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View Full Version : Thoughts on this, for 1871 Mauser?



jonk
04-16-2007, 08:33 PM
1. My 1871 has a bore that measures .452. .45 ACP bullets would be a good choice, but cause the case to be too tight to reliably chamber.

2. Most 11mm Mauser molds measure .446, too loose for good target work.

3. Wouldn't a heel based bullet with a heel measuring .446 and a driving band measuring .452 in around 370 grain weight be great?

4. Does anyone make such a creature?

5. If not, do enough 1871 owners have similar issues to warrant a group buy???

6. Am I nuts?:-D

Mk42gunner
04-16-2007, 09:38 PM
3. How big is the gas check shank on a 45 rifle boolit? Maybe you could find one with a large enough shank to act as a heeled bullet.

6. Probably.:kidding:

Good Luck


Robert

Ricochet
04-16-2007, 10:12 PM
How about a .446" boolit with a paper patch on the part of the boolit outside the case mouth to bring up the diameter to fit the chamber throat? Kind of like a heeled boolit.

Buckshot
04-16-2007, 10:16 PM
jonk, "1. My 1871 has a bore that measures .452. "


.................I think you mean groove. The bore is something else :-) The 1871 Mauser is supposed to have a GROOVE of .451" and a BORE of .433". In 1884 when Mauser came out with, and Germany accepted his tube fed repeater, that model had a GROOVE reduction to .446" and they kept the same BORE of .433".

The mould available and listed for the BPC Mauser is intended for the repeater. The rifle was also intended to take a BORE diameter paper patched boolit which the BP charge upset into the grooves. I also think (my theory) is that since the grooves were about .007" deep, the tall lands helped upset lead into the groove at engraving.

Lyman actually makes an excellent mould for the 1871 Mauser, however they call it the Whitworth, or Parker-Hale design. It's number is 457121 and it's a 475gr Loverin FNPB. They drop from the mould at about .452"/.453". Easily sized down in a lube-sizer to .451" .

A story (bear with me :-))

At the very first get together of 5 of the old Shooters.com cast boolit members at Topaz Lake, NV we had a 600 yard range. See top photo here:

http://www.castpics.net/topaz/range/topaz_range.htm

At the end of that dirt road, at the base of that hill is a lighter colored impact area. Hanging on a tripod there was a 1'x2' piece of steel. The top half was painted white, so all you could see (as a teeny tiny speck) was the one foot square bottom half. I intended to hit it with my Whitworth ML'ing match rifle, which at that time would have been the most distant shot I'd ever undertaken, regardless of the firearm type.

If you check out some of the other photos you might get the impression that the wind was blowing? Your impression would be very correct. It was hell trying to load that rifle. The wind would blow the powder away unless you were right on top of the muzzle, it was blowing my patches off the table and blowing sand was getting in and one the lube cookies and everything else, for that matter. Add to that I had (and still pretty much have) zero wind reading ability atthat range. Add to that the wind was gusty and thanks to hills to our right, it was also variable and 'swirley'.

I made 5 shots at the plate. A young deputy sheriff friend of Curmudgeon's was spotting for me and while all 5 rounds missed, 3 were within inches of the plate. I just couldn't go through the rigamarole in reloading fast enough to be able to shoot through the same conditions.

Enter the 1871 Mauser! I had it loaded with that 475gr Lyman over a charge of surp 4895 that was good for just over 1400 fps. Not wanting to spend a bunch of ammo in ranging, as a default I lifted up the ladder and ran the elevator up to the '6'. As luck would have it, that was perfect. After 2 sighters I hit the plate!

And that's my big 1871 Mauser story [smilie=w: You can see the boolit, here:

http://www.castpics.net/RandD/Lyman_moulds/lyman26.htm

Down at the bottom of the page.

....................Buckshot

jonk
04-16-2007, 10:56 PM
Buckshot,

The bullet in question indeed looks like it would do well out of the gun; it would not however solve the diameter and chambering problem, or ?

Ricochets idea of paper patching just part of the bullet seems to have merit, but the Lyman 466340 isn't really a paper patch design. I've never done paper patching so I could be misinformed on this, but I thought they were smooth walled slugs wrapped in paper. It's worth trying, certainly, but I don't hold OVERLY high hopes.

