Boolit testing: ballistic gel

[soldierbilly1]

Anyone done much of this?
I just saw the latest installment of "Guns and Ammo" and they basically ran the new Hornady Critical Defense load (40 cal) using the FBI test protocols.

I am curious as I occaisonally toy with the idea of a poured Lead HP for my 38 spl, I understand this is better terminal ballistic wise, than a RN or a FP.

What say you's? Just curious.

billy boy

[44fanatic]

Ive looked into it a bit and that is about it. The ballistic gellatin is a bit on the expensive side for me and using a home brewed version seems a bit of a pain. Range is 50 miles away and dragging a cooler full of cold gelatin dosnt seem like to fun of an idea for me.

[MtGun44]

Very saturated phone books or bundled newspaperss will give you the exact same expansion
as ballistic gel and very close to half the penetration distance.

As to casting your own HP for .38, how about this?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=161&pictureid=3952

Bill

[soldierbilly1]

Bill:
that's what I'M talking about!

OK, I am completely new to hollow pointing. How did you do this?

billy boy

[MtGun44]

I sent a 2 cavity Lyman 358429 mold to Erik at Hollowpoint Services and had him
convert it to Cramer style automatic HP pins. Here is a pic. Note that I have two
sets of pins, cup point for .357 mag velocities, and deep HP for .38 Spl velocities.
I have them mixed in this pic, you can do it like this or both of the same style.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=161&pictureid=1128

Check out his web site. http://www.hollowpointmold.com/inset-bar-conversions/

He is doing more (only?) insert bar conversions now, which are slightly different from the
Cramer conversion.

Bill

[CNal]

I make a 165 grain .40 cal HP made by Erik as well. I have a very particular blend of alloys I use that gives PERFECT expansion at around 950 fps with almost 330 foot pounds and a power factor of 157. In the last few weeks I've been mimicking the FBI's ballistic gel test through particular barriers they specify in a kit I built. I've made it relatively cost efficient for myself to have definitive results just as the commercial bullet companies do. I want to start marketing this kit but I'm not sure if the investment to make a few and sell them is even something people would be interested in. I have a few ideas: Make the kit to be sold and used by the purchaser, use my own kit and meet people at the range to test bullets themselves with my equipment, or allow people to ship me their bullets to be tested and I will video record it and send back the results and specs. I am an avid caster and reloader and I'm going back to school to become an RN so I'm hoping to make a few bucks to cover some of the $42,000 bill. Do you think anyone would even care to have their bullets tested at the degree a manufacturer would? To ensure their bullets live up to the expected standard in which they use them for?

[35remington]

CNal, that's closer to 330 ft lbs......not exactly "close to" 400. PF is 157. Not quite major.

[Blackwater]

I've done a fair amount of testing in the past, but it's usually been in wetted newsprint, with some done in clay and wet sand. The clay's kind'a neat in that if the water mix is just right, it can hold its shape at maximum expansion. The newsprint always seemed to allow deeper penetration than actual flesh and blood and sinew and gristle, but gave a fair idea of how the bullet in question would do on game. Often, I'd place some glossy magazines in front to try to emulate bone, or at least something in that direction, and it did make a difference, but not as much as bone. The sand seemed to produce nice, photogenic mushrooms that a bullet company would probably like to put in an ad, but it was just too homogeneous to show more than what might happen in a "perfect world" scenario, which never happens in game animals. It clearly taught me that for HP's, the addition of tin to the alloy (WW) really helped the bullets hold together much better, and sometimes penetrate a bit deeper. Velocity really matters as well. You just can't shoot the same alloy at 800 fps. that you do at 1200+, or at least not without consequences. Balancing alloy and speed can produce some very nicely performing bullets, but it takes some testing to prove them, and some game shooting as well before you really KNOW. Just another good excuse to shoot some more.

[CNal]

Thank you for the correct FP's and PF. I stand corrected. Aside from what kind of boolits I make. I was hoping to gain an insight to see if testing in gel at a reasonable cost is even something people would have a need or want to do?


PS. as of this year, isn't the minimum PF 125 with a boolit > 165 grains considered major?

[35remington]

No. That's minor power floor. Major power floor is 160.

[charlie b]

When we did HP testing 20 years ago we started with wet phone books. They have to be soaking wet, not just damp. We tried all kinds of readily available gels and nothing was quite right. We did the final tests with 'good' stuff, 3lb rump roast. Expensive, but gave realistic results.

The key for us was clothing placed in front of the medium. Leather jacket, denim jacket (with and without wool blanket type lining), fleece (thin and thick and double layer thick) and fake down. Typically the leather, denim and wool 'fill' the cavity and you end up with a solid nose slug.

[CHeatermk3]

find an outfit that sells pottery making supplies and get a block of clay that's about 8x8x15 inches. holds max expansion and is re-usable as long as you don' let it dry out; simply store it in the plastic bag it comes in. 10 or so pounds IIRC.

[BCB]

I also use saturated books, catalogs, etc. that I tape together with duct tape…

I use the Forster Case Trimmer to hollow point various boolits—a bit labor intensive, but it is pretty effective…

I’ve included a few pics of handgun as well as a 30-30 (311041) boolits that have been hollow pointed...

