Question about some leading

[gray wolf]

I had the 44 mag ruger Hunter out today for a little bench work,
First time I had a chance to fire more than just a few rounds.
Being new to the pistol I set up at 15 yards with a sand bag rest.
I shot about 100 rounds and checked the barrel after 50 and then again
when I was done with the last fifty.
The load was 10 grains of long shot powder, and 7 grains of tite group.
The bullet is from a Lyman mold # 429421 round lube groove
Lube was my soft lube, same as for the 45 A C P mico-crystalline + B/W
The metal was WW A/C
I slugged the bore with a soft lead slug and it was .4293
The bullets were sized .431
The throats are about .4317
After I settled down I shot a 12 shot group that was just a big hole.
I measured the widest point edge to edge and then deducted the size of the bullet. The group was less than an inch about .900
OK here is the problem
When I cleaned the barrel I had leading in the first inch after the forcing cone. The Chore boy took out some fine lead powder and some small chunks. a nice little pile of it. The rest of the barrel was lead free and cleaned up with a wet patch.
After the second 50 rounds the condition was the same and the same cleaning process resolved the issue.
Leading in the first inch or so of the barrel is most times is an under sized bullet. But like I said I am using .431 for a .429 barrel.
So what say you all ? The pistol has 25 rounds of J words and about 150 lead bullets so far.


Sam

[runfiverun]

sam did you have the same problems with any of mine?

[gray wolf]

I had just a little but then I shot a lot more today.

[gray wolf]

I should add there was no lead splash on the face of the cylinder or in the frame
window and nothing around the barrel face.

[Lefty SRH]

Frame restriction? Striations in the bore?

[Lefty SRH]

I should add there was no lead splash on the face of the cylinder or in the frame
window and nothing around the barrel face.

What causes that "lead splash"?

[gray wolf]

The bore is very smooth and shines.

[Lefty SRH]

The pressure isn't right but Longshot being a lsower powder should kick that boolit in the butt pretty good.

[gray wolf]

I did not have any lead splashing,
If it did happen I would guess an out of time pistol.

[gray wolf]

I am going to take a guess the F P S was about 975--1075
No place near high pressure.

[Old Caster]

First I would expect too hard of an alloy but straight wheelweights shouldn't be that hard. I next expect some roughness in the barrel as it doesn't take much. I had problems like this with a model 66 when shooting store bought hard lead bullets and I was going around 800 fps. It seemed to lead in 10 or so bullets and not really get any worse no matter how many shots I took and didn't affect accuracy as I continued. I have done the same thing with a model 14 and it wouldn't lead no matter what I did. The 66 quit leading when cast bullets were used with a BHN about 8. Your BHN is probably 11 if you haven't water quenched so it might be worth a shot to soften a bit.
I know some people will suggest lapping the bore, but I feel that this is trying to fix something that can't really be fixed. You can't add metal and can only take away the high spots which might make that part of the bore too large. -- Bill --

[gray wolf]

I would have thought the faster tite group would have hit the bullet harder at the start, and the long shot being slower would have been a little more of an even push.

[gray wolf]

I forgot to say I pulled some bullet and they were still .431

[gray wolf]

It almost hit me like the bullets were getting lead chipped off instead of being squeezed.

[Lefty SRH]

Can you try a .432 boolit?

So lead splash is an indication of out of time? I know you said yours didnt have any splash.

[geargnasher]

Sam, meet Ruger Thread Choke. Ruger Thread Choke, meet Sam! Also, introductions are in order for the ragged, rough-as-a-cob forcing cones. I love my Rugers, but I think they've been using the same .44 forcing cone reamer for going on forty years now, and it was worn out and chipped to buggary after the first six months.

