1894 44mag clean barrel = cast bullets problems

[rp85]

hello;

rifle is a malin 1894 in 44 magnum with a micro grove barrel.

to clean the barrel i first use a wet patch of ed's red, let the ed's red
sit for 15 min. and then run a patch with chore boy's copper wool,
then dry patch. barrel is alway very clean afterwards.

after cleaning have notice it takes several shoots for the rifle to starting shooting
reasonable groups. common issue with micro grove barrels and cast bullets.

am i creating the accuracy problem by the way i clean the barrel?

first thing for 1894 owners is slugging the bore.

using a lyman 429215 mold, gas checked design, hornady gas ckecks, weight sized and lubed is 225 grains,
sized to .430".

plain base bullet, real problem child, ohause mold, 259 grain bullet, sized to 432-433". speed, just a quess, @1250 fps.

problem is the number of shoots that are required to get accuracy.

accuracy to me with the gas check bullet is 1" group at 50 yards, (3 shots/20.0 grains of 2400). with this bullet, groups at 50 yards might start off 4-6" range until 6-8 shots before the group shrinks to the 1" range.

still working on a load for the plain base bullet, accuracy is 5-6" at 50 yards.

thanks for input.

rp

[45-70 Chevroner]

Sounds like the rifle likes to be dirty before it shoots good. I have been shooting a Winchester 94 with a 16" barrel using a Lyman 245 gr. SWC and still haven't gotten it to shoot any better than 4 to 6" groups at 50 yds. I have the 429215 but I haven't tried it in this rifle yet. I'll have to give it a try. As for cleaning I usually don't clean the inside of the barrel for several outings. When it gets noticeable leading I use my Lewis lead remover on my rifle cleaning rod, it is a little cumberson but it works. I am going to get some chore boy and try it though.

[runfiverun]

why clean the bbl?

you are just creating work for yourself.
after you went through all the trouble to make things right, you then go and un fix it.

[Gohon]

You posted about two weeks ago about poor accuracy with the same loads and received dozens of answers and suggestions. Now you think it is because you clean the barrel that your accuracy is not good. Did you try any of the suggestions from before? You're trying to obtain accuracy with a .430 bullet in a barrel that most likely slugs at .431-.432 and you wonder why accuracy stinks. What are they telling you over on Marlinowners where you have the same thread going?

[rp85]

gas checked bullet, run through a .430" sizer will produce very good accuracy AFTER 6-8 shots. question is "why". copper gas checks do make a difference when it comes to accuracy.

plain base bullet, sized to 432-433", just will not produce accuracy. no accuracy even after 6-8 shots.

plain base bullet speed is, just a guess @1250fps. been slowly working the speed down on plain base cast bullet.

have tried the suggestion provided by others. the only thing that has helped accuracy is putting a gas check on the lyman 429215 bullet.

i'm retired and it's not uncommon to shoot 50+ rounds of cast bullets through a rifle when i go to a range. 50 rounds of cast bullet, with speeds 1600-2000 fps, usually means it's time to clean a barrel.

never had this problem with other rifles shooting cast bullets (30/30, 30/06
and 308win)

thanks for input.

rp

[Cherokee]

rp85 - try NOT cleaning the rifle until accuacy starts to fall off. I do not clean any of my cast bullet barrel until accuracy suffers. After cleaning, it always takes some shots before the barrel is "seasoned" again (you cleaned that out) and settles down. For my most used 45 Colt LA rifle, I clean it maybe once a year, and that's about 700-1000 rounds fired.

[trk]

FWIW - I 'clean' with a dry patch over a bronze brush. (At the match between 10 shots, 4 series of 10 for 40 shots). If it's heavy with lube I'll dampen one patch with Ed's red, followed with a dry patch (all over bronze brush). That gets me through the match with minimal issues.

After the match clean with a couple of wet patches several dry. Minimal cleaning - it doesn't take much if the lube one uses is good.

[runfiverun]

so you were using a g/c designed boolit without the g/c?
pushing it 2,000 fps and had poor accuracy from a clean bbl.

[runfiverun]

50 plain based boolits is nothing, even over 1600 fps.
i shot over 100 yesterday and reloaded those same cases and shot them again today.
i'll probably do it again tomorrow.
i am not going to clean my bbl.

[Gohon]

gas checked bullet, run through a .430" sizer will produce very good accuracy AFTER 6-8 shots. question is "why". copper gas checks do make a difference when it comes to accuracy.

Main purpose of a gas check is to allow allow higher pressure and more speed with casts. I don't know if a gas check will affect accuracy, I have my doubts but it will help reduce leading if it exists. In either case the check would have to be considered a band aid to the real problem which is bullet to bore fit. You may be getting away with the gas checked casts because you're loading high enough to bump up the bullet to fit the bore. Doesn't matter how your other rifles shoot....this is not those guns and Marlin is notorious for over sized chambers, especially the 44 magnum and it's slow twist which doesn't help out in any case.

