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View Full Version : 311291 175gr. in .300 Savage rifles



26Charlie
07-05-2005, 09:30 AM
Another mould I picked up during my "interlude" was a 4-cavity Lyman 311291, the .30-30 round-nosed design. I follow the policy on used moulds of " any 4-cavity rifle bullet mould is worth having - you just never know what may come along in the way of rifles to fit it".
Well, I churned out a good several hundred bullets with this mould. I also loaded some .30-30 rounds - surprise - the nose is too fat for the bullet to be crimped in the crimping groove and still chamber in Winchester rifles. More about the .30-30's later.
Over the years I had somehow picked up four nice hunting rifles in .300 Savage caliber. I determined to use this bullet to create a utility CB load which would work nicely in all four rifles. The load as I settled on it is the 311291 GC sized .309, seated to almost cover the top band on the bullet (yes, the short neck of the .300 Savage means that there are grease grooves "down in the fire" as Felix says); 22.0 gr Scot 4197 (like IMR 4198 - I bought 32 pounds of it at a very good price); lastly sparked it off with a Winchester Large Rifle (WLR) primer.
On the range yesterday the load proved out nicely. The rifles and 100 yard 5-shot group sizes are as follows:
Remington M722 bolt action, 3-9x scope - 2 7/16".
Savage M99 lever action, open sights - 2 13/16".
Remington M760 slide action, aperture rear & bead front - 2 13/16".
H&R (?) Reising prototype slide action, aperture rear & bead front - 1 7/8".

The last rifle is interesting - it was a deer rifle for at least 35 years for a man who died before I bought it from the dealer his widow sold it to. It has the appearance of a factory rifle, including an H&R logo butt pad, finish, etc. The only markings on it are a hand-stamped "E. C. Reising" and a small number "3" on the fillet of the trigger guard. The detachable magazine is marked ".300 Sav." and the number "6". The design follows one of Reising's patents from 1935. I surmise that this is one of a limited number of pre-production prototypes that never went into production.
It is easy to see why it would not have competed well - the block tips up in front to lock in the receiver, like the Rem. M141, while the M760 has a rotating bolt with locking lugs. The reciever is longer, and the rifle has more machining and less stampings than the M760. The magazine is single-stack and holds 3, meaning 4 in the rifle, whereas the M760 holds 4 in the magazine and 5 in the rifle. It could not have been produced for the costs that the competition rifle, the M760, incurred, and so would have had to sell for a considerably higher price. If WW II hadn't intervened, it could have given the M14 - M141 a run for the money. But by 1950 it was "out - cheapened" and "out - featured", if you will. It is a fine shooter, though.

This load was very satisfying to test in these four rifles. I'll try it out in a cast-bullet silhouette match this year if possible. Also I'll load up a hundred or so rounds more to have on hand.

w30wcf
07-07-2005, 06:57 PM
26Charlie,
Congratulations on your find and for sharing your load info. Nice vintage rifles!

At our Cast Bullet Silhouette Championship in Ridgway, PA last month, we had a side match for lever action rifles at 300 meters (327 yards). The match was 10 shots at 10 steel javelina which could be fired from prone, sitting or offhand. The fellow that won shot a 9x10 from a sitting position using the 311291 in an old 99 / .300 Savage w / peep sight.

That's some shooting! I can't recall the load that he used, but if I find out I'll let you know.

w30wcf

26Charlie
07-09-2005, 12:49 AM
Thanks for the info, w30wcf - and I'm working on some .30wcf loadings with the 4-cav 311291 myself. Our range only goes out to 250 yards, so I haven't shot any further - but that is indeed some fine shooting at the 300 meter range.
The bullet nose as it is now is too fat for the round to chamber in the Winchester 94 if it is crimped in the crimping groove on the bullet. So naturally I seated it deeper and crimped over the top band, which works fine in my .30-30s. BUT - I think the mould is not closing correctly - it may be that the metal is peened up around the pins, and when I get some time to play with it I'll make sure it is flat on the block faces and the pins are adjusted properly. It might be possible to correct the problem.
It is really nice to be dumping out four rifle bullets at a time - don't let a good used 4-cav rifle mould get past you if you encounter one.

stocker
07-09-2005, 03:37 PM
I have been using PSB as a moderately compressed filler under RCBS 180FNGC (actually about 197 checked and lubed). This bullet does sit well below the neck. It is one cartridge that I can see a marked difference in accuracy using PSB. Groups shrank from 4-5" to 1.5" @100. I have not had such identifiable results as yet with other cartridges and calibres and co-incidentally those other cases all have long enough necks to protect the side and base of the bullets. You might want to play with this or other filler that is compatible with the type of case.

26Charlie
07-09-2005, 10:02 PM
Stocker,
That is indeed a worthwhile improvement. I have that mould also. What was your load, and what rifle are you shooting it in? Scope or iron sights?