Now that the introductions are over, you might try slugging the part of the barrel that didn't lead, i.e. from the muzzle to about two inches shy of the forcing cone, then back out the muzzle again, and then slug it all the way through and compare the two slugs to see how much the frame crushed the barrel when the Ruger's machine torqued it at the factory. A firelapping may be in order, but you won't know for sure until you do a full slug and a partial slug. Use short pieces of 3/8 birch dowels to CAREFULLY tap the partial slug back out the muzzle, keep feeding pieces just longer than the cylinder in through the forcing cone and add another when one is tapped flush. Take care they don't shear at an angle and wedge in the bore, check that they are loose after every tap.

Gear

[454PB]

Two things I'd try.....

First, another 50 to 100 rounds of jacketed bullets, then a different lube.

My SBH Hunter in .45 Colt exhibited the same behavior until it had fired about 100 jacketed bullets. I use BAC or my own home made 50/50 BW/Alox and now get zero leading.

[gray wolf]

GEAR; I will try what you suggested, I need to cast some pure lead slugs first.
As for shooting more jacketed bullets I am afraid that is impossible for me.
I just can't afford $20 of 30$ dollars for the jacketed bullets.
I know it sounds pi$$y but I just don't have it. I was hoping that I wouldn't have to lap the front of the barrel.
?? If there is a restriction wouldn't that reduce the size of the bullet from the get go, and then make it lead in the rest of the barrel.
I don't think it is the lube.
EDIT to ask, what kind of a small hammer or tool can you use to tap a small dowel with
when it is captured in the frame window ?
Also if the slugged slug was .429 and there was a restriction wouldn't that mean the rest of the barrel is a little bigger ? and should have leaded.
I don't want to get confused.

[Larry Gibson]

I shot a lot of Rugers, S&Ws and other revolvers in my life and never had to fire lap a single one. I've slugged the barrels fore and aft and darned if I can find that elusive "restriction". BTW; it's hard to back the slug out toward the muzzle after pushing in from the muzzle to just in front of the frame. Reason is you don't have a straight shot from the rear of the barrel to push a rod into, the frame sort of gets in the way.

Perhaps the reason I can't find that rare "restriction" is that I break the revolvers in and it just isn't there anymore. I had the good fortune to attend a writers no host meeting at the bar during the '70 or '71 NRA Convention when it was in Portland. All the big names were there; Keith, Nonte, Skelton, Askins, Jordan, Cooper, etc. All of them were deaf as a post then and I was was not so I overheard a lot of conversations. One was that you should always break in a new revolver with jacketed full power loads "to smooth out the revolver barrel".

I agree with 454PB here because that's what I've always done. I shoot 200-300 jacketed loads at top end for the cartridge. Yeah it might cost a little but bulk pistol bullets aren't that expensive, you get some decent practice, get an idea of how the revolver shoots and you "smooth out the barrel". I think it also smooths out and evens up the throats. I shot 300 full magnum loads (240 gr jacketed HPs over 24.5 gr H110) in my Ruger 50th FTBH and the barrel and throats are smooth as a babies butt and so is the forcing cone. I've done the same to every revolver I've bought since that NRA Convention and never, ever had the "restriction" problem.

Gray wolf's problem is probably lube related, alloy or powder related. I'd suggest he add 2% tin to his COWWs and AC the bullets for 10 days before using. If that doesn't cure the leading he should try a known powder for the .44 like Unique at 9 gr with that bullet. If the leading persists try a known lube like BAC or Javelina. If none of those work then be prepared to either shoot 100+ jacketed magnum level loads, maybe 200 - 300, or fire lap. I would try the easy fixes first then fire the jacketed loads and lastly firelap.

