Forum Noob - Terminal effects of heavy .38's & .38/200

[Bigslug]

[smilie=s:Hello! Life long gun nut, long time handloader, fairly new to casting, and police department support staff gun monkey.

I discovered this forum while searching for information on the British version of the .38 S&W (.38/200) and followed the link to this group buy thread:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=106010

My motivation stems from work to develop a reliably-penetrating, but low-recoiling load for my .357 snubby and am also working on the acquisition of a friend's .38 Webley MKIV revolver. I am in the early stages, and have done some casting with Lyman's 358430, which is a 195 grain round nose very similar in profile to the original British drawings show on the old thread link.

I was able to shoot a couple of these (cast at 5% tin) into ballistics gelatin at chronoed velocities of 574 and 630fps using bottom-end .38 Special powder charges. Both completely penetrated an 18" block of gelatin in a perfectly straight line with no deformation. So I've accomplished the main goal of penetration with barely perceptible recoil, but the wound channels in the block were little more than caliber-sized holes. Something a with a little more in the crush/tear/cavitate department would be preferred.

The group buy thread was for the creation of a slightly different 200 grain profile, but also discussed the 178 grain British MK2 bullet, which is reported to have a tendency to tumble due to being excessively long, back-heavy, and understabilized.

My two questions:

Has anybody tested the new 200 grainer in a media that would indicate if it's a straight-line penetrator or a tumbler?

Does anyone have knowledge of a mold that delivers the profile and performance characteristics of the 178grain MK2 slug?

Thanks all!

[beagle]

Welcome to the site. Interesting quest on the old .38 "heavies". Several years back I had a box of the old .38 Special "Police" 200 grainers and finally shot them in a M19 2 1/2" and they did well. I can tell you right up front that they're loaded hotter than the recommended loads for the 195 grain 358430 195 grainer.

I've loaded both it and also the 35875 to "book" maximum loads for a .38 Special and although the terminal affect is there, the trajectories leave a lot to be desired. That's especially true with fixed sight guns which tend to shoot way high. That max load is not up to the velocity of the factory load by a long stretch of the imagination.

Supposedly the 358430 tumbled upon impact also but I have never been able to verify this. Mike Venturino wrote an article on them in the .38 Special many years ago to this affect.

I've kind of tended toward the 358429/358439 bullets in my Rugers as the heavies and lately, I have been using a PB 38-162-SWC RCBS with Pat Marlin's PB gas checks. This seems to work well and also has a short enough nose to feed in my M1894 Marlin .357 Mag./beagle

[MT Gianni]

I have been bumping a flat on my 358430 boolits but have not tested them for penetration. Accuracy is not affected.

[Bigslug]

Interesting quest on the old .38 "heavies".

Quest? I prefer to call it "Mad Science", but it's all good! :veryconfu

I'm very encouraged by my results though - a lot of factory defense loads are either wimpy non-penetrators like the 110 grain Silvertips, or are top-end +P's that are decidedly unpleasant to shoot in Airweights. Both issues would seem to be solved here.


Supposedly the 358430 tumbled upon impact also but I have never been able to verify this. Mike Venturino wrote an article on them in the .38 Special many years ago to this affect.

I'd be curious as to what his particular combination of variables was. Just based on the non-tapering, cylindrical shape of the bullet, my guess is the only thing that would give a reliable tumble would be a slower rate of twist.

I suspect my .357 will end up with a 200 grain sharp-cornered Keith-profile semi wadcutter loaded into .38 cases, but the Webley will demand tradition.

[steg]

I had a 141 gr wc 10 cav H&G mold that I picked up around 30 or so years ago, I really didn't use it much because using book loads the things hit 6" high no matter what gun they were used in. One day I came across an article on the 200 grain .38s that the English Bobbies used to use, I talked to a Machinist buddy of mine and asked him if he would take on the job of deepening tho mould, and him being ready for any challenge, took on the job, we used coal region cyphering, to figure out the design, and we ended up with a 195gr RFN with a 1/4" Meplat, their a few thousandths shy of being a bore runner and I'm still able to use the origional crimping groove.
Their pleasant to shoot in my airweight at I'm guessing between 700 to 750 FPS, and they do hit hard, I use 10 gr of 2400 when I load them in my security six 357, and at that loading they do tend to barrel flip, but nothing uncontrollable, and finally their pretty darn accurate too...................steg

[Bret4207]

I never heard of the 38 178's being all that great in the stopping area. The 38 S+W and Special "Super Police" loadings with the 200 grain boolits were another animal. If you can find a cpy of Henry Stebbins "Pistols- a Modern Encyclopedia" (http://www.amazon.com/Pistols-Encyclopedia-Henry-M-Stebbins/dp/1258216043) you'll find a lot of anecdotal evidence about the round. My very limited experience with the 358430 in 38 Specials shows it to hit with authority, as much because of the meplat as anything else I'd guess.

Not much help, sorry.

[BAGTIC]

The .38/200 loads never worked out very well in practice.

Assuming a non-expanding bullet that doesn't tumble penetration should be about proportional to the momentum. A 200 gr @ 600 fps should penetrate about as well as a 145 gr @ 827 fps but the lighter bullet would have about 25% more kinetic energy so mightcreate a little wider wound cavity.

Might because at low velocities there won't be much permanent cavity due to the shock wave
due to tissue elasticity

[youngmman]

I shoot a 173gr Keith from an H&G #43 mold with 7grns of blue dot in the 38 special. I have shot it frequently in a S&W Mo. 36 (Chiefs Special 2") and it has done well and is comfortable to shoot. When I say "done well" I mean I have used it in other 357's for varmint hunting and from the damage done it seems like it would be a good defense load.

[Outpost75]

If you are shooting a .357 revolver, I would recommend a double-end, bevel-based, full wadcutter, loaded with about 10 grains of Alliant #2400 or 5 grains of Bullseye in .357 brass. The bevel base forward is speed loader friendly and will give full-caliber crush with deep penetration and manageable recoil.

http://www.grantcunningham.com/2011/11/ed-harris-revisiting-the-full-charge-wadcutter/

[dilly]

FYI this thread is three years old. Nothing wrong with contributing still, though.

It's easy to miss; I do it sometimes too.

[williamwaco]

FYI this thread is three years old. Nothing wrong with contributing still, though.

It's easy to miss; I do it sometimes too.


Well? It may be but this is the first time I have seen it. I am glad it popped up again.

[ddixie884]

I enjoy older threads, especially if I haven't seen them before. Sometimes when The freight business is good, I miss out on threads as I did on this one. I also find that at times someone teaches me things I had never heard before.

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

Interesting stumble on this thread.
I just yesterday, did some experimenting and load 50 rounds
in 38 special cases, using the NOE version of the 35-200.
4 grains of Rex-2 gave a giggly POP! sound and virtually no recoil.
Anxious to get to the range and chrono some and see how they shoot.