Also for some unknown reason to myself, some guns simply will hate a particular mold, weight, or bullet and love others. I have a 1894C 357 magnum that will not shoot worth beans any kind of SWC, no matter if it is checked, plain base or what ever. However load a LBT or LFN type cast and it will shoot one hole groups all day long as long as I do my part.

What is the powder and load your using on the plain base cast?

[rp85]

have always used gas checks in .30 cal type rifles.

when i got the 44, being the cheap skate, thought i could use a 44 cal 259 grain plain base bullet and not spend $ for .44 cal gas checks. from my ruger and s&w 44's this plain base bullet shoots extreamly well. now have 2 lyman gas check molds and a lee gas check mold. plain base mold is an ohause.

had planned to simply cast a bunch of plain base bullets, lube'em, size'em and just go shoot'em. didn't work that way with the marlin.

runfiverun, how many time have you reloaded your cases? been using the same 50 cases trying to fix accuracy problem. watching close for split cases. in my area once fired 44 magnum cases can't be found.

have 100 new win cases for jacketed bullets (hunting) and another @250 to play with shooting cast bullets.

midway has starline brass for $19.95 plus their other fees. other fees will get you. ordered something last week for $29.95. with other fees attached order came to $45.04. liquid material was involved.


rp

[runfiverun]

get starline direct from them.
i just ordered 1k of them. cost about 150.00 shipped.


i have loaded these remingtons about 8 times now.
i have been doing lube testing with them.

i have a batch of win's that just sit there for now. [2 loads on them]
some cbc's [magtech] that i use for swaged jaxketed rounds in my browning.
and some mixed pmc,fed,hornady brass that the kids get when we go out plinking that must have about 20 loads on them from 1700 down [19.5 grs of 2400] to 1200 fps [8 grs of unique] in my leverguns.

brass has better characteristics after a couple of loads on it but it comes to a point where it loses it's neck tension or the batch becomes unequal.
look for some of 44 mans postings he has a better explanation of what happens, he even built a indicator for his press to show neck tension differences.
you could p.m. him also.

some marlins [especially the 44's] just have issues shooting cast the gas check shooting better is most likely because the gas check is getting a better grip on the rifling.
you could talk to pat marlin and see if he makes a plain base gas check maker for the 44.
or try a harder alloy with them to see if things improve.
i only have one marlin to deal with anymore [my 375] and i had to go .003 over bore size and to 20 bhn boolits to get it to shoot well for me.

[dubber123]

Cleaning is a habit for many people, and it's not a bad one necessarily. If a gun is a pain to get to group with a clean barrel, I would just try lightly oiling the bore after a session if you are concerned with corrosion. I have quite a few thousand rounds down my .475, and I don't ever recall cleaning the bore, just oiling it. My 1911 and 625 I shoot for competition have also been many thousand rounds without a full bore cleaning. After years of always cleaning the bores each time, it was hard to get used to, but overall it causes me less grief.

[rhead]

6 to eight shots before the barrel is suffeciently fouled to shoot sub 2moa groups?
I do not see this as a problem unless the accuracy goes away after 20 to 25 shots of something. How many shots until the accuracy goes away?
I do not think that it is the way you clean the barrel so much as the fact that you clean it when you do not need to.

Use the same lube for your fouling shots that you will use for your working loads. Some guns are more forgiving a lube switch than others.

[mdi]

FWIW; I have a Puma in .44 Magnum that I've been working on (sights, loads, etc.). I have a plain based 240 gr. FRN from Beartooth Bullets that feeds and gives me gooder accuracy than I can shoot (I think so, 2"-3" @ 45 yds), no leading 'cause my groove dia. is .431" and I shoot no smaller than .432".

First thing I do after shooting is run a Ed' Red soaked patch through a few times and depending on what dry ones look like afterwards, either soak longer or dry the barrel. I don't think the choreboy method is necessary every time, only when there is a lot of visible lead in the barrel. I don't mind cleaning my guns but I've read a lot about overcleaning firearms, and with my meager budget I don't want to over anything (damage or wearout prematurely). Lately I've been coating the barrel with Bull Plate, gonna see what if any difference comes from that as I've read a couple shooters have done this with good results (first shot accuracy, less lead, etc.).

So, in your case I'd say clean less and compare results...

[Dan Cash]

why clean the bbl?

you are just creating work for yourself.
after you went through all the trouble to make things right, you then go and un fix it.

+1 Unless it is leaded it don't need no steenking cleaning.