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fatelk
04-21-2012, 12:10 AM
I'm going to try again tomorrow at coaxing something resembling accuracy out of this old rifle.

It's an 1894 .44 Magnum from the '70s. I've had it for many years. The last time I really sat down and tried some different ammo in it from sandbags was ten to fifteen years ago. About the best it would do was 7-8" groups at 100 yards. I've tinkered with it occasionally a couple times since. I've learned more about casting and loading since then.

I know there are a lot of guys here who know more than I do, thought I'd ask for any input. The bore and crown look OK to me, but I took some close up photos and on closer look it looks rough (not damaged- just made that way). I noticed some time back that there was some slight "wrinkles" inside partway up from the heavy "1894" rollstamp on the outside, but I slugged it and the slug looked fine, measured just a hair under .430".

I plan on carefully trying everything I have tomorrow, from 180gr to 310gr, light to heavy, factory jacketed and cast. Any ideas, either ammo or rifle?

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm274/fatelk/1894005.jpg
http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm274/fatelk/1894001.jpg
http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm274/fatelk/1894006.jpg

725
04-21-2012, 12:29 AM
If it were mine, I'd cast hard and slow 'em down. Experimentation will show the weight it likes.

longbow
04-21-2012, 01:55 AM
I'll pass on my experiences with my 1894 .44 mag. Maybe it will help:

- Mine is about 28 years old
- microgroove
- 1:38" twist
- shot jacketed not bad but not great
- wouldn't shoot cast Lyman 429421's well at all (it was the only mould I could find at the time)
- turns out I should have slugged the bore ~ bore is 0.4315"; Lyman 429421 casts at 0.429" so no wonder it wouldn't shoot well
- tried fatter boolits at 0.432"+ and accuracy improved but still not stellar and leading a bit of a problem (PB boolits)
- read about Marlins having tight spots in the barrel so re-slugged with lubed slug and slowly pushed it through the barrel ~ sure enough, noticeable tight spots
- decided to hand lap which worked out fine
- accuracy is now quite good with H&G #503 (0.433" diameter), Mihec 434640 (0.434" diameter) and Accurate #43-165B (0.433" diameter) and no leading even with hot loads

My gun does not seem to like any boolits I have tried over about 270 gr. including "J" bullets. Some people have good results with boolits of up to 310 gr. but so far none I have tried have worked in my gun. Boolit style may be an issue here along with velocity ~ I think you have to push heavy boolits hard. However, if you keep boolit weight below about 265 gr. they should stabilize.

Your bore looks a little rough so possibly some firelapping or hand lapping will help if you do not get success other ways. My logic was that I was not getting accuracy anyway so if lapping didn't help it wouldn't hurt and I would rebarrel.

Also, not an accuracy issue but feeding ~ mine would not feed SWC styles until I modified the cartridge stop to allow longer OAL and did work on the follower. SWC styles hung up on either the nose or shoulder until I worked on it. RNFP styles fed fine.

FWIW

Longbow

herbert buckland
04-21-2012, 02:37 AM
Do you know the twist rate if it is 1in 38 200gr or even 180 gr bullets will most lickly be the most acurate,as mentioned fire laping can do no harm

excess650
04-21-2012, 08:11 AM
I had a one in th elate '70s or early 80s. The roll stamping was plainly visible inside the barrel, so it went back to Marlin and was rebarreled. I was shooting 240gr jacketed exclusively, and tried Hornady, Speer and Sierras. The Hornady and Speers were almost interchangeable as their cannelure was the same distance from the base vs the Sierra that had to be seated deeply. Regardless, when I found "the load" it went to shooting cloverleafs at 60 yards. I recall it liked 22gr WW296 with CCi 350 primers. I don't recall the cases. Book loads of the time listed 24gr as max, but my Marlin wouldn't group worth a hoot with that load. I should have kept that rifle....

That roughness you're seeing is or was pretty typical with Marlin's microgroove. The marks on tops of the lands are from the reamer. The grooves are rough from the broach chattering. That roughness acts like a file to whatever projectile is shot through it.

HDS
04-21-2012, 09:47 AM
That is pretty sad. I've seen people shoot up to 300gr from the 1894CB so I guess that's what one should be able to expect from this model of gun when functioning properly.

