9mm Makarov Cast SD

[armednfree]

Let me start out by saying that I have absolutely no issues with carrying reloads for SD. The legal issues are non-existent. An SD shoot is clean or it isn't, it's that simple. That being said, I'm not doing anything funky with the loads. Each load is visually checked for defect, cycled through the gun and weighed for consistency. That being said, set it aside.


I often carry a Polish P64 or a CZ82 in 9x18 MAK, in the summer as a primary sometimes and in the winter as a BUG always.

The issue is the ammo. With the MAK you have really two choices. One is a 1r FMJ and the other the Hornady HP. Yes there is the Silver Bear HP but it rarely opens up.
The FMJ tends to pencil through and would probably expend its energy in the back of the thoracic cavity. That is if it didn't hit a rib on entry. The Hornady expands very well but at the severe loss of penetration. A bullet can expand very well, but if it does little or no damage to vital organs because it doesn't penetrate deep enough then all that expansion is wasted.


I see that a member here sells a mold that casts a flat point bullet. I find myself wondering if that is the style that would give the balance of penetration and tissue damage I'm looking for. I abandoned jacketed bullets for hunting years ago when I discovered the value of a flat point.


Thoughts on this?

[JIMinPHX]

The only case that I have run across where the gun/ammo was an issue was the Harrold Fish case in Cochise County AZ . The prosecutor there made a big deal out of the fact that the retired teacher had a "super powerful" 10mm automatic. The caliber was the issue, not the type of ammo. Aside from that case, I agree with you that I can find no case law where the ammo was at issue.

Those little polish officer guns are nice carry pieces. A Jay Pee medium auto IWB holster fits them well.

I have tried several types of ammo in them. All shot well except for 120-grain Wolf HP ammo, which damaged the gun. I later checked that ammo on a Chrony & found it to be at or just above the velocity of standard 95 grain ball ammo. Please do not subject your gun to that abuse. The gun can not be relied upon to finish firing a full magazine when that ammo is being fed through it. I too noticed that the Wolf HP did not open at all.

I have had great luck with the 95-gr Lee rn cast boolit in that cartridge over 3 grains of Bullseye. Accuracy was golf balls at 10 yards. Felt recoil was negligible for a blow back gun. Velocity was around 850 or 900fps. A fairly soft alloy should give you the performance that you are looking for with that boolit. The FP boolit that you spoke of should work at least as well & probably a little better if you opt for a harder alloy imho.

Please slug your bore before loading cast boolits for it. The diameters of the chambers & bores in those guns tend to wander a bit. They are most commonly a little on the big side.

[armednfree]

Who is the guy that sells the molds?

Buffalo Bore makes this 115 grain cast load, advertized at 1000fps.
http://www.buffalobore.com/images/products/detail_220_34B_medium.jpg

It's more than a buck a shot! Bullhonky on that! I'd rather shoot my own loads that I've shot hundreds of rather than a round I can only afford to shoot a few of. I'm not going to stake my life on it a round just because a factory makes it.

It would be nice if the bullet this guy sells would weigh a bit more, say in the 105 to 110 area.

[rintinglen]

I believe you want the Ranch Dog 95 grain mold. It is out of stock right now but the website has it coming back in stock July 24th. I have two of his molds, the 32 -75 grainer and the 380-95 grainer. They cast up great looking boolits quickly, but I have not had time to load them yet. Just click on the banner at the top of the page for a link to the web page. Guy who run's the place is a caster and shooter himself, and is one of our sponsor's.

[JIMinPHX]

It would be nice if the bullet this guy sells would weigh a bit more, say in the 105 to 110 area.

I would agree with that if it was going to be fired from a stronger gun. The one that we are talking about here is a straight blow back design with a slide that does not weigh very much.

That Buffalo Bore loading is pretty close to being the same as the load that damaged my gun.

I think that NOE may have also offered a flat point mold for the Mak. You might want to look back in the old group buy threads. I'm pretty sure that flat point Mak molds have come up as a topic there more than once. I believe that board member Leadman has a flat point Mak Mold. He might be a good source of info.

[MikeS]

I have no experience with the Mak, but thought I would remind folks that if you're looking for a mould for it, Accurate Molds would be a great place to look, as Tom makes 100% custom moulds, so even if he doesn't have what you're looking for in his catalog, with an email or two he can make almost any design you could imagine, as long as it has a flat meplat of at least .180" (I believe that's the size, but check his website to be sure).

I have no relationship with Accurate Molds other than being a very happy customer. Just tonight I was reloading some 45ACP's with his clone of the H&G #130, and was very happy with the quality of the boolits his moulds make!

[armednfree]

How much, if any, difference do you guys think it would make? I know the inmates we release are often very pumped up. The bullet would spend a great deal of itself just getting through all that chest muscle. That is why my rapid fire sequence is 2- lower abdomen, 2- chest, 2- head while backing away, and I am very fast at that. It is also why my buckshot reloads are .310 round balls cast by me at a BHN of 23.