Good-luck…BCB

[CNal]

Wow BCB. great expansion pictures. Well done!

[44man]

Nothing equates to hunting. People OK, but animals do not follow rules. My best boolits for deer do 37" in wet newsprint because it also leaves energy at the right place in deer. Animal lungs contain a lot of air but gel has none.
Saddest thing ever is a mag full of nines in a person that survives.

[charlie b]

People don't follow the rules either :) Thick leather jackets with wool blanket liners. Denim shirts. All plug up many hollow points. Heck, HydraShok bullets would plug up with simple cotton shirt material.

If you want to test expansion on game, then get a hide with hair and hang it in front of the gelatin.

Bare gelatin is almost meaningless by itself (applies to most expansion medium).

[Outpost75]

Stand neighbor's cow in front of the gel block, shoot through the cow with your .44-40 and then catch the expanded bullet in the gel block. Then throw a block party to BBQ the cow.

[44man]

Stand neighbor's cow in front of the gel block, shoot through the cow with your .44-40 and then catch the expanded bullet in the gel block. Then throw a block party to BBQ the cow.
I like that one!
Gel gives kind of a false reading, notice the path is small and gets larger as the boolit expands.
How much the block jumps around when hit counts more and if you blow it off the table it shows better results.

[fredj338]

All my magnum rev only see LHP, 45-70 too.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/DSC_0041.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/DSC_0041.jpg.html) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/452-268-1K.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/452-268-1K.jpg.html) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/fredj338/media/44-272.jpg.html)

[Tom_in_AZ]

I sent a 2 cavity Lyman 358429 mold to Erik at Hollowpoint Services and had him
convert it to Cramer style automatic HP pins. Here is a pic. Note that I have two
sets of pins, cup point for .357 mag velocities, and deep HP for .38 Spl velocities.
I have them mixed in this pic, you can do it like this or both of the same style.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=161&pictureid=1128

Check out his web site. http://www.hollowpointmold.com/inset-bar-conversions/

He is doing more (only?) insert bar conversions now, which are slightly different from the
Cramer conversion.

Bill

Very nice mold/bullets! From your pic above, it looks like they mushroom very well!

[MtGun44]

Hard to find anything to complain about with that setup. Works great, casts
great, accurate, too.

Bill

[curioushooter]

Very saturated phone books or bundled newspaperss will give you the exact same expansion
as ballistic gel and very close to half the penetration distance.

Says who? What evidence? Oh, yea...there is none because wet newsprint is not a valid test media. And who has newspapers anymore? $30 of unflavored gelatin, a plastic file box, a 17 caliber bb rifle, and a stock pot is all you need to cook up the only valid testing medium--properly calibrated gelatin.
A ratio of 9:2 water to gelatin powder by volume yields a consistent 3-3.5 inch penetration by a 17 cal steel bb at 580-590 fps. Put denim and hide in front of it as desired. I've done some CB testing so far. Under 1400 I've not observed any expansion with solids with the alloy I am using. From 800-1300 FPS expansion happens with hollowpoints. There is a balance to strike between cavity size, alloy hardness, sectional density, and velocity. You can go too fast pretty easily. The only way to know is to validly test it. No opinion can tell you if it will work. If the testing is carried out using an invalid media or without calibration it cannot be trusted. Animals are made of hydrated protein, the same as gelatin. It is necessary to as closely match the penetration qualities of gel to the animal, this is calibration. I shot pork loins to validate the FBI 8.5 +/- 1 cm spec. It is indeed the same. Likewise a freshly killed (no rigor mortis) deer I shot before skinning and it too yielded within spec. It's kinda scary how deep a steel bb can go at that velocity. Not a toy is right!

[charlie b]

The critical part is still the stuff you put in front of the gelatin. Layers of denim, leather, fleece, etc depending on target. Something for bone is sometimes nice too just to check what happens to your bullets.

If this is for hunting you might also make sure the bullet is at the TERMINAL velocity, not the normal muzzle velocity, when it hits your test target.

[Outpost75]

^^^^THIS^^^^

Back in the day when I worked as a consultant for the Army at BRL, the Marine Corps at MCDEC and also for the FBI at the Academy at Quantico, we had a commercial kitchen to mix, pour and prepare, and a walk-in cooler to store the gelatin blocks, which were wrapped in plastic to keep them from drying out. They were dated and used within 3 days max and stabilized as to temperature and calibrated with the magic BB before firing data rounds. I was instructed in proper mixing and preparation of gelatin by Dr. Robert L. McCoy of the Ballistic Research Laboratory at Aberdeen Proving Ground and Col. M.L. Facker of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology. In knew Marty quite well and worked with him at Letterman on the AK74 evaluations as well as on the M16A1E1 development and modified operational test and we had some really great pork and goat BBQs.

Today for my own testing, I save milk and water jugs, and fill them with pond water at my range, and then perforate them to make them easier to compact before taking to the recycler. Using McPhearson's correction factor for penetration depth, the results are good enough for a hillbilly to test deer loads and personal defense ammo.

252500252501252502

[bmortell]

I made gel before then my fridge didn't kick on once cause I wasn't using my main food fridge. be better off having a dead horse in your house. some of the plastic containers it was in contact with stunk for years after no matter how much bleach and washing.