W.R.Buchanan
04-21-2012, 03:13 PM
Fat Elk: With the twist rate at 1/38 the faster you run the boolits the better it will shoot. Lapping the barrel will help and using oversized boolits will help also.

If your gun won't feed SWC's reliabily then just chamfer the chamber mouth about .040-.050 that will fix the problem.

I have heard so many different stories on what boolits will shoot right in these guns I don't know what to believe any more. My 1894CB rifle shoots .429244 SWCGC at 260gr best of all. 22gr of H110 and a magnum primer, for around 1750 FPS. That's really all I need from that gun. This boolit will go completely tru an Elk at 1000fps so how much more do you need. The hole is going to be the same size.

I have a Lee 429-310 mould that I have not shot thru this gun yet, but I am not expecting any miracles, and the one consistant thing I have read is nothing over about 270-280 is going to stabilize with this slow twist rate.

Still others seem to get by with the bigger boolits in stock guns.

I know I want to rebarrel my Marlin 1894 carbine with micro groove barrel to a Ballard style1/20 twist barrel. I know that will work with boolits up to 320 gr and maybe more. I don't want to have to run a 300 gr boolit at 2000fps to get any accuracy. It would be brutal (45-70 brutal in a 6.5lb gun!) I guess you could run a 320 gr HP and punch a bigger hole thru yoru quarry, but with the faster twist barrel it should be very good down to 1000 fps, as that's where the pistol rounds run,,, with 1/20 twist barrels.

It all comes down to twist vs velocity = some acceptable spin rate. The longer the boolit, the faster it must spin to stabilize. If your twist rate is X and fixed, then you have to drive the bigger boolit faster to get it to spin faster. There is no other way. Bigger boolits going faster = more recoil/pain. So how fast can you stand to go? That's the level of accuracy you can expect.

There is obviously some serious trade offs to be considered here. What is enough power to do your intended job? What is too much to be able to shoot the gun? Aim for the best compromise of power versus accuracy versus shootability.

This comes up about once a month and there is alot of info here at the site on this subject.

Randy

fatelk
04-21-2012, 04:53 PM
Thanks guys, lots of good info. I took the darn thing out today and just got frustrated, as I always do with this rifle.

About the best I was able to do was 6"/100yds with 240gr jacketed. The 180gr factory jacketed rounds did perhaps slightly better but one flyer. My cast rounds did worse for accuracy, though little or no leading. I've never had any feeding problems with it, with SWCs or any others.

I need to look into lapping the barrel to see if that would help. I have thought about having it rebarreled, just didn't want to spend the money. I expect it would cost more than my dad paid for the rifle 20+ years ago, but the darn thing is pretty much worthless as it is now.

W.R.Buchanan
04-21-2012, 06:07 PM
Fat Elk: I doubt you'll see much better with factory loads. Mine won't shoot them anyways but sideways.

You'll do better with boolits.

Randy

Moondawg
04-21-2012, 06:30 PM
I am sort of in the same boat. I have a 1994 produced in 2009. The bore has a constriction at the exact spot of the rear sight dovetai. When I slugged the barrel, or course the constriction compressed the slug, at least a thounsendth or more. At that the slug mikes out at slightly over .432 grove diameter, and thats in the tight part. Best I have been able to get out of it with much working up of loads is 8" at 100 yards. The only cure for this gun will be a new barrel. I figure Marlin jammed the rear sight into the dovetail, causing the tight spot in the bore. I feel your pain.

largom
04-21-2012, 06:45 PM
After shooting jacketed bullets be sure to clean all copper out of the bore before shooting cast boolits.

Larry

lcclower
04-21-2012, 06:54 PM
My 1894 is a 1971 (pre safety), it had a sewer-pipe of a barrel, tight under the roll stamps and under the dovetails. I got 6" at 50 yards, tops.
Solution was to get it rebarreled with a takeoff Ballard rifled barrel from Dave Clay. New barrel slugged .429.
Now it shoots inside 6" at 100 with 240gr, RCBS gas checked bullets loaded really hot.
I plan on breaking it in with jacketed loads and then revisit the cast bullets, fire lap if need be.

