coal fired generation down?

[Y2K]

Normally I see train after train hauling coal from Wyo. to wherever. The last few days, I haven't seen a single full train moving and only a couple of empties. I have it on good authority that the trains are parked and the mines shut down--doing only maintenance/repair work. Has our "wonderful" government shut down the coal fired units in response to GLOBAL WARMING and air quality pressures? If so, what are people going to do in just a few weeks about running A/C and electric cars, etc., when it warms up? Not to completely fall for the conspiracy theories, but this looks to be very scary as I fail to see enough wind and solar generation capacity. Can someone help educate me as to what is going on--not finding anything with a quick search of the web.

[Rex]

I bet you money there aren't a one shut down except for spring maintenance. I worked in the industry for 33 years.

[Y2K]

I can understand the spring shutdown, but don't remember the trains being non-existant on the tracks and/or parked. Main reason I notice is I work next to a mainline and it's awfully quiet.

[Sasquatch-1]

Considering that the power for Capitol Hill (Federal Government Buildings) comes from a coal fired plant, I doubt that they have completely shut them down. But then again, what's good for the goose is not always good for the gander.

[Wots]

Here in chicago they recently shut down coal fired State Line Generating Plant (515 megawatts) with two other slated for shutdown within the next few years. All in the name of environmental concerns.

Then take into consideration the aging nuclear plants...........................


I would love to see "there" faces when we start having brown outs, rolling black outs, etc



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Line_Generating_Plant

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-05-02/news/chi-midwest-generation-to-close-2-chicago-coal-plants-20120502_1_fisk-and-crawford-coal-plants-environmental-groups

[tomme boy]

They are switching some of them over to natural gas. From what I have been told, it is only taking them around 30 days to switch once the gas line has been run to the plants.

Get ready for your bills to triple.

[runfiverun]

wooo hoooo i'll be back at work if they start using natural gas for that.
i'll have to build a coal fired steam car to go anywhere though.

[Castaholic]

There was an article a couple weeks ago (unfortunately I can't find it again so take what I am saying with a grain of salt) and it was talking about the new EPA regulations on new coal power plants. Apparently the emission standards on new coal power plants were so high that it is impossible to be profitable. Old plants would be grandfathered in but eventually would need to be replaced and it wouldn't make sense to make another so they would eventually be phased out. Not really a stretch given what the president has said in the past. It's not the whole equation but might shed some insight.

[wallenba]

Probably just lower demands as the weather warms up. We still use coal as well as limited nuke power in S.E. Michigan. Ships bring ours in though, from Deluth Minn..

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Category:Existing_coal_plants_in_M ichigan

[oneokie]

Have a relative that is a job superintendent for a company that retrofits the new air scrubbers at coal fired plants. He has been working on jobs on the east coast for 4 years now.

The local to me coal fired plant recently installed a second generator, and a new transmission line has been constructed.

[rockrat]

Saw a nice long coal train yesterday going thru Glenwood Canyon

[HodakaGA]

Probably related to much of the country having a milder than normal winter so they didn't hit their stockpiles as much as normal. Couple that with normal reduced needs in spring. The coal mines can shut down and do their mantainance.

[Beau Cassidy]

Friend of mine in the coal industry support business say their orders have plummeted. Obama Bin Ladin is doing is best to shut the coal industry down. Most coal fired plants are being converted to what is called combined fuel or something like that. Basically it is a propane fired jet that heats water from the exhaust and from the heat radiating off of it. Much cleaner but at the sacrifice of the coal industry.

[Rex]

Low "mild weather" demands make spring and fall a good time for maintenance outages. Seems I have heard that the rail lines also ask plants out in our area to stock pile so they could do some track maintenance also. The plant I retired from with two 650 MW units is installing scrubbers. Many plants are also converting to low sulpher western coal as opposed to high sulpher eastern coal. Our coal all came from Wyoming as it is low sulpher coal and they seem to be shipping it a long way east now.
I grew up on a farm in western Kansas and we never got electricity there until the mid '50s, I guarantee you they ain't going back there for the environment or anything else.

