25-20 accuracy problems

[atr]

using a savage 23B in 25-20
85 gr plain base / FN .......sized .257 and .258 ( accuracy same with either sizing)
8.6 gr of 2400
at 25 yds 8 shots in 3/4"x 3/4"
BUT
at 50 yds 8 shots in 4" x 4" !!!
no tumbling but a very wide spread..
opinions as to what is happening to the accuracy? I am thinking that this boolit is not getting enough velocity but could use some opinions

[9.3X62AL]

You are likely getting close to 1600 FPS with that load. I use gas check designs in my rifles from about 1400 FPS onward.

The RCBS 85 CM in my Marlin 94CL shoots well until about 1350 FPS, then goes all crummy-weird. It does the same thing in my 250 Savage, which shares its 1-14" twist with the Marlin 25-20. All above castings were in 92/6/2 alloy, FWIW.

[w30wcf]

Gas Checked bullets would be best for faster burning powders when exceeding 1400 f.p.s.

On the other hand, with plain based bullets, I have found that a capacity load of slower burning H322, H335, and similar powders give very good accuracy at 1,600-1,700 f.p.s.

w30wcf

[Larry Gibson]

Way too fast at a probable 1600 - 1700 fps for that PB'd bullet. My own 85 gr HPs are kept below 1200 fps in my 23B or accuracy goes south just like yours. Suggest the GC'd 257420 sized at .258 for top end loads like the one you're using.

Larry Gibson

[atr]

ok guys...thanks
I'll slow them down a bit...

[35remington]

In duplicating the load data in Lyman's 49th using the various powders listed, I obtained 1800 fps with the Remington 86 grain softpoint and 9.0 grains 2400. Since I usually get a little higher velocity with lead bullets than jacketed, you are not far from that speed with your load of 8.6 grains.

6 grains 2400 will get you in the vicinity of 1400 fps. Try that approximate load and see where it takes you. I would not go over 6.3 to 6.5 grains in any event. That level will take you to, or over, 1460 to 1500 fps.

[Rotaxxx]

I have read that the 23B's like lighter grain boolits, some were in the 65grn. I did some research on it, I just got a 23B a few weeks ago and wanted to cast for it and that's what I had found.

[runfiverun]

lots of the 25-20's don't like the heavier boolits.
i had the opposite with my mdl-92 win and a 72 gr plain base, the faster i pushed it the better it shot.
i am using a much slower powder though.

[atr]

OK range report 5-23-2012
I loaded up the same boolit....85gr plain base with 4.2gr of UNIQUE...about 1200 fps
again shot VERY well at 25 yards....very tight group....hurray, hurray
BUT again at 50 yds all over the target AND they were keyholing !
Plan C ?
atr

[runfiverun]

try bumping the load up for 100.
the boolit may just be too heavy and is slowing down,try the speed first.

[beemer]

I use the Lyman 87 gr. boolit without the gas check with 6.5 grs of AA#9 in my Savage. They are unsized and drop out at .259. I seat the boolit to lightly touch the rifling. The vel. is about 1440. The little rifle shoots very well with most groups falling into better than 2'' at 100 yds.

I tried the RCBS 85 gr. and the Lyman 60 gr. with no luck at all, I'am not saying they don't work I just didn't find the right combo. I think the 25-20 is a little fussy to load, small case small changes or you miss the sweet spot.

I really like my little Savage, hope you enjoy yours.

Dave

[44man]

Long ago I had a 25-20 original 1892 Marlin. I still cry about selling it.
Now don't expect me to remember the load! :confused:
I am sure I used the 257420 Lyman but the rest escapes me.
I remember getting 3/4" at 100 yards with open sights before the gremlin stole my eyeballs! :evil:
I also had an original 71 that I could head shoot chucks with at 100 yards using a cast Lyman.
Now what I knew about cast back then was not very much yet they shot and so did my flat top .44 and S&W .357.
I have no idea what my 25-20 twist was compared to the Savage but I never seen any Savage of any kind that would not shoot. I considered them a "sleeper", accuracy above all the more expensive guns. The bolt guns did not sell good because of the barrel nut, guys did not like the nut but what better way to set head space?
I sure wish I could remember for you.

