soft boolit

[44man]

I keep reading about some of you that love soft boolits in your revolvers and some that say the Keith boolit is best and the LBT stinks. I found a picture of a fired Keith cast 30 to 1 from a .44. What do we have here? Why, a truncated cone boolit! Amazing, isn't it?

[Bret4207]

One mans junk is another mans treasure. Some guys liked Marilyn Monroe, some Jane Russell. Me, I liked Ann Margaret. What ever floats yer boat. Need I go on?

[Larry Gibson]

One mans junk is another mans treasure. Some guys liked Marilyn Monroe, some Jane Russell. Me, I liked Ann Margaret. What ever floats yer boat. Need I go on?

Ann Margret....ah yes..every time some asks me if I want somthing my standard reply is a winning lottery ticket and a date with Ann Margret (not necessarily in that order). I fell in love with her in '65 when her and Johnny Rivers came back down to our base camp (Camp Ray - we had been on an operation when they performed at Bien Hoa Airbase) to perform just for us (1/503d Inf, 173d Airborne Brigade, Seperate). I had a small stool (metal bomb fin crate) and was about 35 yards from her when she came out on stage in the black leotards. I also had my 6x30 binos which "enhanced" my view.

I don't know who "Darren" is but I'm insanely jealous!!!

Larry Gibson

[454PB]

There's no way Elmer Keith would have a gas checked boolit carry his name! That looks like a Lyman 429244 Ray Thompson design.

However, I agree that boolits pushed with this much pressure need a harder alloy.

[Larry Gibson]

I keep reading about some of you that love soft boolits in your revolvers and some that say the Keith boolit is best and the LBT stinks. I found a picture of a fired Keith cast 30 to 1 from a .44. What do we have here? Why, a truncated cone boolit! Amazing, isn't it?

Ok, back to the topic......that is a very good example of obturation in the bore during accelleration. The same thing happens to cast bullets in rifles, even with "bore riding" bullet noses. Any imbalances caused (obviously there will be some) is accentuated by higher RPM leading to inaccuracy. Another problen is the TC shaped bullet will not have the same effect on game as the squared meplats of the the orginal Kieth shape.

Larry Gibson

[fecmech]

I made a similar post here a year or two ago and I think people thought I was putting them on. I used to cast Keith 429421 HP's out of 20/1 lead tin to hunt chucks with. I noticed when testing for accuracy that the holes in the paper looked more like rn's than swc's. Groups ran about 1-1.5" bigger at 50 yds than the ww/lino mix but they sure did a job on woodchucks!. I found a couple laying on top of the ground after the snow melted and they had turned into rnfp's from swc's. I have known for years that acww bullets, SWC's and RN's when fired in full snort mag loads set back and get shorter. They are in my opinion less accurate in revolvers because of this, so all my .357 mag loads are 50/50 ww/lino.

[44man]

Larry I only disagree with one item. The shoulder on the semi wadcutter has no effect on game, it is the meplat only that does the work. A truncated cone boolit with a larger meplat then the semi wadcutter is more effective, as would a semi wadcutter with a larger meplat.

[Bass Ackward]

I think people make assumptions on accuracy based on hardness. I don't see anything wrong with that. No gas cutting or stripping. Could have been accurate.

If your pressure peeks without bullet support by steel, then you get deformation. The faster your bullet is going when pressure peaks, the more pressure it can resist. Lube under hydrolic pressure is stronger than lead which is why most can't shoot LLA. Bore condition is everything to maintaining hydrolic pressure or you need harder lead.

Ever wonder how some guys can shoot ACWW at 3000 + fps when others say you need lino over 2000?

[Scrounger]

Back to Ann Margaret...Please. She was really something. I watch a lot of the old movies of my youth, 40s, 50s, 60s, and lust at the beautiful women we had back then. (If you can imagine a 66 year old lusting...) Then I catch myself and remind me that that once gorgeous woman is now as old as I am and nature has probably been as unkind to her. Sigh.. At least she was once great, which is more than I can say for me. Maybe I'm prejudiced but I don't think today's women can compare to them. Funny how we can remember gasoline at 20 cents a gallon, hamburgers at 15 cents and a new Ford for $1800 but we can't remember working for $1.25 an hour... Ahhh, Ann Margaret, Donna Reed, Julia Adams, Dorothy Malone......

[DLCTEX]

It doesn't take as much pressure to deform lead as one might think. My son fired my Ruger Mk. I 22 under water in our pool, the recovered bullets were enlongated by almost twice their normal length. Evidently this was caused by the drag of cavitation behind the bullet base. My 45 was only fired with j words, and the only change evident was rifling marks. Dale

[44man]

I never mentioned accuracy! The LBT style truncated cone boolits and the XTP's are very accurate. This was a jab at those that say the truncated cone boolits are no good when in fact they might be shooting them without knowing it. All in fun!

[leftiye]

Scrounger, We've been having trouble telling which ones were the women for about 30 years now. Makes it hard to compare the sirens of yore to the -----s of today.