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

GEAR; I will try what you suggested, I need to cast some pure lead slugs first.
As for shooting more jacketed bullets I am afraid that is impossible for me.
I just can't afford $20 of 30$ dollars for the jacketed bullets.
I know it sounds pi$$y but I just don't have it. I was hoping that I wouldn't have to lap the front of the barrel.
?? If there is a restriction wouldn't that reduce the size of the bullet from the get go, and then make it lead in the rest of the barrel. With faster powders who's pressure excursion is over by the time the boolit is entering the forcing cone, yes, that might happen. Remember this is a revolver, and the pressure drops dramatically after the boolit base clears the cylinder gap, so my understanding is that the pressure drops off enough about an inch after the restriction that the gas-cutting is no longer enough to cause the severe leading, and the lube blown ahead of the boolit is coating the bore anyway so there's very little abrasion leading the rest of the way out. The other thing that can and does cause this is rough forcing cones as I described many Rugers to have. The rough circular peaks and valleys in the forcing cone where the boolit touches it can actually rip off bits of lead that get trapped in the grooves and carried into the bore a ways, where they deposit. Similar effect to boolits shaving on a sharp throat in an automatic pistol and leading the first inch of the bore. The fix for that is the same for auto or revolver, polish or recut the cone so it swages the engraves rather than scrapes them out.
I don't think it is the lube. I don't either.
EDIT to ask, what kind of a small hammer or tool can you use to tap a small dowel with
when it is captured in the frame window ? That's the tough part. I use a 3/4" birch dowel about 8" long as a punch and support the dowel being driven at a slight angle from the side. Once you get the boolit going the other way, you can use a flat steel bar (NOT a file!) placed through the frame opening to push the dowel through. Leaning over the gun with the muzzle on cardboard on the floor and pushing the dowel with both hands on the bar is one way, but if you slip you might mar your gun. If you have a good vise and soft jaws that helps a bunch.
Also if the slugged slug was .429 and there was a restriction wouldn't that mean the rest of the barrel is a little bigger ? and should have leaded.
I don't want to get confused.

Isn't this a five-groove pistol?

Gear

[runfiverun]

i know he has tried a softer alloy and 9.3 grs of unique already.
i sent him some.
he has allready tried a different lube too.
sam.
you could shoot those swaged ones i sent you, with some lapping compound in the groove at the base.
they are .430 and should be just enough to take out any rough spots.
or try waterdropping.
you most likely don't need to push the slug all the way down the bbl.
just measure that first inch that's leading, and stop where it ends and measure both ends of the boolit.
and then measure from the muzzle end part way down.

[gray wolf]

I was able to get a slug in the barrel from the back end, I got the slug into the rear of the barrel to the dept of the slug---even with the forcing cone. I removed the slug and it was .429 I also did this from the muzzle end and the slug was .429
The forcing cone has little rings like the growth rings in a tree. I am thinking It is a rough forcing cone chopping up the lead. Thoughts on this ?

[geargnasher]

That's the hard way, but ok! I was saying drive one slug in from the muzzle end a ways, and back out, then drive another in from the muzzle, all the way through. You want one to pass through the frame area of the barrel, in front of the forcing cone, and the other one to check the rest of the barrel, at least the muzzle end.

Typical restrictions I've measured that were causing issues were in the .0005"-.001" range. Sounds like rough forcing cone could be causing your issues, too. That can be lapped.

Gear

[1bluehorse]

I've owned/do own a few Rugers myself and my experience has been just the opposite of Larry's. The barrel/frame constriction is not "elusive", it's there, just run a pin gauge down the bore, you'll find it...my wife's 357 Cimmeron's had minor "choke" there as well. Her's only took 12 firelapping rounds to clean up to where the pin gauge would drop completely through. The Rugers (and there have been a bunch) have all taken well in excess of that number. Maybe shooting a couple hundred jacketed bullets will clean this up, I don't know, but if you believe what others have said about firelapping it is also supposed to give your barrel a slight taper which would be of great benefit to lead bullet shooting. I read lot's of info on firelapping before I ever tried it, some like it, some don't. It's worked well for me. I even firelapped a Puma 45 colt rifle that wouldn't shoot a 5in pattern at 25yds, when finished it would do 2in at 100. I'm not to hot on firelapping rifles though because it also opens the throats. YOUR numbers all seem to match nicely so maybe just a few lapping rounds will clean up the forcing cone area if that truely is the problem.