[wv109323]

In West Virginia, The slow down is due to the mild winter we had. The power plants did not consume as much coal as a normal winter thus they are "overstocked" with coal. Power Plants normally like a 60 day supply of coal and many are at 90-120 days supply. They simply quit ordering coal from the mines when their stockpiles get that big and burn down their stockpile.
Coal fired powder plants can not keep an infinite supply of coal on hand due to spontaneous combustion. They must limit the amount/time of coal stored or it will catch on fire.
Most Natural Gas fired plants in this area are "peak" plants. The natural gas fired plants can be brought on line ( and taken off line)in a matter of minutes. That makes them ideal to meet power demand over short periods of time. Power demand peaks at 2p.m. to 5 p.m. during hot days because everyone's air conditionor is running and on cold winter nights at 1 a.m. to 5a.m. when everyone's heater is on. These peaks are met with the natural gas fired plants in my local area.
The units in my area are a turbine engine directly turning a generator. I don't know the kilowats of each unit but they are no larger than 20'by 20 ' and some 15 to 20 units per site. They are located near a coal fired unit so that they can share the power grid.

[41 mag fan]

Ok heres the low down...coming from someone who works 500' under ground in the coal industry.
Right now...the biggest thing is we've had across the board a very mild winter.
With the mild winter, less used.
Plus the 2nd biggie...obamas EPA regs and MSHA regs are very strict, not only on coal plants, but on coal mines too. The new regs will drive alot of mines out of business.
Which thats fine, the power plants need to put on scrubbers because coal is very dirty. But even the new ones dont get the air "clean". And coal mines...some will risk a miners life for a nugget of coal.
Another really big factor is it's cheaper to burn natural gas right now over coal. So alot of plants are switching over.
And another thing, that is really hurting my job field, is with the recession in Europe, and everything slowing down, people are conserving, using less, buying less, which makes the stock pile grow.
With the mild winter and spring we've had, the coal piles at the power plants are at near max volume allowed by law. The power plant just 8-9mi from my house, has 4million tons on the ground in the stock yard, law requires 1million tons at all times minimum. They're only burning about 1/3 of all train cars we send them
Plus another thing, what you see as a slow down in things like the coal trains, is because some like my employer..Peabody, will move coal from other regions to supply another.

But if we get a hot summer, it'll take a couple of months to come back to full tilt again.
For 6 yrs I've basically worked 6days/wk. 1 long weekend off per mo.
Back in Feb they announced we were going on 5 day work weeks, slated for the rest of the yr.
Keep your a/c's off please. i'm liking my 5 day workweeks.
After actually experiencing what it's like to have a semblance of a normal life again, i'm really considering a career change, even if it means taking a paycut

Hope my rambling here kind of put a perspective on everything.....

[runfiverun]

the price of natural gas has also plummeted.
it will normally follow oil up and down but starting about 2 years ago it didn't follow the oil price when it went up from 77 dollars to 100 dollars.
the wells that were slated to be finished were but they now have no where to send it.
they built a pipeline from wyoming back east hoping to get people to switch over to natural gas,but they couldn't afford to run the system they have much less upgrade.
western wyomings economy is built on natural gas and coal production well,well over 50% of some towns income is from these two economies.

[Char-Gar]

My Daughter is the Public Relation person for a major power generating corporation that covers several states. She is fuming about the new EPA regulations on the transportation and use of coal to generate electricity. Her company has a number of coal fired plants plus a nuke or two. She tells me that folks can expect to see power rates increase by 1/3 to 1/2 in the next couple of years.

This will be a disaster for everybody in American and send an already shaky economy into a tailsping. All, but a few folks noticed this when it happened. Folks were so spun up about Obamacare this slipped by under the radar.

[waksupi]

During Obama's campaign, he said he would make it too expensive for coal companies to do business, and put them under.

[odfairfaxsub]

we are going to close on plant down in its intirity in chesepeake va. we have i think 3 units in yorktown that 1 is going to be a permanent nat gas conversion another one will be a temp gas one and the coal unit will be shut down. 1st energy i believe is making tons of coal shutdowns.

[Lee]

"During Obama's campaign, he said he would make it too expensive for coal companies to do business, and put them under. "


Yep, and the Dude is doing it. He don't care. From Kenya, it's always hot in the winter.

Here in Okhio, they ran coal plants, stated they would shut down coal plants, got told by Intergrid associations that would jeopardise delivery, and now are sayin' that coal is OK for the short term. The weasels also offered to convert to gas, and stated "YOUR BILLS WILL DOUBLE" Of course the Okhio PUCO (pronounced "PUKE --- O ___) is in the back pocket of the utility company, so guess how this is gonna play out.
Oh and by the way. After encouraging, and shystering everyone into CFL's (Google the Ohio Stunt Power Companies if you need more info, including their offer of "Free CFL's", second only to the Chicago machine business model), they now state they need to raise their rates to generate their comfortable revenue level because people are saving energy. So you pay the same amount to use less energy. I think that's why you never bump into one of these weasels in a local bar. Even their handlers know they would be on the wrong end of that stick!!!
It's coming folks, and these weasels don't even realize it..................;)

[MtGun44]

Natural gas prices are way down due to lots of supply coming on line from fracking.
I've heard that they are 1/4th of what they had been, but don't know if this is true.

