Newbie needing help II

[nemesisenforcer]

I'm new to the casting scene and true to form, just jumped in with both feet and no training or prior thought given to finding out anything ahead of time.

I've got access to WW aplenty, but I'm concerned that I might be getting zinc in the mix.

I saw the stickies on sorting wheel weights and will definitely try to do that in the future, but I'm having barrel leading problems and wondering if zinc may be the culprit?

[454PB]

Don't feel like the lone ranger.....most all of us started out the same way, it's called "on the job training".

No, zinc isn't your problem unless you have some really bad looking boolits as a result of having it in your alloy.....which would be obvious before you loaded them.

Read some of the stickies and use the search function to learn how to avoid leading.

Assuming your bore is not copper fouled, the major culprits are undersized boolits, bad or insufficient lubrication, too much pressure/velocity, or a rough bore.

[quiver]

Welcome!

A sufficient amount of zinc in the alloy would have made it impossible to cast from what I have read. Also zinc is harder than lead but I don't know if it would cause an alloy to be softer and cause leading. Most causes of leading are inadequate lube, velocity, fit of boolit, or a rough bore.

[nemesisenforcer]

OK so zinc isn't the issue. The boolits are coming out of the mold pretty good (had some issues with one mold but cleaned it and it got better, but not perfect) so it's something else, most likely the lube as far as I can figure.

I'll keep plugging away.

[littlejack]

nemesisenforcer:
Welcome to the CastBoolits sir.
As was previously stated, make sure ALL of the copper fouling is out of the bore you are shooting the cast boolits in. This copper fouling will grab onto the lead as it trips down the bore, and cause all kinds of leading.
After cleaning the copper from your bore, slug the barrell. You will need to know the bore and groove size, depending on the design of boolit you intend to shoot.
You did not mention if you were shooting your boolits in a rifle or handgun. Depending on which one, there will be other things to watch for and check.
Welcome to the wonderful world of cast boolit shooting.
Jack

[Cmemiss]

I would bet on sizing before I bet on lube, but i've been wrong before.

[GRUMPA]

I don't think zinc is the issue here, it sounds like a combination of things, sizing and lube would be what I would call important to know, as well as the caliber your using.

I would take this issue to the cast boolit area of this site and go from there.

It would help if you posted it there to know the following.

What's it being used in
Type of lead (mixed in tin with WW for example)
What kind of mould your using
What type of lube your using
How fast are you trying to push them
What's the groove diameter of your barrel
And that's just for starters, there's just a good place to start.

[nemesisenforcer]

Don't know the exact diameter of the bores, but I'm shooting a Rossi 357, Ruger GP 100, Ruger SP101 (all stainless barrels) and a Taurus 1911 and SIG 220 (both carbon steel barrels I'm pretty sure.)

I'm using Lee molds, 158 grain SWC with gas check for the 357, 230 grain LRN tumble lube for the 45. I'm not trying for any world records of speed, but I'd like to get to 850 fps without any problems, which everything I've read indicates shouldn't be a problem with wheel weights which is my alloy.

I'm using Lee Liquid Alox for lube and when I size them, it's .357 and .452 but it's important to note that I get the leading with either sized or unsized rounds. The only time there is no leading is when I keep the velocity in the 500 fps range, not very practical for "full power" shooting and that low of a pressure won't even work the action on my SIG.

[lwknight]

You really need to slug the bores and get the bullet size at least about 1/1000 larger.
If the bullets are too loose the gases go around the bullet and burn off lead even with the gas check. That is the main cause of all leading. Even if the bullet were an excact fit and not hard enough , there would be some rifling skid which would allow gas to seep by.

[Lizard333]

My first thought was incorrect sizing of your boolits. If you slug your barrel and rid that it is say 357, then you want to try at least 358. Or larger.

[nemesisenforcer]

My first thought was incorrect sizing of your boolits. If you slug your barrel and rid that it is say 357, then you want to try at least 358. Or larger.

My thoughts as well, which is why I shot some unsized. Leading just as bad as the sized ones.

This is a common theme across the calibers and guns, so I'm pretty sure it's not the boolits or molds or guns that's to blame, but something I'm doing wrong.