[Larry Gibson]

1bluehorse

I never said the restriction wasn't there at all. What I said was after breaking in the revolver with jacketed it almost always isn't there. My concept is this; If jacketed bullets swage the restriction back out, if the restriction is there from the threads, then there is still the same amount of metal in the barrel. If you remove a couple thousanths, and you do remove remove metal, from that area of the bore by firelapping and then the barrel eventually swages back out then the bore in that area is over sized. That may or may not pose a problem.

The point is, I and many others have perfectly non leading Rugers, S&Ws and Cimerons, without resorting to removing metal via firelapping. I have fire lapped numerous barrels in the past, especially after Ross Seifried told everyone what a great idea it was in that old G&A article. I still have my Neco Fire Lap kit from back then. I don't have any revolvers I firelapped back then if that is a hint. There are other ways to solve the "elusive restricition" problem without removing metal. Simply an alternative method preferred by many is shooting full power jacketed loads to break in the revolver. You're welcome to come up to University pPlace with your pin guages and I'll bet they drop through my barrels just as slick as my pin gauges do.

Anyone is more than welcome to fire lap their own revolvers, makes no difference to me. However, wouldn't you agree, they are certainly welcome to try 100 + full powered jacketed (I prefer 200-300) 1st to see if that solves the problem before resorting to removing metal?

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

Larry, why don't you sent Gray Wolf a couple hundred jacketed bullets and a note on load details you'd like him to use?

Gear

[runfiverun]

i'd say it is a rough throat from the measurements.
running some copper down the bbl at full throttle will most likely smooth it out, but i don't think sam's wrists wil take the pounding.
it's not like he's 20.
you could try a little hand lapping right in the rough spot, or attempt some paper patching.
or just keep shooting and cleaning.

[1bluehorse]

I think from now on I'll just keep my opinions to myself.....

[454PB]

This place is all about "differing opinions", so don't be afraid to express yours.....they are valuable to us all.

While Larry and I are in the same corner on this, I also have to say that R5R has a good point. Years ago, when I couldn't afford jacketed bullets for my many pistols, I used boolits cast from straight linotype to polish new barrels, and I believe water dropped boolits of the same hardness would do the same thing. It takes more shooting (maybe 200 to 300 rounds), but hard boolits do polish the bore.

[mdi]

With .4317" cylinder throats, I go with at least .432" sized bullets. All my revolver bullets get sized to the same size as the cylinder throats...

[gray wolf]

Yes I had thoughts about upping the size a little, but I thought with .429 bore
.432 might be a tad big. I guess I am not sure how big you can go without having to much pressure. ??
I took a closer look at the forcing cone and the last half of it has machining rings like the growth rings on a tree and they continue all the way up the length of the rifling lead.

[mdi]

Yes I had thoughts about upping the size a little, but I thought with .429 bore
.432 might be a tad big. I guess I am not sure how big you can go without having to much pressure. ??
I took a closer look at the forcing cone and the last half of it has machining rings like the growth rings on a tree and they continue all the way up the length of the rifling lead.
I've read, in a trustworthy publication, that some cast bullet target shooters have gone as far as .005"-.006" over groove diameter with no pressure problems. I've shot .432" bullets in a .429" barrel with no indications of high pressure...

[gray wolf]

thanks men the info is all good.

[runfiverun]

iv'e read and believed .003 before pressure starts to rise with any signifigance.
1 thou is about 300 psi till that point.

[mdi]

iv'e read and believed .003 before pressure starts to rise with any signifigance.
1 thou is about 300 psi till that point.
Interesting RFR, where is that info available? I've wondered if there is a refrence to bullet size vs pressures...

[runfiverun]

i picked it up in a handloader article about 20 years ago, and it just stuck with me.
they had trace data from speer, airc it was barsness that wrote it.