If I offend anyone talking about terminal effects on human targets I do apologize. It may not be the usual coarse of discussion on these boards. But, I have been a Corrections Officer for 20 years and I can tell you that there are some people who wouldn't mind seeing me in a box. So I consider off duty safety of me and my family a very serious matter. That is why I am always armed off duty.

[Piedmont]

armednfree, I think you are on the right track. I'm now starting to load for this caliber and had Accurate Molds make a mold. This was before Ranch Dog offered one and RD told me not to expect a mold until the end of the year. That was too long. The Accurate Molds 37-100s borrowed heavily from the RD. It is a good mold and they fall right out.

Still I may carry ball for real. Light expanding bullets give me no confidence they will penetrate enough. BTW the AM 100 gr weighs between 99 and 100 grains from my mold without lube. The owner knows what he is doing and will make you anything you can conceive.

[leadhead]

Any one have any experince with Honady Critical Defence ammo in 9x18
Mak? I know they make it, but I can't find it anywhere.
Denny

[Pat I.]

But, I have been a Corrections Officer for 20 years and I can tell you that there are some people who wouldn't mind seeing me in a box. So I consider off duty safety of me and my family a very serious matter. That is why I am always armed off duty.

I hate getting into any kind of thread like this and love the 9x18 and my Makarovs but if that was my situation I'd sell them off and buy at the least a 9mm and preferably a 45. You can get guns that aren't much bigger than either you mentioned that pack a lot more wallop.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I would suggest a Mihec mould for this purpose. He has stock right now and the option of either a HP or solid boolit from the same mould is a good thing.

also everyone here will vouch for the quality of his moulds.

One final point, any of the above mentioned boolits would suffice in a failure to stop scenario. And they will also slow someone down enough so you can make said shot.

Randy

[9.3X62AL]

One factor to keep in mind if you are planning on running the 9mm Makarov at max power--this system is running at the upper end of blowback-operation capability already. The 95 grainers at 1100 FPS will be about as good as it gets, or heavier bullets at reduced velocities of equivalent pressures. Russian using services have made comments that 9mm Mak FMJ bullets can be stopped by the layered clothing worn during the bitter winters in that country.

This was part of the rationale for the advent of the 5.45 x 18 PSM pistol round--enhanced penetration in such circumstances. Keep in mind......this same nation changed out the fine 44 Russian/S&W #3 for the Nagant in 7.62 x 38R. They also have a history of routinely shooting all of their smart people "just because". FWIW.

I like my self-defense calibers to do one or both of two things--1) run bullets 1200 FPS or faster 2) have a diameter of .40"+. My usual carry critters are a Glock 23 or S&W 686. My 9mm Mak (East German) is a viable carry caliber, but sub-compact Glocks in 40 S&W, 10mm, and 45 ACP aren't much bigger than the Maks or most other blowbacks.

[armednfree]

The P64 is only carried alone in rarer situations, mostly when wearing shorts. That isn't that often. Normally I carry an XD40 sub compact or a 3" GP-100 and have the P64 as back up. The P64 is so slim that it is unnoticeable. It is better than a 380, which a lot of people carry, but not as good as a 9mm. With the right load it fits the bill.

[9.3X62AL]

Roger that. ANY sideiron beats throwing rocks, or surrender.

After 28 years of cop work, my SD concerns parallel your own closely.

[RU shooter]

Another mould you could keep an eye out for is the 95 gr SWC mould that was sold through Makarov.com quite a while ago. I got some bullets from one of those from a member here and while they dont look they should feed at all they do just fine and shoot very well. Presently Im saving my pennies for one of the Ranchdog Mak moulds as it pretty much mimicks my present carry load using the serria 100 gr FN

[armednfree]

Another mould you could keep an eye out for is the 95 gr SWC mould that was sold through Makarov.com quite a while ago. I got some bullets from one of those from a member here and while they dont look they should feed at all they do just fine and shoot very well. Presently Im saving my pennies for one of the Ranchdog Mak moulds as it pretty much mimicks my present carry load using the serria 100 gr FN

I've looked at the data presented at Makarov.com. They show a 100 grain plated LRN at 1027 FPS. That matches the Corbon velocity. How would that work with the Ranch Dog bullet?

[RU shooter]

I've looked at the data presented at Makarov.com. They show a 100 grain plated LRN at 1027 FPS. That matches the Corbon velocity. How would that work with the Ranch Dog bullet?
I would guess it would work fine .I use that same load of Bullseye with my 100 gr serria bullets.I normally use BE for my lighter loads but that load was the most accurate for me ,AA#5 also works well for the heavier loads.

Tim

[JIMinPHX]

It is better than a 380, which a lot of people carry, but not as good as a 9mm. With the right load it fits the bill.