Rrusse11
04-21-2012, 08:11 PM
Same old questions, here's the same answers.
1. Size boolit to bore + .001". Forget factory jacketed ammo.
2. COAL! The action, AND throat are factory designed and cut for 1.710".
Get the nose into the rifleing, hand lapping of the bore will help too.
R*2

bones37
04-21-2012, 09:21 PM
I too had the same experiences with a Marlin until I learned alot of very useful information here. I recently picked up a safe queen 1894 made around 1982 with the micro groove barrel just like the one I had some twenty odd years ago. Long story short, I sent a new RCBS 200 CM to Erik at Hollow Point Mold Service to modify the drive bands at .433" since my bore was fatter than "normal". Needless to say, I am impressed with the accuracy so far after figuring out what velocity that it likes, which seems to be in the 1200fps range for my particular rifle.

LUCKYDAWG13
04-21-2012, 09:30 PM
my 1894 was made in 1973 i shoot 270gr G/C boolits MP mold SIZED AT .432
shoot's good

Char-Gar
04-21-2012, 09:57 PM
When folks start to post about these Marlin 44 leverguns, they talk about bullet weight and that is only half of the picture. You have to add velocity to equation and I don't see folks doing that. Which bullets will and will not stabilize in a barrel with a given twist, considers both length of the bullet and velocity of the bullet.

I have a Marlin 1894 and it does quite well with cast bullets. I like to keep the velocity and recoil on the mild side so I like a powder charge of 10/Unique. With a 220-230 grain GC bullet, I get very good accuracy at this velocity. Change to a 250 grain or heavier bullet accuracy goes out the window.

Now if I take that same 250 grain GC bullet and push it behind 21 grains of 2400 the groups tighten up real well.

I have used the PB Keith bullet 429421 and only had mediorce results at any velocity. When I switched to the Thompson GC bullet at full snort velocities the accuracy is very good.

I size all of my bullets for this rifle .432, which is needed for these Microgroove barrels.

The COAL and feeding issues can be cured by filing the back of the cartridge carrier about .030 to allow a longer round to lift and feed. There are some good photo instructions for this somewhere on the Internet.

I do wish Marlin didn't use such a slow twist, but they make what they make. Dealing with this slow twist, requires attention to velocity and not just bullet length (weight).

Feed the right ammo these rifles are capable of accuracy in the 2 to 3 MOA range, which is about the same as a good Winchester 94 saddle carbine. Plenty good enough for what these rifles were designed to do. These ain't bench rest rifles boys!

Rrusse11
04-21-2012, 10:14 PM
Ayup to what Char-Gar just said!

It's a pistol cartridge! You want horsepower and heavy boolits, get a 444Marlin. Same thing applies as to velocity and boolit weight, it too, at least the older ones, have a slow twist. I've done the experiment with the Lee 300gr, at ~1200fps it keyholes, above 1600fps and it's a tack driver.
But really, if you want to shoot heavy stuff, get a 45/70 or 450M.
Hey, great excuse to buy some more lever actions.
{:o)
R*2

Az Rick
04-21-2012, 10:30 PM
I also have an 1894 of 1971 vintage. I have a Ranch Dog mould. It's a RNFP 265gn mould but with straight WW casts at 275grns.

The last time I shot it offhand at 50yrds 4 of the 5 rounds touched, I pulled the fifth.

1894's like fat bullets, try and beagle one of your moulds. .232-.233

Mine shoots good with 15grns of AA No.7, for plinking and most shooting.
You'll get it,... it'll just take a little work.

Good luck

fatelk
04-21-2012, 10:46 PM
My only purpose in trying some factory jacketed rounds was to see if there was anything I could get to shoot straight in it. I size my boolits to about .4305 because that's the sizer I have. My bore slugs at just under .430" (tighter than most, I hear). The only .44 mold I have that's not SWC is the Lee 310, which shoots abysmal in this rifle, at least with the load I tried (S&W 29 safe charge of H110).