Mk42 gunner's idea also has merit, but that would mean that only a very small portion of the bullet would be seated into the case; though I suppose the same could be said of my original idea as well, unless the heel were to be quite long.

If I can find a good 439" to 446" job suitable for paper patching, that could be possible too...

beagle
04-16-2007, 10:58 PM
Jonk...You can always size the base of the bullet down partially in a sizing die.

I've taken the base band on PB bullets down far enough to accept a GC before and it's quite easy./beagle

leftiye
04-16-2007, 11:41 PM
Or, you might ream out the neck area of the chamber?

Leftoverdj
04-17-2007, 03:53 AM
How thick's your brass at the mouth? Neck turning might be all you need to make .452 diameter bullets work.

Andy_P
04-17-2007, 07:04 AM
The 43 Mauser has a very long neck. You can make brass from Track of the Wolf's 44-77 Sharps, which will be a bit short on neck length (but the bullets are long), so depending on your chamber, they might chamber in your gun with 0.452" bullets.

Or, ream out the chamber neck

Or, outside neck turn the brass

Or, paper-patch

Or, get a custom heeled mold

Or, try a 45 cal hollow-base mold in pure lead, sized to fit the neck, and see if it will obturate.

Buckshot
04-18-2007, 03:10 AM
..............You don't need a paper patch design to paper patch the boolit.

http://www.fototime.com/DA2464CBB8749ED/standard.jpg

Two of the 3 on the left are patched grease groove boolits.

http://www.fototime.com/0FDEA25C2215222/standard.jpg

All these patched slugs in the 577-450 Martini cases are the Lee 458-405F. Another grease grooved boolit.

It sounds as if your chamber neck is extra tight. Lots of those old BPCR's had similar chambers. As I mentioned, they used a bore sized slug and the BP charge upset it into the grooves. WHile my 1871 is tight, I can at least get a groove sized slug to chamber. My 1879 Argentine RB is similar as there isn't any extra room beyond a groove sized slug.

...................Buckshot

fourarmed
04-18-2007, 11:28 AM
If you can get hold of a Lee Factory Crimp Die or Redding Profile Crimp Die in the right size, it might take the OD of your loaded round down just enough to chamber.

jonk
04-18-2007, 06:04 PM
A few options have presented themselves. I will certainly try patching my existing bullet and see how that does. Following that, CBE ammodump, australia, has a mold for a 44 Remington that has a heel of .446 and body of .452. Sounds perfect, and they tell me they can lengthen the length of the heel as desired; I'm waiting on particulars from a second email. All cheaper than buying pricey PP bullets from Buffaloarms for $17/50.......

Buckshot
04-19-2007, 02:22 AM
All cheaper than buying pricey PP bullets from Buffaloarms for $17/50.......

............Er............, if you watch any TV, you patch your own boolits while doing that so it isn't a total waste of time :-) (I know, I know, there IS some worthwhile stuff on TV).

...............Buckshot

jonk
04-19-2007, 11:57 AM
Buckshot,

I know...that's how much they charge for the NEKKID bullet!

uscra112
04-19-2007, 11:56 PM
Buckshot nailed it. The 11mm Mauser was DESIGNED as a paper-patch cartridge rifle. I have one myself, and a coffee-can-full of the original ammo. The OEM boolit is dead soft, and has the usual two-wrap paper patch. The neck of the chamber is small, because the boolit itself is small, by the rules we use today. This may be because, this being a blackpowder round, they were concerned with being able to chamber the round in a fouled gun. This was, after all, a military rifle. But with the slug being dead soft, it will easily obturate into the rifling as it leaves the case. Clever, those Germans.

BTW I bought a batch of brand new brass from RCBS a while ago. Maybe they still have some.

My gun appears to be - (wait for it) - unfired. So I haven't yet had the courage to deflower it. (Jeez, a 125 year old virgin - whod'a thunk it!) When I do, it will be with new-made, smokeless-charged, paper patched ammo. Should be a hoot!

uscra112
04-20-2007, 12:03 AM
Find a copy of Paul Matthews book, "The Paper Jacket" and read up. He has everything you need to know in there to make that old Mauser work like it was designed to.