Depreacher
07-09-2005, 11:09 PM
My 311291 is a double cav Lyman. Gas check is "in the fire" also when loaded in my 30-06 03A3. I believe this was a 1905 design (maybe no gas check at first), for the 30-40 Krag and 30-03. Maybe the case neck was longer on these to accomodate the grease grooves. Then again, with only 3 brain cells left, what do I know???? I use mine over 19 gr. 4759 (hate that powder, but got to use it up) for a mild accurate load in my 03-A3 2 groove. 4759 is VERY position sensitive. Castboolitpreacher

stocker
07-10-2005, 12:09 AM
26Charlie: Load was WLR primer, 38 grs. IMR 4831 plus enough PSB on top to reach base of the neck. Mild crunchy feel when you seat the boolit. I thought I'd recorded the weight of PSB but can't locate it. 8 grains of PSB rings a bell but not certain as I've been playing with it in a few different cases and may be confusing that with a load using H4831 in a 348. Maybe on the ammo box which is out in the truck (I hope, although it's not difficult to rework). Oven hardened W/W. Velocity rose to over 1825 with this combo which makes a pretty good hunting load. Only about 1725 without PSB. I have to try it with unhardened bullets yet and if accuracy holds I'll be a happy camper as I prefer them for hunting. Moderate pressure indications. May bump the charge a grain or two and see what occurs.

Rifle is a early 50's 99EG (untapped) that wears a Lyman micrometer and a Lyman tube on the front. Also tested it in my early scoped 99F 300 with similar good groups. Velocity just under 1800 with the shorter barrel.

I've also got some loaded up with 3031 but haven't tested them yet. As PSB is used compressed add the weight of PSB to the bullet weight as a guideline for loads.

Chargar has played with PSB quite a bit I think, perhaps he has something to offer on it's use.

StarMetal
07-10-2005, 12:14 AM
stocker

That sounds like a really good load. I like that slow powder with a heavy bullet. I hope it holds up with unhardened bullet and I think it will. All you need is one shot, it should be able to handle that.

Joe

floodgate
07-10-2005, 01:08 AM
[QUOTE=Castboolitpreacher]My 311291 is a double cav Lyman. Gas check is "in the fire" also when loaded in my 30-06 03A3. I believe this was a 1905 design (maybe no gas check at first), for the 30-40 Krag and 30-03. QUOTE]

Preacher: From my delving into the old Ideal Handbooks, I find that #311291 (initially listed as #308291, but recommended to be sized .311") was actually introduced in 1906, in Handbook #16, for the .30-30 WCF and the .303 Savage, at 165 grs. It was the second gas-check design Ideal offered, the first being #308284, 205 grs., for the Krag. Interestingly, both were offered (as were several other designs of the period) with a separate mould to make a pure-lead soft tip, which was then dropped into the main mould and bonded to the harder alloy body. I was fortunate enough to find one of the #308291-TIP moulds on eBay, and a friend gave me the matching full-size #308291 mould; both were made during the period (1910 - 1916) when Marlin owned and operated Ideal, as shown by the boxes they came in. I've gotta find - or MAKE - the time to cast up some of these for my .303. and load them with my old Ideal No. 3 Special tong tool. floodgate

stocker
07-10-2005, 01:10 AM
Starmetal:

I'm finding the slow burners have a lot to offer for hunting level loads. The 4831's and Re 19 have done quite well with heavy cast bullets in a few rifles. We don't have much available in surplus powders like you gents do. Sure would be nice to reduce the costs of powder which runs 30-45 bucks a can up here depending on maker. How I miss the days back in the early 60's when we could drive to Jaegers in Bellingham and pick up surplus 4831 in paper bags or small drums as you preferred and priced under a dollar a pound even one pound at a time.. If we tried that now we would end up in in the calaboose for a year while both countries tried to decide if we were terrorists----Honest sir, I'm just a recreational shooter and hunter. Why don't you believe me???? Well actually sir, 50 pounds of powder isn't all that much is it??? I plan to share it around you know. At which point they start thinking of multiple suicide bombers and the door slams for even longer.

However I got a laugh when Felix I think it was suggested not using 5744 in favor of a cheaper surplus powder for a load I mentioned. It's all expensive here.

Mel-4857
07-10-2005, 07:46 PM
Hi Stocker,Being a fellow Canuck I can sympathize about powder. But there is some hope:Higginson Powder in Hawkesbury ,Ontario sells surplus plus IMR and Hogdon powders. 21 lbs or over delivery is free just the Hazmat fee $15.00. If you e-mail him at www.higginsonpowders.com he'll e-mail you a pricelist. Real nice to deal with. Best prices on Lee products around . Our club gets together and bulk orders for powder. Regards,Mel

stocker
07-10-2005, 08:26 PM
Mel:

Thank you for that.