You can run the same plant with fewer emission controls and cheaper fuel on natural
gas. Simple economics.

The price of coal will need to drop to match the nat gas price on a per BTU delivered
basis, with a kicker for the emissions costs and very expensive transportation.
Sorry if you are in the coal business or in a coal state, but coal is just BTUs on the hoof
and it has to compete. Suddenly, nat gas (easily shipped by pipeline) is abundant and
cheap, and the railroads are still playing unpleasant games with the shipping costs of
coal, plus it is just plain HEAVY.

Bill

[Jammer Six]

Talk about jumping to conclusions...

It's May.

[41 mag fan]

Natural gas prices are way down due to lots of supply coming on line from fracking.
I've heard that they are 1/4th of what they had been, but don't know if this is true.

You can run the same plant with fewer emission controls and cheaper fuel on natural
gas. Simple economics.

The price of coal will need to drop to match the nat gas price on a per BTU delivered
basis, with a kicker for the emissions costs and very expensive transportation.
Sorry if you are in the coal business or in a coal state, but coal is just BTUs on the hoof
and it has to compete. Suddenly, nat gas (easily shipped by pipeline) is abundant and
cheap, and the railroads are still playing unpleasant games with the shipping costs of
coal, plus it is just plain HEAVY.

Bill

Coal is way down, has been sliding on price for over 7-8 months now. The demand is less, so the price is less.
Usually coal follows oil on prices, but this isn't the case right now.
As soon as the wholesale bulk gas thats brought here, I believe from countries like Venezuela stops, then the price will go up here. Plus fracking has become big business, thats helping to keep the prices down on natural gas, and helping to drive down coal prices too.
I'll know the exact amount tomorrow, but I believe from the little I listen to in our monthly meetings, the price on the open market has slid like 30% from what the price was 8mo to a yr ago, as of last months meeting.

Supply and demand of economics will catch up to the wholesale prices of natural gas. right now everyones switching from power plants from coal to gas, to new houses being built are going back to gas furnaces, to used houses replacing furnaces from total electric to gas.
thats one thing, I learned 6 yrs ago when I went into the mines. During my required 32 hr MSHA training, the instructor told me, if you are looking for a stable secure job, the mines are not the place to be. It's a very unstable market, and mines come and mines go just as quick as the market swings.

[WILCO]

During Obama's campaign, he said he would make it too expensive for coal companies to do business, and put them under.

He's keeping that campaign promise!

[EDK]

When dies the coal mine/railroad vacation start? When I worked in power plants here is Missouri, they had a two week stretch where we did not get trains in...or is this no longer occurring? Labadie MO has four 600+ megawatt units and their coal delivery was staggered so as to keep stocked without having to push coal out to the storage pile or back in to use.

I drive across Nebraska to attend the Quigley rifle shoot in Forsyth Montana and see a lot of familiar looking coal cars as I follow Highway 2.

It's wierd for coal fired plants with 100 miles of Illinois mines to be burning Powder River Basin coal that has been transported over 1000 miles. They spent a lot of money on the scrubbers, etc over the years I worked at Labadie.

:redneck::cbpour::guntootsmiley:

[41 mag fan]

Powder river basin coal is a very low quality of coal. It's like burning dirt. Peabody ships from their Powder River mine out in Wy to a power plant in Jasper County IL, Newton power plant, or whatever the name is now. It changes like I do my underwear.
I just happen to know this from a personal friend of mine that works there.
But being a lower quality BTU coal, it's cheap and can be blended with higher BTU coal to meet EPA standards esp on sulfur content
We don't do a 2 week shut down at any of the mines I've worked at, nor does any Peabody owns in Il either.
We have a coal mine about 5 min from me, Alliant Coal, they shut down for 2 weeks in June or July and a week over Christmas.

Alot of coal gasification plants were being built up until the price of natural gas dropped. If that continues and they keep building the coal gasification plants, then the market will open up and boom again.
But with methane at an all time low, those plants are being put on hold for now.

One thing though that just burns the butts of us coal miners, is you hear the coal companies cry and whine they're making no money, but like stated thewy can ship coal by train 1000 mi, so they must be making something off of it. They wouldn't sell or produce at breaking even costs or sales.