[Hardcast]

This thread brings to mind a question I was going to pose to the forum. But if it's OK, I'll ask here while we are on this topic. I have some 429215s cast from pure lead or close to pure lead. How fast will I have to drive them to them to expand on ground hogs? They are not hollow points, but being very soft, I thought they might expand some anyway. In years past, well OK, it was decades past, I ran 429215s cast hard at over 1500 fps out of an 8 3/8" S&W model 29. That gun is long traded off or sold, but I recently aquired another one, and unfortunately it has oversize throats. They are .432". I have a Stillwell .4325" sizer die and thought I might try it with these boolits. Being very soft, I don't want to drive them any faster than I have to to get the desired results. What are your thoughts on the velocity needed? Thanks.

[MT Gianni]

If you want to see hydraulic shock use a 243, if you are ok with dead chucks I dont believe any expansion is necessary with that meplate. Gianni.

[lovedogs]

Lots of wisdom here. Just a few comments to make. Don't worry about expansion with cast bullets. It's the meplat that does the work. As far as truncated bullets... ditto, it's the meplat that makes any cast bullet work. If the flat nose is big enough it'll have plenty of knock-down. I think it was J.D. Jones or Larry Kelly who used some truncated bullets in some of their hand-cannons to take all sorts of big game. I think it was cape buffalo in Africa or those big water buffs in Australia. Anyway, they worked pretty good. I can't see any advantage or disadvantage to the various shapes as long as they have that big meplat. Of course, some shapes won't feed well in some guns, but otherwise I think it's much ado about nothing. Put a bullet with a big meplat in the right place and you got meat.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry I only disagree with one item. The shoulder on the semi wadcutter has no effect on game, it is the meplat only that does the work. A truncated cone boolit with a larger meplat then the semi wadcutter is more effective, as would a semi wadcutter with a larger meplat.

I don't disagree that a larger meplat is more effective. However I've not yet seen anything definative other than opinion that the shoulder on the SWC "has no effect on game". I've shot game with TC bullets and SWCs with the same size meplat of close to the same weight and of the same caliber at the same velocity. It is my opinion that Kieth had it right. A TC with the same meplat surface area as a SWC meplat and shoulder area is "as effective" but I've not seen it "more" effective given equal bullet weights, alloy and velocity. Give either more surface area and that one is more effective.

Larry Gibson

[OLPDon]

Ann Margret....ah yes..every time some asks me if I want somthing my standard reply is a winning lottery ticket and a date with Ann Margret (not necessarily in that order). I fell in love with her in '65 when her and Johnny Rivers came back down to our base camp (Camp Ray - we had been on an operation when they performed at Bien Hoa Airbase) to perform just for us (1/503d Inf, 173d Airborne Brigade, Seperate). I had a small stool (metal bomb fin crate) and was about 35 yards from her when she came out on stage in the black leotards. I also had my 6x30 binos which "enhanced" my view.

I don't know who "Darren" is but I'm insanely jealous!!!

Larry Gibson

I think we need one of these in the Group Buy.
Don

[Ricochet]

That deformed SWC with the truncated cone ogive actually looks a lot like the as-cast Lee 430-255-SWC I've been shooting at full power with a soft alloy. They probably don't deform much, starting near the acceleration-slumped final shape.

Did I understand someone is starting a Group Buy on clones of the young Ann-Margaret?

[OLPDon]

Ricochet:
Have I got a deal for you............................................... ..........
Don

[OLPDon]

We will have to get 45 2.1 to give us a weight. Should we have her GC or PB I would think one crimp ring with a large lube ring for the smoke pole shooters, should be usable with Short and Long barrels, size shouldn't matter.
Don

[44man]

I love the old 429421 but like a dummy I sold it years ago. Some styles of semi wadcutter just don't shoot as good. Some brands also have too small of a meplat. Keith had it right but too many have tried to improve on what can't be improved.
I do see a difference in the effect on deer between the WLN and WFN boolits. I shoot them fairly hard. If a keith and TC boolit had the same size meplats, they would be equal in effect. No one can ever say one is better then the other. However the WFN, TC boolit is better given the wider nose. Nothing to do with the shoulder on a Keith.
The reason the small shoulder doesn't add to the killing power is that the meplat is already forcing tissue out away from it. A good flat nose leaves a terrible wound channel.
Notice I don't mention any expansion which can add a lot to the killing power but can shorten penetration. I like a happy medium for any expansion so the boolit doesn't stop too quickly. Making the boolit heavier really helps here. If I was hunting with the XTP bullets, I would only use the 300 gr. The 240 opens too fast for magnum velocities and I recovered too many inside deer with rib hits. They did a fine job but I do like two holes in game.
I shot a large doe last season at 40 yd's with my .475 WFN. She was quartered towards me. I shot her in the neck and the boolit came out behind her right shoulder. Instant kill without a wiggle. I would not have taken that shot with a .44, 240 XTP unless I was sure to hit the spine. I didn't hit it with the .475, went just under it. Confidence in that big .475 boolit makes any shot possible.
If you have confidence in your boolit, half the battle is won. Doesn't matter whether you use a Keith or TC boolit.