I've been thinking about buying an Accurate mold, something like the 43-255V or 260B. It looks like to try to find some accuracy out of this gun I need to:
1. Buy another mold, preferably .432" or more
2. Buy another sizer, .432 or more
3. Probably lap the bore

OR

1. Shell out the money for a better barrel, one with the right rifling and twist for the cartridge.

I have heard from a couple sources that these rifles have a bad reputation for accuracy. I can see why, since most folks, even reloaders, will never shoot anything but factory ammo or factory jacketed bullets through them. If you have to tinker with them and fine tune a custom load to get them to shoot, then they are a pretty lousy rifle for the average guy.

Actually, I think I'll put an ad on the boolit trader, see if someone has some other boolit styles I could try before I buy a custom mold. Great Idea- wish I'd thought of it sooner!

fatelk
04-21-2012, 11:23 PM
I guess I should lay out my goals for a good load for this rifle. I am looking for a reasonably accurate load (3-4 moa or better), 240 to 260 grain non-gas-check, that is also a S&W safe full power load. I shoot my model 29s much more than the Marlin and am not a big fan of a lot of different loads.

I'm not a high volume shooter, even for the revolvers; probably no more than 2 or 300 rounds a year max for .44. I appreciate some light loads sometimes, but usually prefer standard power for caliber. To each their own; that's just what I prefer.

Also: my bore slugs .430". I see a lot of people recommending .432 or bigger. Will lapping affect bore diameter, or would a .431 sizer be the best bet?

EDK
04-22-2012, 02:24 AM
Go to lasc.us and read Glenn Fryxell's article on 1894 MARLINS...and the rest of them sometime too!

Go to ranch dogs site and get a .432 sizer...and a mould for TLC 432 265...my current favorite. I have a LYMAN 429640, but a two banger ain't my idea of high production. My 1894s feed 429244 pretty well also. Get the NOE or MIHEC version of the LYMANS and .432/.434 diameters if possible. My LYMAN 429667 is .431 as cast....LYMANS do not run oversize in my experience.

I shoot mostly plain base in an assortment of 44 magnum RUGER VAQUEROS...and I shoot 48+ rounds daily. A nice low end load is 7 to 7.5 grains of a number of powders. UNIQUE, HERCO, HP38/231, TITEGROUP all work in that range with 240 to 270 grain boolit weights. I size to .432 when possible and .431 if I have to. Some designs are tumble lubed, but almost all of them go through my STAR. You might want to slug the chambers of your S&W...some of them are reported to go .432/.433 also.

You can accumulate a lot of moulds in 44+ years of casting and pistol shooting.

:redneck::cbpour::guntootsmiley:

HDS
04-22-2012, 06:00 AM
I got two 44mag molds, both are Mihas H&G 503 4-cavity copy, one regular, one HP. I feel that if I do this right I won't need any other molds for my .44spl and magnum shooting. I am big on what Hickok45 said in one of his reloading videos, i.e. find a load you like and stick to it.

W.R.Buchanan
04-22-2012, 07:57 PM
FatElk: One of the beauties of these guns is that you have to tinker with them a little to get really good results. If it was as easy as shooting factory then we wouldn't like them, because everybody could do it.

They shoot good enough with factory loads for most people and the uses intended. Mine is just inside of 2" at 50 yards (iron sights) and that is 4" at 100. Even 8" at 100 is good enough to knock over a deer. Most won't push beyond that distance with iron sights anyway. A scope on the gun will tighten up things a bunch and give you an extra 50 yards. I don't see going beyond that for hunting purposes just cuz, although I shoot Cowboy Silhoutte to 200 yds. I don't hit anything but I still shoot, and believe me, it ain't the guns fault. I do give the 50 yd chickens and 100yd pigs holy hell.

Lyman 429244 SWC GC will work in your gun sized to .431. Your consideration on full power loads and loads compatable with your M29 is fine. 22 gr of H110 is 2 gr less than I shot routinely in my M29. It will give you about 1200FPS out of the revolver and 16-1700 ish from your rifle.

Trying to run a plain based bullet like these at 1700fps will probably cause problems. But since you're only shooting 2-300 per year there is no reason to not use gas checks. These will eliminate leading problems in both guns.

There is so many things to try with the .44's, it can be a real fun experience. Embrace the experience!