[GabbyM]

They just built a huge NG pipeline down route 36 here in Illinois. I think it runs all the way to the new fracking fields then way out East at least to Ohio. Don’t know if it’s online yet but if it is that has to make a dent in coal shipments to the regions the pipeline services. I’d think it would start cutting into the home heating oil market in short order. However it’s a big undertaking to run gas lines in established urban areas.

[bob208]

well the o said he would break the coal states. and pa. still voted form him.
i heat my house with coal. had trouble getting it last year. was told most was being sold to china.

[Lloyd Smale]

I worked at a generating stattion that had 9 units. 3 were designed to run on that poor western coal. It was done by pulverizing and blowing it in. they found they had so much problems with clinkers in the ash and plugged up everything and that it was so ineffiient that it just didnt pay to have to differnt types of coal on site so they just ran eastern coal in all of them after a couple years. Funny thing is our power plant was dependant on a mine and it wasnt a coal mine. We supplied power to the local iron ore mines and they to have slowed down production. We had 9 units there. Two 40 megawatt and 7 90s. the reason so many small units was two fold. First they added units as the mines grew in the area and second the mines wanted us to be reliable so even if two units were down they would still get plenty of power. Right now units 1 through 4 are shut down. They said its just to expensive to upgrade the emissions equiptment on them to get them up to standards and demand is off two as one of the new 90s has been sitting idle for about a year now. When i worked there all 9 units were ran wide open and if a unit wasnt putting out youd best have a reason why! I guess my main point in all of this is im sure as emmission standards go up the demand for western coal has gone down. Its just so much easier to get eastern coal to meat emmisions and im sure its cheaper to buy eastern then put millions into the plant trying to clean up the emissions and im betting alot of the lack of shipments your seeing is due to the fact that we were not the only power company that figured it was cheaper in the long run to run eastern coal.
Powder river basin coal is a very low quality of coal. It's like burning dirt. Peabody ships from their Powder River mine out in Wy to a power plant in Jasper County IL, Newton power plant, or whatever the name is now. It changes like I do my underwear.
I just happen to know this from a personal friend of mine that works there.
But being a lower quality BTU coal, it's cheap and can be blended with higher BTU coal to meet EPA standards esp on sulfur content
We don't do a 2 week shut down at any of the mines I've worked at, nor does any Peabody owns in Il either.
We have a coal mine about 5 min from me, Alliant Coal, they shut down for 2 weeks in June or July and a week over Christmas.

Alot of coal gasification plants were being built up until the price of natural gas dropped. If that continues and they keep building the coal gasification plants, then the market will open up and boom again.
But with methane at an all time low, those plants are being put on hold for now.

One thing though that just burns the butts of us coal miners, is you hear the coal companies cry and whine they're making no money, but like stated thewy can ship coal by train 1000 mi, so they must be making something off of it. They wouldn't sell or produce at breaking even costs or sales.

[pipehand]

Real story is that it is cheaper for power companies to buy power from the grid that is generated with HRSG ( heat recovery steam generation) using Natural Gas, than they can make their own power using coal. All the coalburners in my area have huge stockpiles of coal. Simply market forces at work, no great conspiracy. Although there are some who say that the natural gas prices are unnaturally manipulated to be this low at the moment. Same thing happened about a dozen years ago, and a big ad campaign to swith to gas. Lotsa people switched, and then the price tripled.

[Linstrum]

On March 23 I was between Tuba City and Kayenta, Arizona, parked by the Black Mesa coal mine railroad tracks enjoying the fantastic scenery just south of Monument Valley. A fully loaded coal train went by, so as of six weeks ago the coal-fired power generating station there was in full production. Kind of interesting, that particular railroad uses electric locomotives.

rl 1121

[Wots]

Now here is a "suprise".................................................. ....

Coal plant closures could send electricity costs soaring Results of energy auction would affect 2015 prices.