Depreacher
07-11-2005, 08:26 AM
Hello floodgate, You are 100% correct!!! With nothing to do at 6:00 am today I decided to look in my 1982 Cast Boolit publication by Col. E.H. Harrison (NRA book). On page 13 upper left column, I discovered my mistake. Col. Harrison said it was originally 308291 with a gas check for the 30-30 WCF. He says it was advertised at the end of 1905, but going with 1906 is fine with me. When discovering my goof-up this morning I decided to confess my sin before all the lead brethren before one caught me red-handed. But when clicking onto the thread I saw your reply and realized I had indeed been caught by a knowledgeable, eagle eyed reader. THANK YOU for the reply and I shall thus research my replys better before I make another "guess" from off the top of my head (with all 3 brain cells operating at max capacity). Have a good one; Castboolitpreacher

floodgate
07-11-2005, 12:11 PM
Preacher: Wellll... maybe 98%. As to the date, the Handbooks from that period are un-dated, so we have to guess from the ads, testimonials, etc.; as a result, the dates are good to only +/- a year. floodgate

stocker
07-11-2005, 03:04 PM
Guys: Please note that I have edited my original load data that I posted. Correct load is 38 grains IMR 4831, not 28. Either a mis-struck key or a brain f$&t, but I didn't spot the error until today.
Sorry.

26Charlie
07-13-2005, 06:08 PM
The Fouling Shot (Cast Bullet Assn Journal) reprinted an article on the 311291, by Frank Marshall, and he says that the 311291 is designed to snug right in to the throat of the .30-30. I knew this from having a single cavity mould for it back forty years ago. SO- I drove the pins back on the 4-cavity mould, and took a diamond hone to the face of the blocks around the pin holes. Sure enough, there was a little peening on both halves which the diamond hone took off, to make the block faces flat again. I reset the pins, cast a few hundred more bullets, and loaded one sample in the .30-30, crimping as intended in the crimp groove. It will now chamber in the Win M94 and (old pre-microgroove) Marlin M336 with just kissing the rifling enough to put rub marks on the nose of the bullet.

Thanks all for the info above. I will write up the results with the .30-30's when I do the tests - I am not just doing one load, I am trying to find one suitable load for several rifles, so am trying different loads of different powders. Meanwhile I loaded up 100 of the originally mentioned load for the .300 Savage, to have on hand in case I can get to the next cast bullet silhouette match.

fiberoptik
07-15-2005, 03:51 AM
What's PSB?? Dummies (I mean newbies) need to know...

stocker
07-15-2005, 10:57 AM
PSB is precision spherical buffer available from Precision Reloading. Usually used as a buffer for shot shell loads around the pellets.

As I just finished reloading 50 rounds I can now tell you the amount of PSB used was 4-5 grains per case. WW cases need a bit more than RP cases due to larger internal volume.

Initially I set an old pistol powder measure for measuring this stuff, but any spillage creates a very slippery bench top. I'm gradually acquiring a bunch of home made dippers made from shortened cartridge cases with a handle soldered on. Mark each one's dip weight with an electric pencil for reference. Seems to work with less spillage (leak by) than the powder measure did.

Will be testing some unhardened boolits this time for comparison.

stocker
09-17-2005, 05:02 PM
I finally got to the range with the 300 yesterday to try the unhardened W/W bullets.

I actually increased the charge by 1 grain and also by 2 grains (39/IMR4831 and 40 /IMR4831) . Also had some of the original 38 /IMR4831 loads with the oven hard bullets to run as a comparison.

The new loads used 4.0 grains and 3.8 grains of PSB as a filler respectively. I have found this filler runs through my standard powder measure very smoothly and is more accurate than using dippers by the way.

The 40 grain load is approaching max as the primers were flattening a bit but it was not a problem in terms of extraction or case head expansion.

As the load increased from the original sight in with 38 grains, each one grain increase raised the group 1/2" and also moved the group 1 in. right (2 inches right for the 40 grain load, 1 inch higher). Easy to compensate for with the micrometer receiver sight.

5 shot groups from all three loads remained at very near 1.5" at 75 yards. The softer bullets shot equally as well as the hardened. Starmetal had that right in his post.

My Chrony has packed it in so no velocity available. I certainly will be using the softer bullet for deer hunting though as a result of this testing.

Char-Gar
09-20-2005, 11:22 PM
Stocker...I have been using PSB for a couple of years and have found it to improve several loads in a very dramatic way. I use Lee dippers to add the PSB on top. I have found that 1cc weights 1 grain. I have used PSB to top off loads with 4759, 3031, 4895 and WC872. My rule of thumb is top off powders charges that occupy 65-70% of case capacity. I would not use it with small charges of fast powder.

I like 4759 is the 45-70 and have had good luck seperating the powder and PSB with a card wad. It is probably not a real world worry, but I get concerned about the PSB filtering into the powder over time, with large grain stick powders.

stocker
09-21-2005, 12:22 AM
I believe you and I had some correspondence about PSB over a year ago. It seems to work well with short necked cases or with long bullets that seat below the bottom of the neck. It appeared to do nothing for my 30WCF which has a relatively long neck. I've mainly used it over 4831 or Re 19 for higher power hunting loads. Have not played with it all for mid range loads. That sounds like a good plan using a separator wad in the 45/70 or any other where the PSB has enough volume to cause blips if it migrates. I would think a milk carton disc would do the trick without problems provided there is some load compression.
I've just finished loading a few up in 30-06 using an old 311299 Ideal single cavity that was given to me. Curious to see how that bullet will shoot on the range. Weight is about 210 with lube and check.

Best