Please fix my stupidity. I'm stupid at enough things. I don't need another thing I really suck at and spend a bunch of money on in hopeless attempts to be smart, only to end in hopeless and helpless frustration.

[turmech]

One possibility may be if you are not expanding the cases enough during the reloading process thus shaving the bullets down and removing too much lube. This might explain your leading will all guns rather sized or not.

[lwknight]

I'm getting a picture that there is only mixed wheel weights in the alloy. If that be the case then you have a little antimony with only trace tin. The problem with antimony only in lead is that its not an alloy but a mixture. You have pure antimony suspended in pure lead. You will have leading big time in most guns.

Adding some tin not only helps casting but it makes the lead and antimony actually alloy up to be truly harder than pure lead. Without tin it just acts like its harder than lead only.

[nemesisenforcer]

I'm getting a picture that there is only mixed wheel weights in the alloy. If that be the case then you have a little antimony with only trace tin. The problem with antimony only in lead is that its not an alloy but a mixture. You have pure antimony suspended in pure lead. You will have leading big time in most guns.

Adding some tin not only helps casting but it makes the lead and antimony actually alloy up to be truly harder than pure lead. Without tin it just acts like its harder than lead only.

Then why does virtually every source I've read prior to this state that pure WW is just fine for boolits without any modification?

I've already cast the better part of 2000 boolits and REALLY don't want to have to remelt them and spend yet more money on something that may or may not fix the problem. I started casting to have a huge supply of more or less free boolits and not it's looking like this whole endeavor might be a giant money pit if I keep it up.

[littlejack]

I have cast thousands of boolits with just ww alloy and no tin, and have had fine results. There are many, many casters that have cast only ww alloy, and had the same results.
The fellow that taught me to cast some 45 years ago, only used ww alloy and shot in many
tournaments. I never heard him saying that he had any problems with leading from the alloy.
If I didn't have any tin these days, I would not feel handicapped in my casting with just the
ww alloy.
I guess, I only use the tin, because I have it.
I wouldn't melt down all of those boolits, unless you positively fine out that it is the alloy that
is the problem. Even then, you could swap or sell them on the CastBoolits.
Jack

[454PB]

Here's something you can try without it costing much. Buy a stick of NRA formula (50/50 beeswax/alox) boolit lube. Use your fingers to fill the lube grooves, or pan lube if you wish. Shoot them unsized.

Since unsized boolits are leading, it sounds like the LLA is not working for you. If you find that the hand lubed boolits stop the leading, you can pursue an alternate method of lubrication.

In all my years of casting, I've never seen a gas checked boolit lead the bore, regardless of the lube used. The gas check actually removes the leading. The early .357 magnum factory loads utilized very soft lead gas checked bullets at around 1400 fps. with no leading.

Don't get discouraged, there is an answer out there, you just have to do some trial and error until you find what's wrong.

[Char-Gar]

Don't go worrying about something that probably does not exist. I have fired many thousands of bullets cast from WW and never had a zinc issue.

Cast, shoot and enjoy yourself. Deal with any issues if and when they come up. Life is much less stressful that way.

[lwknight]

Ya hear that boys , we been wasting our money adding tin to the alloy.
LOL!!

I wonder why commercial casters do that?

[nemesisenforcer]

So, do I add tin or not? There seems to be 2 schools of thought from the experts here.

[lwknight]

As I pointed out earlier, the bullet fit is first and foremost the most important.
If your barrel is clean and broken in and the bullet fits the bore properly , you may do well without any added tin.
A little tin most certainly cannot hurt anything and it makes casting go better.

Also unsized bullets might still be under size. That's why so many people beagle out their molds.

[fredj338]

You can try adding tin, but something else is going on. It's either size or rough bore or you are expecting mirror clean bores. I shoot lead bullets in almost everything, mostly straight clip ww, from 800-1600fps. I don't have any leading issues that don't clean up w/ normal cleaning. In most of my guns, I don't even think about serious cleaning for 1000rds. It could be lube but I doubt it. I gave up on Alox decades ago & went sizer & BW based lubes. Make sure the bbl is free of any copper fouling before going to lead bullets & don't switch back & forth w/o cleaning.

