Help needed 38-40 ????

[rbertalotto]

Today I picked up an original 1873 Winchester in 38-40. I know zero about this cartridge so I'll ask a few questions and hopefully the folks here will have a few answers.

#1) Black Powder only?
#2) If folks are shooting smokeless, what powders?
#3) 41 cal, correct. What is a reasonable Lee mold?
#4) Where can I get brass?
#5) Who makes dies for this cartridge?

THANKS!

[coyotebait]

I saw your post on the rifle you picked up, nice find. I am glad you are sticking with the original caliber. I have no first hand experience with the 38-40 but saw an article in Handloader magazine regarding it and its sister cartridge. The article is in the August 2011 issue number 273. You can certainly use mild smokeless loads. Starline makes brass and I have always had good service from it in several other calibers and you can get it direct from the factory.
coyotebait

[hydraulic]

I use starline brass, too. My '73 was made in '86 so it's black powder only for me. Others use light charges of smokeless, but I don't want to chance it with a rifle that's over 100 yrs. old. I also have a SAA Colt in .38-40, and it could be used with smokeless-manufactured in 1897-but, again, I know I'm safe using black powder. Bullet mould is an RCBS 40-180, same one I use for my S&W Sigma .40.

[BCall]

1- Don't know, can't help you there.
2- I've been using Trail Boss.
3- Technically a 40 cal, the Lee 40-175-TC can be made to work, but there is no crimp groove. Can work provided it casts large enough for whatever your bore measures. Can crimp on the forward edge. The RCBS 40-180 is a better option, and with black you can crimp on the forward edge and be in good shape.
4- Starline brass is the best IMO.
5- Lee makes dies, but I prefer the Hornady ones. Redding and RCBS make them as well.

[rbertalotto]

Thanks folks

I ordered 200 pieces of brass, wads and a compression die from Track of the Wolf

I ordered a set of Lee dies from Titan Reloading

I ordered a Lyman #401043 mold from Custom Cast Bullets on Ebay.


Now I just need to decide if I'm going to reline the barrel and chamber myself or have someone do it. The price to buy the barrel drill and barrel liner is $200 and I can rent a reamer for $36. Just about the exact same price to have Redman do it. But I can do it in a day, not sure how long a gunsmith would take. I need this rifle in action ASAP for CAS this summer.

I have the lathe and I've rebarreled dozens of rifles so I'm not concerned about being able to do it, I just won't have any need for the drill ($103) once this rifle is done....Sure wish I could rent or borrow a barrel drill.

We'll see

[runfiverun]

magma engineering makes a mold that has a crimp groove in the correct place for cartridge oal.
it's 200 grs and usually pours at 402 with ww's and some tin. [mine does]
the biggest thing is if the die puts the shoulder in the right place for the chamber.
7 grs of unique is a bit smokey on the cases but is below 14k in pressure.
i had to have my rcbs die milled off the bottom to get the shoulder proper for my chamber.

[Charley]

Have a 1906 production 1892 in .38/40. IME, Lyman's 401043 is THE mold for the caliber. I mostly shoot BP, but light smokeless will work as well. Pretty much everybody produces brass now, thanks to the Cowboy Slaction shooters. Take your pick, RP, Win, or Starline. Most everybody produces dies as well. I've had good results with Lee, but you can buy them from anybody.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I load 38-40 for my 73 using Lyman 401043, which is said to be the original bullet. It was made for use with BP and when using a proper charge of smokeless; I crimped in back of the front band and the OAL was too long for the carrier. Crimping on the front of the front band with a Lee crimping die produced the proper OAL for feeding, but beat up the case mouths...not a good thing with brass that is thin to start with. I solved the prob by trimming back the case length the same amount as the length of the front band so that the regular crimp behind the band does not make the round too long for the carrier. Nominal charges of smokeless that produce an MV of around 1200 fps are ok and shoot well, but 73 actions are not considered to be strong and there is no sense in pushing things. I use Starline brass. LLS

[rbertalotto]

Thanks folks......all good advise!

[w30wcf]

rbertalotto,
As was mentioned, the 401043 has no crimp groove and was designed to be used with black powder bullet which supported the base of the bullet. Using that bullet with smokeless, the bullet can telescope into the case in the magazine.

Using a Lee FCD which will form its own crimp groove will hold the 401043 in place as will removing about .10" from the base of the sizing die so that the neck will extend below the base of the bullet thus supporting it (assuming at least 10 bhn bullets).

BLACK POWDER....
The 401043 will run for many shots accurately (50+) with Swiss b.p. since it is moist burning like the powders were in the late 1800's when the 401043 was designed. However, with Goex, Schuetzen & Diamondback, expect to clean after every 10-12 shots to maintain accuracy. With KIK powder, after about 20.


The bullet that will work with Goex, Schuetzen, Diamondback & KIK is the Accurate
Mold 40-185C due to its larger lube capacity. http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=40-185C-D.png

SMOKELESS....
Smokeless 38-40 cartridges were introduced in 1895 and the box indicated that they be used in the 1873 & 1892 Winchester rifles. Published velocity was 1,300 f.p.s. with the 180 gr bullet. The original 38-40 smokeless load was 16 grs of DuPont NO 2 Bulk smokeless which filled the case capacity. 4227 is its equivalent but does not fill the case capacity.

In the early 1900's, a switch was made to Sharpshooter powder. Sharpshooter was a dense type powder. Today, 2400 is close to it in burning rate. Alliant shows 13.0/2400/1,305 fps / 13,400 CUP.

Have fun!
w30wcf

[rbertalotto]

w30wcf

THANK YOU very much. At this point I'll be shooting BP and smokeless. The Lyman bullet is for BP and I'll probably use a cheap LEE six cavity for plinking rounds over one of the BP smokeless substitutes.

Thanks again!

[UBER7MM]

rbertalotto,

The walls of the 38-40 Win cases are very thin. Be very gentle and careful when sizing, expanding and seating those cases. IIRC, I read somewhere a while back that the 38-40 isn't very popular as a Cowboy Shooter because of the difficulty of reloading. Then I saw one case mouth smashed and the theory was proved. The dies were the little Lyman 310 nutcracker style mounted in a Lee brench press with a 7/8"x14 thread adapter to make the set up work.

Hornady and RCBS both make 38-40 Winchester die sets.

MidwayUSA carries 38-40 cases as well as others:

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=38-40+cases

I hope this helps,

[rbertalotto]

Thanks!

Unfortunately Midway will not ship reloading supplies to the People Republic of Massachusetts! So I ordered them from Track of the Wolf.

[FromTheWoods]

Once your dies are properly adjusted, it is a breeze to reload.


Ever since I began reading reloading/shooting forums (13+ years), I have read the time-worn horror story of reloading those overly fragile .38-40 cases. I'd say they are wives' tales, but most wives don't reload.

Seems that those who set their dies properly live happily ever after with this cartridge.