-built, made-to-order left-handed gun, there is of course the entire line of Colt's single-action revolvers and well over a hundred year's worth of excellent copies.

Gear

[462]

Though a lefty, I am right-eye dominate and, therefore, shoot right-handed. However, I do find that my Randall 1911 is easy to manipulate left-handed. Back in its day, Randall Firearms made a mirror-image, left-handed 1911.

When it comes to the single-action revolver, I've often wondered why right-handed shooters have continued to put up with its backward design, and awkward unloading and reloading procedures. Seems, that with modern computer aided designing and manufacturing capabilities, a mirror-image version could be easily and inexpensively produced. I suspect that it would sell quite well, even to traditionalists such as myself.

[bowfin]

If you want to know about stopping power ask the FBI in Miami.

Throughout their checkered history, the FBI have been notoriously bad in gunfights, whether using 9mm handguns, 12 gauge shotguns, or Thompson submachineguns.

Antecdotal evidence can often muddy the waters. That rat's @ss Al Zarqawi took hits from 2 500 pound smart bombs and still tried to get off the stretcher before he died. From this, a case could be made that the .45 ACP is superior to an air strike.

Me? bigger and faster beats smaller and slower. I would prefer a .357 carry gun, but right now I have a .41 Action Express I shoot better than any other gun I have, so that goes with me.

[9.3X62AL]

Me? bigger and faster beats smaller and slower.

Can I get a witness?

Fackler, the other F-word.

[a.squibload]

Made me think of this, it's an old one:

Pronounce "ghoti".

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
gh as in enough,
o as in women,
ti as in motion.

"Fish".

[Lefthandshooter]

GEEZ! Didn't know you 1911 folks were such touchy people!


Makes me think I'm not good enough (or rich enough) to own one of those pistols.