The price of electricity could spike in 2015 because of the number of coal plants closing. (May 17, 2012)
By Julie Wernau, Chicago Tribune reporter 5:52 p.m. CDT, May 17, 2012
Residential electricity prices are expected to spike by more than 10 percent beginning in 2015, with consumers paying between $150 and $330 a year more than this year, as coal plants, the least expensive producers of electricity, continue to close.
Analysts who follow electricity pricing will have a firmer idea Friday of how much consumers' bills will go up. It's the day the agency that manages the electric grid, known as the PJM Interconnection, will announce the results of an annual auction that reserves power three years in advance.
Think of the agency as a middleman that chooses the lowest-cost mix of power from bids offered by electricity producers fueled by coal, nuclear, wind, solar or natural gas, among others.
Winners walk away with lucrative "capacity payments," paid by consumers in their electricity bills as an incentive to invest in plants and keep them running. Losers face the prospect of shutting down. Auction results are scheduled to be released Friday afternoon.
Operators of coal-fueled plants, coal being inexpensive and abundant, emerged as big winners in the past. But this year promises to be different.
"Coal plants close, and capacity prices go up," said Travis Miller, director of utilities research at Chicago-based Morningstar. "The environmental regulations coming out of Washington right now, we think, will have a big impact on the prices realized on Friday and, ultimately, consumers' electricity bills."
This year's auction is to reserve power for 2015-2016, a federal deadline by which coal plant operators must comply with environmental rules or shut down. About 35 percent of electricity generation in this market is produced by burning coal, but 45 percent of those coal plants haven't installed pollution controls to meet regulations, according to a Goldman Sachs analysis.
That means the outmoded plants will either bid high, hoping for capacity payments that will be generous enough to cover the cost of environmental controls, analysts say, or these coal plant operators won't bid at all, making room for more expensive generators.
"Last year's auction saw a lot of new, clean generators stepping up to fill the gap left by the old dirties," said Becky Stanfield, senior energy advocate at the Natural Resources Defense Council. "This is exactly what should happen in a well-functioning market."
The implications of the auction can be illustrated by the expected jump between this year's prices and those expected for 2015. In June, consumers will pay power plant operators $16 per megawatt-day in capacity payments based on the results of an auction held three years ago. (A megawatt-day is about equivalent to the amount of electricity used by 330 homes in 24 hours.)
Miller predicts that number will jump to $140-$180 per MW-day in Friday's auction. Goldman Sachs analysts estimate even higher figures, $220-$300 per MW-day in 2015, or 14 times to 19 times this year's prices and roughly double the results of last year's auction. Consumers pay the capacity charges regardless of who provides their electricity.
There are unknowns, however, that could help lessen any impact on consumers. In addition to the capacity payments, bills reflect the cost of electricity itself. Low demand for electricity and low natural gas prices have recently driven down electricity prices. It's not known whether those factors will come into play in 2015.
There is an upside in coal plant closings, environmental and health advocates say. Fewer dirty coal plants will save millions of dollars each year in lower health care costs, they say.
"The real cost of dirty energy isn't reflected in your electricity bill. That doesn't account for the massive hit to the economy associated with heart disease, asthma attacks and hospital stays. The transition to cleaner energy is worth a lot in human or monetary terms; we are talking about health benefits that the EPA puts at upwards of $18 billion in Illinois alone," Stanfield said.
Midwest Generation's Fisk and Crawford coal plants in Chicago are slated to close by September, and Ameren Energy Resources has threatened to close its coal plants if it doesn't receive an extension to clean them up.
The closings of 319 coal-fueled generating units totaling 42,895 megawatts, about 13 percent of the nation's coal fleet, have been announced nationwide since January 2010, according to the Sierra Club.
Last year's auction for 2014-2015 was the first to see the impact of closing coal plants. Figuring in additional costs of scrubbers and other environmental upgrades for 2015, many coal-fired plant operators bid too high and found themselves out of a job. Capacity prices spiked to $126 per megawatt-day.
At least one power plant developer hopes the results of this year's power auction will work in its favor. Nebraska-based Tenaska Inc., which is seeking to build a natural gas-powered generating plant in central Illinois, is trying to strike a deal with the state Legislature to get its plant built.
Tenaska, which wants legislators to force electricity customers to buy the power the new plant would create, has argued that its plant would add new low-cost fuel to the market that can be bid in to the annual capacity auction.
"Adding 600 megawatts of supply to that auction could have a very dramatic effect," said Bart Ford, a Tenaska vice president.
Tenaska estimates that adding its natural gas plant to the generating mix would shave between 13 and 21 percent off capacity prices from 2014-2016 in the Commonwealth Edison territory.
Tenaska says its plant would save consumers an estimated $437.7 million over 20 years, including more than $250.6 million in the plant's first five years, by adding supply as the market tightens.
A group of businesses and environmental groups that calls itself the STOP Coalition has called Tenaska's proposed Taylorville project a "bad deal for Illinois."
"Illinois consumers would pay higher electricity rates and give a giant subsidy to a private, out-of-state company for unneeded electric power. ... We will continue to press lawmakers to reject this costly, unnecessary giveaway," the coalition said in a statement.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-0517-rate-shock-20120517,0,5649803.story

[oldred]

i heat my house with coal. had trouble getting it last year. was told most was being sold to china.