[atr]

range update 5-24-2012
PLAN C
I upped the charge to 5.2 gr Unique
disappointing results......at 25 yds fair accuracy but a slight tendency to keyhole
at 50 yds again not a tight pattern and again a sligh tendency to keyhole.
PLAN D ??

[Goatwhiskers]

Just a thought--I was catching heck with plain base in my .357Max--read up on this site about paper patching. Don't have all the details worked out but accuracy is steadily improving, no leading, etc. Excuses to shoot more--YES! Goat

[Freischütz]

There's a long 25/20 discussion in the Marlin forums' reloading section. You may find it useful. http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/reloading/

A recent issue of the CBA's Fouling Shot contained a write up on Savage 23 in 25/20 problems. The author found the chamber and throat were designed for 60 gr jacketed bullets. He partially solved his accuracy problem by using harder bullets. I believe Linotype gave the best results.

[35remington]

As I suggested, try the 1400 fps range with 6-6.3 grains 2400. A little dacron to reduce gas cutting as well, just to try a variation. Fill all space between powder and bullet. About 0.2 grain will suffice.

Experiment with unsized bullets of larger diameter and seating depth.....short jump into rifling, just into rifling, well into rifling.

There's a lot left to do.

What bullet are you using? If it's the RCBS, don't fill all the lube grooves with lube. Too much is present.

[LtFrankDrebbin]

+1 with Freischutz, BIG info over on Marlin owners.
++++1 with 35remington having done a lot of R&D with the 25-20.
Yes to the RCBS 25-85 hard cast light with the lube. Tumbled with thined Allox.
Yes to the use of dacron. Yes to keeping below 1500fps.
My Win 92 has a after market barrel with a 1:13 twist, 85grain boolits will not stableise under 1300fps. Over 1500 fps leading and fliers start.
If not cast hard the RCBS lube grooves will collaps and the bullet can launch off ballance.

[atr]

Yes I am using the RCBS mold....so I will cut back on filling the lubrication grooves
Yes I am using hard cast
Yes I am seating just to kiss the rifling
Yes I have read the article mentioned.....very good article
Thanks all.....Im not giving up yet !

[Glen]

Go to a slower powder, like 4227 or 1680.

[kelbro]

4227 is a good powder in both of my 23Bs with 60gr J-bullets.

[Char-Gar]

The Guys are right. Way to much speed for a plain base bullet. Changing powder won't help. Either reduce your powder charge or get a gas check bullet.

I have been shooting 25-20s since about 1961. Today I have two, a Winchester 92 and a Remington 25. I get excellent accuracy from both with 90 grains Lyman 257312 over 9/4227.

In general I am not a fan of straight linotype bullets, but that is what I use for these bullets. It helps small bullets fill out well.

[beagle]

You might try GCing a few. I've done that on the RCBS PB. Think I had a .244" sizer (articles on Castpics). I sized the base band enough to take the GC and then sized and lubed. They shot well in my Marlin but I'm not getting into this as I had it rebarrelled with a 1-12 twist and now it shoots light and heavy bullets so my conditions are not the same as yours.

Might try GCing a few and giving them a try./beagle

[atr]

range update 2-8-2013
OK finally got some time to experiment with the Savage 25-20
85 gr RCBS plain base / sized as cast at 0.260 (0.2595) / hard cast at about 20
only the first lub ring filled
using 5.5 grains of 2400......key holed at 50 yds and large spread
using 9.0 grains of 2400......NO key holeing at 50 yds...the spread shrank down but still not as good accuracy as I would have liked. More experiment to tighten the group is necessary.
I have tried the full range of velocity loads with this boolit....from below minimum to maximum and it is evident that the faster I push it the better it stabalizes. I also think the unsized diameter of 0.260 is helping with stabalization.