Randy

colt1960
04-22-2012, 08:47 PM
As others have mentioned I would consider a Ranch Dog mold. These are made to use in marlin rifles with oversided bores. You need to have your boolits .001 bigger than what your barrel slugs for any kind of tight groups. good luck getting every thing figured out with your rifle. Rick!!!!!!!

fatelk
04-23-2012, 01:06 AM
I've reread through this thread a couple times, and am hearing what you all are saying. Another member has generously loaned me a couple different molds to try (thanks Mark), but I am also interested in bore lapping.

I've searched and read some info on hand lapping. I understand that this can enlarge the muzzle area. Is this a concern on a non-target rifle? I'm thinking about reading up and giving this a try when I have time. Any tips would be appreciated.

Would fire lapping be better for this barrel? It sure looks like it would be easier, but I think with patience I could make the hand lapping work well.

I've looked at the 265 Ranch Dog mold. I'm about to the point where I will consider a gas check design if necessary, but would rather not if I don't have to. I do however dislike tumble lube designs. I used them for many years before I bought a lubesizer and I know they can work and work good, but I just have a personal preference for standard lube-groove bullets. I just don't see myself buying another TL mold. That said, I would be very curious to try a few Ranch Dog boolits in this rifle. Does anyone have a few they would consider selling or trading to me? I would just need a handful.


FatElk: One of the beauties of these guns is that you have to tinker with them a little to get really good results. If it was as easy as shooting factory then we wouldn't like them, because everybody could do it.
That's one way to put a positive spin on it.:) If I had more time to tinker I might enjoy it too.

HDS
04-23-2012, 02:07 AM
Trying to run a plain based bullet like these at 1700fps will probably cause problems. But since you're only shooting 2-300 per year there is no reason to not use gas checks. These will eliminate leading problems in both guns.

I've not had any problems with PB bullets at that velocity out of my Rossi. A normal load using Vihtavuori N110 will give that velocity out of a 20" barrel. About 1400fps out of a 6" revolver.

crappie-hunter
04-23-2012, 07:05 AM
I have fire-lapped several guns using Veral Smiths method with good success. Don't get in a hurry, it can be time consuming depending on the number of rounds needed to get the job done, but the results are worth the effort.

Here's a link, you will most likely need to buy his book to get his instructions. It's a good read anyway and should be in every new boolit casters library.

http://www.lbtmoulds.com/books.shtml

Rrusse11
04-23-2012, 09:08 AM
Fatelk,
No need to restrict yourselt to tumble lubing TL design boolits. RD himself is experimenting with a lubrisizer, and I'm waiting on a die for my "new" pair of lubricators, an antique Ideal and Lyman 45 that I obtained last week.
One of the reasons I like the design principle so much is that I'm not restricted to
the stock crimp groove. As stated, I like looong cartridges, get that nose into
the rifling. A major factor IMO and experience in getting things to shoot.
YMMV, and probably will, but I'd suggest it's worth a try. I've never bothered
with lapping, lol, just shoot a lot! That'll work.
Good luck and keep at it, accuracy is often incremental, lots of little things add up.
Cheers,
R*2

pistolman44
04-23-2012, 11:14 AM
I bought a new 1894 about 15 years ago. I took it out to the range to try it out then. I had some reloads that were Hornady 430" X 240grJHP with H110 powder that I had for my revolvers. At 50 yrds from a rest 5 shot group was around an inch. Put it back in the safe and never shot it again. I guess I lucked out and got a good one. And now I just bought a new 1895 GBL that I will be playing with. Going go cast for this one. Just got on the list for a NOE mold 460-350 group buy.

kelbro
04-23-2012, 12:01 PM
Mine (Ballard rifled) shoots the Winchester white box 240 gr into 2" at 100yds (with a scope).

Shoots the RD 265gr into 3-4" at 100yds.

Doesn't feed the Keith PB or Thompson GC bullets very well so I don't mess with them.

It shoots the 310gr Lee GC better than I expected, 4-5" at 100yds.

Frank
04-23-2012, 03:19 PM
Here's a target from my Model 92 at 100 yards. It has microgroove rifling which is actually supposed to be great for cast bullets. The narrow rifling minimizes bullet deformation. The downside of the rifle is the twist is slow, but that just means you have to push it.

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=5278