When I read that I laughed and thought "someone's yanking your chain" because China is a huge producer of cheaply produced coal and there's no possible way they would buy at our production costs plus pay for the shipping. But before spouting off about it I did a bit of quick research and surprising as it is US coal is being exported to China, a lot of it! This is actually good however and I hope they increase their imports, it may be a big boost to the coal mines and at the same time help out with the trade imbalance, it's good to see loaded ships going in that direction for a change instead of coming this way. Seems like everything we buy these days and the stinkin box it comes in is "Made in China"!

[MtGun44]

I heard from a reliable source a few years ago that China was completeing a new
megapowerplant every 2 weeks or 3 weeks and that they were a huge part of the cost
of copper going through the roof as they wire their country for electricity and built power
grids and power plants. It makes sense that they would need a fuel for all those power
plants. As they move from the medival living that the majority of Chinese had 20 yrs ago
into the 20th century (no typo) they will need a LOT of power and a power grid. It will not
be completed in a year or two.

They have abour 4 or 5 times our population and need to provide power for them. They
need to buy 3-5 times as much copper as we have bought in the entire 20th century over
the next 10-20 years. I'd think copper mining would be a really solid business to be in
for the next qtr or half a century at least.

Bill

[Superfly]

Time to put a small windmill to help pay back the electric bill? Wonder if it would pay off in the end ? I do have lots of free wind and a tower.

[41 mag fan]

Bush started the new scrubbers being required on coal plants.
Which is hunkey dorey, except it didn't claen up everything like it should have.
Cleaning up the environment is good, even if it means I'll be out of a job.
I just think the gov't needs to at their expense retrain us coal miners to go into a field of equal monetary value.
One thought though on the article Wots posted. What's going to happen when the general populace cannot afford to pay their electric bill?
Be a whole lot of woodburners being sold over next few years

[pipehand]

Not to worry, 41 Mag Fan. The plant we're commissioning is due to fire on coal next month. 900 Megawatts of cutting edge clean coal technology. BTW, part of the reason the power companies don't put all their eggs in one basket is not to keep down coal production. The coal is pretty reasonable, but sometimes the railroad gets a little uppity, and transport costs for coal are a lot higher than for gas through a pipeline.

[GabbyM]

As I’m sure Bill is aware:
China has gutted the big copper mine in Arizona owned by a Mexican cartel a few years ago. Then they bought a mountain in South America on the Pacific coast. Hence they are loading that mountain onto oar ships to China for smelting as SA has not enough energy to smelt a mountain. That does not bother me a bit. However China is not paying high price for copper. They gutted ours on the cheep then went to SA and bought a mountain of copper for a penance. We the chumps are left with high prices again. Plus that’s not even the tip of that iceberg. We all know it and we are all tired of it.

[GabbyM]

Bush started the new scrubbers being required on coal plants.
Which is hunkey dorey, except it didn't claen up everything like it should have.
Cleaning up the environment is good, even if it means I'll be out of a job.
I just think the gov't needs to at their expense retrain us coal miners to go into a field of equal monetary value.
One thought though on the article Wots posted. What's going to happen when the general populace cannot afford to pay their electric bill?
Be a whole lot of woodburners being sold over next few years

When Bush two took office I was making 3$ more an hour than I am now as a machinist. My jobs, and note jobs not job, went directly to China to his and all Democrat and Republicans alike total delight. UAW is all up in this job exodus as it brings on the collapse of our economy and as the UAW , AFL-CIO are run by card carrying Communist they want nothing more than to bring us down so they can rebuild this nation into there Communist utopia. About five years ago the president of AFL-CIO personally signed off on my being fired form Caterpillar Tractor Company. That probably took five minutes from his life. He is a Communist party member as are a majority of the board. Just look that one up if you like. Some of the many post I made on this very forum calling him a Communist is exactly why I lost my job. In the mean time China is crushing us.
See this site and many others for a start.
http://www.dickmorris.com/

[Jammer Six]

My jobs, and note jobs not job, went directly to China ...

They were not your jobs, they were (and are) jobs.

You held them for as long as you were able.

I have no idea where employees get this entitlement mentality.

[1Shirt]

Obozo promised to shut down the coal industry! Just one promise (at the expense of the country) that he is keeping.
1Shirt!

[wv109323]

Let me add a note. Here in southern WV I have never seen so many empty railroad coal cars. Coal sales for power production and it's other uses are at very low demand levels thus the coal cars that would be transporting coal to customers are setting empty.
I have never seen this many cars setting on side tracks. Again the mild winter and Washington are having their affect.

[Wots]

Along these lines.........The last two coal fired generating stations here in chicago closed down this week. Just wait for it. In a couple of years when electric rates start to sky rocket, what will the green crowd have to say.........................................