It's closer to the .380 than it is to the 9x19 & the gun that you have is not up to the task of handling hot rod ammo. If you want to hot rod a caliber in that general power range, then you should really look for a gun with a locked breach design, & not use a straight blow back gun. The gun you have is at it's full potential with standard power factory ammo.

[Centaur 1]

I'm a fan of the Ranch Dog molds. I have one for the .380 and the Mak mold is virtually the same. I shoot that boolit in my LCP and my daughters bodyguard, it feeds flawlessly and I've never had a jam with it. I also load it in 9mm for my glock 26, and it works great with the polygonal rifling.

[armednfree]

950 to 1000 fps with a 95 grain should be very sufficient for what is eventually a BUG. It's the RN design that is the issue. The question is, will the flat point driven to like velocity as the RN terminally perform any better. Even at Makarov velocities the RN tends o penetrate too much and slides by stuff inside. The HP's expand way too fast and lack penetration at makarov velocities, same as 380's.

Does the flat point make the difference? Too bad there is no Box O' Truth on this.

[Piedmont]

Of course the flatpoint makes a difference. It makes a bigger hole. The big question is is your gun still as reliable with the flatpoint?

How did you determine that 95 grain ball penetrates too much?

[John in WI]

I can't speak to casting or reloading for the 9x18, but I DO carry my CZ-82 with Buffalo Bores, and with the original springs in the gun the recoil was pretty rough. Something about the 9x18 that's, I don't know, "sharp" on the hands? Kind of a stinging.

Anyway, for around $20 you can upgrade the recoil springs with a set from Wolff and really tame it down.

I had been using Silver Bears for financial reasons, but last fall I found a deer skeleton out in the woods--and from about 4' away, not only did the bullet not expand, it didn't even penetrate. It literally got wedged about 1/3 of the way in, slightly flattened.

Sure that would cause one heck of a headache on a BG, but now I am just burning them up for cheap practice. NO WAY would I stake my life on that!!

[Wayne Smith]

I use the Miha mold in mine. It's either a flatpoint or hollowpoint and feeds fine in my CZ82, Russian Civilian Mak, and my East German Mak.

[9.3X62AL]

Never lose sight of what GREAT bullet funnels eye sockets can make.

(Oh, that was scandalous of me)

[JIMinPHX]

950 to 1000 fps with a 95 grain should be very sufficient for what is eventually a BUG. It's the RN design that is the issue. The question is, will the flat point driven to like velocity as the RN terminally perform any better. Even at Makarov velocities the RN tends o penetrate too much and slides by stuff inside. The HP's expand way too fast and lack penetration at makarov velocities, same as 380's.

Does the flat point make the difference? Too bad there is no Box O' Truth on this.

It is my humble opinion, based on hunting experience & tests firing boolits into crumb rubber traps, that a flat point with a wide meplat tends to give terminal performance that is between a RN & a HP. It is also my humble opinion, that the hardness of the alloy that you cast a boolit from will have at least as much influence on terminal performance as the shape of the projectile. The adequacy of 95 grains @ 950-1000fps as a defensive round is a topic of much discussion in many circles. I'll choose to stay out of that discussion at this time.

[2wheelDuke]

I hate to bring threads back from the dead, but Ranch Dog has a 9x18 mold out. I can't wait to cast with mine and do some tests.

[Edub]

I hate to bring threads back from the dead, but Ranch Dog has a 9x18 mold out. I can't wait to cast with mine and do some tests.

I picked one up too. I'm pretty excited to test it out.

[9.3X62AL]

Hmmmmm.......alluding to my earlier posts in this thread, a 9 x 18 Mak might not be the BEST choice or my FIRST choice as felon repellant, but it beats throwing rocks or surrender decisively.

After ~20 years of messing about with the 9 Mak, I've concluded that it is about the single-best defensive pocket blowback system ever cobbled up. It has been characterized as a "380 + 10%" in a lot of gunrags, but these writers obviously never clocked a lot of USA-made 380 ACP ammo. Most of the 95 grain FMJ ball ammo does well to achieve 800 FPS in most actual pistol barrels--I think the "905 FPS" figure touted by ammomaker ad copy was derived from rifle-length barrels. Only European-made high-dollar 380 ACP ammo gets to 900 FPS, and then only in barrels of 3-3/4" length or more.

Full-strength 95 grain 9mm Mak ball ammo gives 1100-1125 FPS in my East German Mak. Such loads are a bit of a handful, as has been observed above. Oh, well!

I real-world loadings, the 9 Mak is indeed a mid-point between the 380 and the 9 x 19 Luger. And let's not forget that USA ammomakers underload the 9 x 19 about 15%-20% also. All three calibers would do well to be loaded to their full potential, because all have the street rep for being less than decisive in exchanges of finality. Again, that is why Our Creator gave predators eye sockets--to serve as efficient bullet funnels into the Brain Housing Group.