[Char-Gar]

One of the ongoing issues on this board is just what constitutes leading. I started a thread on this some while back and it was very informative.

When a new caster reads that "my loads don't lead", they think that means the condition of the barrel after firing is just like it would be after firing jacketed bullets. That is not true.

99% of plain base cast bullet loads will leave a lead wash, plus some lube and powder trash behind. This cleans out with a dozen or so back and forth strokes with a brush and good solvent. This stuff does not impair accuracy.

This stuff keep on poping up over and over gain, with new folks having unrealistic expectations because some many folks post about their loads not leading.

[nemesisenforcer]

You can try adding tin, but something else is going on. It's either size or rough bore or you are expecting mirror clean bores. I shoot lead bullets in almost everything, mostly straight clip ww, from 800-1600fps. I don't have any leading issues that don't clean up w/ normal cleaning. In most of my guns, I don't even think about serious cleaning for 1000rds. It could be lube but I doubt it. I gave up on Alox decades ago & went sizer & BW based lubes. Make sure the bbl is free of any copper fouling before going to lead bullets & don't switch back & forth w/o cleaning.

a 1000 rounds? I couldn't go 100 or even 50 without having splinters and shards of lead in my bores. I'm not expecting bright and shiny, but I feel I'm definitely getting more than normal and much more than when I shot commercial lead bullets.

[nemesisenforcer]

One of the ongoing issues on this board is just what constitutes leading. I started a thread on this some while back and it was very informative.

When a new caster reads that "my loads don't lead", they think that means the condition of the barrel after firing is just like it would be after firing jacketed bullets. That is not true.

99% of plain base cast bullet loads will leave a lead wash, plus some lube and powder trash behind. This cleans out with a dozen or so back and forth strokes with a brush and good solvent. This stuff does not impair accuracy.

This stuff keep on poping up over and over gain, with new folks having unrealistic expectations because some many folks post about their loads not leading.

I wondered if my expectations were too high as well, but after looking at the bores and putting a LOT of effort into having to scrub them out I can't help but come to the conclusion that I'm getting more lead in the rifling than is normal or expected and I can't figure out why.

[Stick_man]

Another possibility exists. How are you loading your shells? Are you using the Lee Factory Crimp Die? If so, try breaking down a loaded round and measure the boolit once again. The FCD will swage your boolit down to where it is undersized and it will then lead the barrel. A lot of the commercial cast bullets are cast to a bhn of 18 or more so they survive shipping without deformation.

Adding tin to wheel weights will (could) assist in your mold fillout. If you use straight clip-on weights, you will be getting about 1% tin. The stick-on weights are very near pure and are ideal for muzzleloaders but not for smokeless cartridges. Most casters only add tin if they are not getting good mold fillout. Anything over about 3% tin is, IMO, a waste of tin.

For handguns, I use a 50/50 mix of clip-ons and stick-ons without issue. Others use the same mix for virtually all their applications, from .38spl up through 45/70 or even .30'06 loads.

[nemesisenforcer]

Another possibility exists. How are you loading your shells? Are you using the Lee Factory Crimp Die? If so, try breaking down a loaded round and measure the boolit once again. The FCD will swage your boolit down to where it is undersized and it will then lead the barrel. A lot of the commercial cast bullets are cast to a bhn of 18 or more so they survive shipping without deformation.

Adding tin to wheel weights will (could) assist in your mold fillout. If you use straight clip-on weights, you will be getting about 1% tin. The stick-on weights are very near pure and are ideal for muzzleloaders but not for smokeless cartridges. Most casters only add tin if they are not getting good mold fillout. Anything over about 3% tin is, IMO, a waste of tin.

For handguns, I use a 50/50 mix of clip-ons and stick-ons without issue. Others use the same mix for virtually all their applications, from .38spl up through 45/70 or even .30'06 loads.

Not using any crimp dies, just the roll crimp on the seating die.

Please clarify something because your post seems somewhat contradictory to my young and inexperienced eyes: straight WWs are fine for everything, but I might need to add tin because WWs might not be fine for me if I'm not getting mold fill out, which I am with and without tin (again, to my young and inexperienced eyes.) So which is it: WWs are fine or WWs plus tin are necessary?