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-08-30/business/chi-closure-of-chicagos-crawford-fisk-electric-plants-ends-coal-era-20120830_1_fisk-and-crawford-midwest-generation-coal-plants

[Blammer]

hmm, maybe coal will be available to help heat my home.

May have to look at a coal fired stove. :)

when rolling black outs start to become common, the business that rely on electricity will cry for the coal plants to start again.

[MtGun44]

Many coal mines, once closed and the pumping stops, can never be re-opened. This
is not a joke. This is killing the coal industry, even if reversed soon, it will have a great
deal of difficulty coming back.

Bill

[Bad Water Bill]

What will happen when you get your RATION CARD. All computers shut down as well as cell phones,and all related teckie stuff. Forget your deep freeze,micro wave ,TV,space heater and electric blankets.

If your home is heated with electricity just walk away from it as you will never sell the thing.

You will be lucky to be ALLOWED enough electricity to power up your twisty lights but not enough to run the blower motor on your furnace.

Yes hard times could be just around the corner,

[popper]

EPA is shutting down coal, with Commifonia and BO support. Coal is much less $$/MWH than atomic or gas. Plants are willing to put the $$ in to clean up, but EPA writes the rules so it is near impossible. Wait till they see the dead environment around the gas fired plants. East Texas coal generation is all but stopped. Battery recycling plant kicked out of town. Barnett shale isn't wanted by the soccer moms as it might poison their kids, like they and TV haven't already. We are selling and shipping coal and shale gas to China, Canada will build a deep sea port to shell shale oil to china. BO doesn't want the south (past Illinois area generating plant) pipeline built, but northern part is OK.

[MtGun44]

Obama promised to put coal out of business and he is doing it. We will all have
less electricity and pay more for it. I cannot believe the folks that voted to
have this.

I hope we can turn this around before too many mines are lost.

Bill

[wire nut]

I live in the center of East kentucky mining. I work for our power company that generates electricity with coal. The coal business is less than half of what it used to be. The power co. will probably just shut down our generation rather than convert to natural gas. This is a 1060 mega watt plant. This plant burns on the average of 2.5 million tons of coal per year. according to reports gas doesn,t produce enough btu,s to convert coal steam generation to gas. Burning enough gas to equal coal Btu,s puts ut the same amount of polution as coal

[Firebricker]

What's really scary is the fact he might get in again. If he gets four more your he'll completely destroy the coal industry. Even worse is the amount of people just from this site that that is going to hurt not to mention the rest of the country. FB

[wire nut]

The president of the company I work for and I have devoloped a slight friendship due to that he has started Deer and Turkey hunting. He told me he had a 15 minute talk with lisa jackson about coal and the EPa,s standing . She ask him if she had horns and he said he didn,t comment. she than turned around and ask if she had a tail. He told her he didn,t see one but that some of his Employee,s may see one.
I bet osama obama doesn,t come to Eastern Ky to campaign. I wish he would. He would probably need the National Guard for protection.

[Bad Water Bill]

He keeps saying republicans want to throw seniors off the bridge but what about him allowing seniors to either starve or freeze to death because they are forced to make that choice.

S S checks do NOT rise even if utilities,food or petroleum prices tripled.

And that is exactly what he wants.

[MtGun44]

Ryan's plan doesn't cut anything for anyone older than 55 today. The opposition talking
heads that make that claim are lying.

Bill

[ShootNSteel]

I work a company that produces coal mining equipment, in fact they invented it in the early 1900's and we are the gold standard of the business today. Everyone elses comments about epa, natural gas, and a warm winter are fairly spot on. The last few months have been some of the roughest times for us in a long long time, as far as orders for new machines and equipment, which is a direct correlation to the market place for coal.

Coal mine owners are so hard up that they are shutting down all but their highest producing mines. Which means that all the equipment, machine and manpower for that mine are also shut down. They are running their equipment into the ground, and instead of getting it rebuilt or purchasing new, they are taking equipment out of their idle mine and exhausting it instead. Not only is this hurting our company immensely, it will also slow the return of the coal cutting, as when all machines are exhausted completely there will for sure be a bottleneck in production.

[felix]

Baldor Electric gained market share over the biggie companies by stocking the inventory of all items during any downturn. Baldor keeps employee raises to a minimum during any upturn, and hopes for any gold diggers to move on. Baldor moved out of Missouri into Arkansas 50 years ago to avoid any union. As far as I knew, Baldor has never layed off anyone in its entire history. ... felix

[41 mag fan]

I work a company that produces coal mining equipment, in fact they invented it in the early 1900's and we are the gold standard of the business today. Everyone elses comments about epa, natural gas, and a warm winter are fairly spot on. The last few months have been some of the roughest times for us in a long long time, as far as orders for new machines and equipment, which is a direct correlation to the market place for coal.