[canyon-ghost]

Rugers, eh? I don't use an M die or anything fancy, it just took scrubbing them out as you describe. I used a bronze brush to start with and then went to the usual nylon brush. Took me about 4 cleanings to get all the copper out and get a good coat of Carnuba Red through them.

I'm not really working with .357 but, it seems when sizing is the culprit, too small or too large cause problems. Then again, Rugers are known to have a rough spot just forward of the forcing cone, "barrel thread crush" as it were. They are a little rough when new.

I use wheelweights without much else. A good gas check bullet and better lube will get you there. A magnum should be running 1200 fps so, you trying to do it awfully slow.

There is such a thing as sliding the bullet of a hardened alloy against the rifling enough to shred it but, I'd think you'd have to go faster to do that. Then again, maybe the light loads aren't sealing well and the blowby is a problem.

I'm shooting two Blackhawks in 44 spl and 41 mag, once they got enough lube and a gas check, things evened out. I can even shoot the plain-based bullets reliably.

Now about tin, it's good but not absolutely necessary when you first start. Just make sure you load the bullets with sharp bases, none with rounded edges. You'll get some rounded edges on bullet bases without tin, just remelt and don't worry.

My thought is simple, they are stainless (don't they lead more?). The barrel material will be very hard, it's going to take a lot to smooth them up. You might look up firelapping, and try it (lightly, very lightly). Or, keep loading up bullets and shooting them. A good cleaner will be mineral spirits paint thinner, don't use a copper solvent, that really is work! Acetone if you really need a dissovling cleaner for sticky lube.

By the way, what brand dies are you using? I use RCBS most of the time.

Good Luck,
Ron

[Stick_man]

Most times, straight clip-on wheel weights are fine. Because of the differing alloys being used by the different wheel weight manufacturers, there are times when a little bit of additional tin could be called for to get good mold fill-out. This has nothing to do with bore leading, just mold fill-out. A lot depends on the mold being used and the temp at which you are casting.

Some people add tin for easier casting. Others add it for whatever reason they think they need to. For handguns, I have never found a need to add tin yet. But then, I think a lot of my wheel weights are older, made when the tin content was a little higher than they make them today.

My comment about adding tin is for the smokeless cartridges, not black powder. Straight stick-on wheel weights, as said earlier, are generally considered to be very nearly pure lead (except for the Zn and Fe ones, obviously). The smokepole shooters use them without adding any tin.

[nemesisenforcer]

Rugers, eh? I don't use an M die or anything fancy, it just took scrubbing them out as you describe. I used a bronze brush to start with and then went to the usual nylon brush. Took me about 4 cleanings to get all the copper out and get a good coat of Carnuba Red through them.

I'm not really working with .357 but, it seems when sizing is the culprit, too small or too large cause problems. Then again, Rugers are known to have a rough spot just forward of the forcing cone, "barrel thread crush" as it were. They are a little rough when new.

I use wheelweights without much else. A good gas check bullet and better lube will get you there. A magnum should be running 1200 fps so, you trying to do it awfully slow.

There is such a thing as sliding the bullet of a hardened alloy against the rifling enough to shred it but, I'd think you'd have to go faster to do that. Then again, maybe the light loads aren't sealing well and the blowby is a problem.

I'm shooting two Blackhawks in 44 spl and 41 mag, once they got enough lube and a gas check, things evened out. I can even shoot the plain-based bullets reliably.

Now about tin, it's good but not absolutely necessary when you first start. Just make sure you load the bullets with sharp bases, none with rounded edges. You'll get some rounded edges on bullet bases without tin, just remelt and don't worry.

My thought is simple, they are stainless (don't they lead more?). The barrel material will be very hard, it's going to take a lot to smooth them up. You might look up firelapping, and try it (lightly, very lightly). Or, keep loading up bullets and shooting them. A good cleaner will be mineral spirits paint thinner, don't use a copper solvent, that really is work! Acetone if you really need a dissovling cleaner for sticky lube.

By the way, what brand dies are you using? I use RCBS most of the time.

Good Luck,
Ron

I use Lee dies for the most part, though I'm using a old set of Redding for the 45 ACP.