Coal mine owners are so hard up that they are shutting down all but their highest producing mines. Which means that all the equipment, machine and manpower for that mine are also shut down. They are running their equipment into the ground, and instead of getting it rebuilt or purchasing new, they are taking equipment out of their idle mine and exhausting it instead. Not only is this hurting our company immensely, it will also slow the return of the coal cutting, as when all machines are exhausted completely there will for sure be a bottleneck in production.


Joy mining equip???

Only one I know of by your post that started producing continuous miners back in the early 1900's

Just found out sat from a friend of mine, whose a counselor, that he will be needed soon at one of the mines in the Vincennes In area. They will be shutting down.
I work for peabody underground, and within a 20 min drive of Vincennes theres 4 underground mines. One is Air Quality owned by Peabody, then Carlisle mine in Carlisle owned by Sunrise coal, then Black Panther mine in Oaktown, plus 5 Star in Petersburg

Just a few weeks ago rumor had it AQ was shutting down, drove by on a sat, and they had well over 100,000 tons of clean coal on the ground they can't move.
This coal is low sulphur so it's worth more than the coal from my mine in Francisco.

Plus the next weekend, I was towing my boys truck back and drove by the black panther mine, I bet between 2 different piles theres close to 1/2 million tons laying on the ground, they can't move.
Black Panther 2 mo ago went to working 3 weeks, 1 week off.

6 yrs ago when i started working at AQ it was rumored to be shutting down, and that rumor floats around quite a bit.

Rumor was also going around a few weeks ago 5 Star was closing also.

So one of them is shutting down, but if it's AQ, Peabody will try to relocate its workers to other mines, whether it be their 3 strip mines here in IN, or the one here in Francisco underground or even wherever they want to go.
They are good about doing that for its workers.

I've got 2 mines owned by Alliant coal barely 10 min ea from me. Gibson County west is slated to open next year, they are still pushing forward with it, gibson County East has been open for about 12-13 yrs now and still is going strong.

Out look though for coal forecasts are not good though, i think as alot of us whose been in the coal industry for years think, the coal mining has seen its heydays, and is now on the slide, as more wind turbines go up and new energy technology takes effect.

I was visiting with my aunt yesterday, she just got back from Joliet Il where she used to live. She was saying that she seen alot of signs that said "No More Coal"
thru central and northern Il.

So the despicable one started it and will go down in history as the one who got the alternative energy foothold in the door. He can also be the one who can reloacate us coal miners to working in jobs with comparable salaries.

[1Shirt]

When I see a wind or solar powered 747 in the air, I will consider that maybe-just maybe there may be something to say for wind and solar. BUT, until then, fossil fules are in abundance and need to be utilized to the max.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Bad Water Bill]

Argon Lab has been working on wind power since the 70s and still can not make the wind blow 24/7/365.

If the folks that got us the A bomb can not get the answer to reliable wind power we need to put the politicians in front of them.

OH wait all politicians are good for is HOT AIR.

Why do we have GLOBAL WARMING? Could it just to many politicians running their mouth off for to long?

[popper]

French built several humongous wind farms, then sold them because they weren't profitable. Used to travel throughout the plains states with dad, to the hydro and coal generators. They took whatever turbines came off the line, now you can't give em away. All political BS. When people believe crud, they get crud.

[Plate plinker]

Curious as to how we will be rid of all those wind turbines when the time comes? Timber! And a scrapin we will go. I dislike the red lights a nitethe most. Ruins the prairie.

[Bad Water Bill]

And no one will ever know how many birds are killed by each turbine every year.

Yeah really good for the environment as long as you are not a member of the bird family and migrate thru those killing fields.

[waksupi]

How come I have wandered around wind generators, and never did see a dead bird? I did see a dead coyote once, no idea how he got up high enough to get killed by the darned things. I don't recall ever seeing any dead ones around the wind mills on the farms and ranches, either.

[ShootNSteel]

Joy mining equip???

You got it

[MtGun44]

There are reports of lots of birds killed by them, but I suspect it has a lot to do with
what the environment is like where they are sited. Some areas have relatively little
habitat for high flying birds, other areas are on major bird flyways.

My biggest problem with windmills is that they put out 30% of the rating over a
year. They basically increase the cost of the electricity by 5 times or more over
coal fired. AND they don't put out power predictably.

Bill