Hard cast soft points

[Balduran]

I have been thinking alot as of late on the subject of hard cast soft points for my 444. What i have been pondering is the idea of having a mold made up that sprue end was the diameter of the bullet I wanted to cast's metplat and the body about 22 caliber with a few lube groove type protrusions. after these were cast out of a soft alloy I could heat them up in an oven and as needed put them in my 444 mold and cast a hard alloy over them.
Has anybody heard or done this? i was hoping for some feedback before i invested in a custom mold that may not work out.

Thanks, Jody

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Jody,

Right up front know that I have NOT tried anything even close to what your thinking of.

But, saying that, I would then ask why do you want to go to all that trouble?

I would suggest checking with 444 shooters here and then for sure go to the Marlin Owners Forum and check in with the .444 cast boolit shooters there.

Some folk successfully make a softnose cast boolit, but after my reading and the experience I have had with a cast 45/70 boolit with a Wide Flat Nose (WFN), I again ask, why?

If the WFN cast boolit was not so very/extremely effective in taking game I might see the effort being worth it to make a composite boolit. However, I don't!

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Mk42gunner]

Jody,

read this thread: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=11749

BruceB went to a lot of trouble to get a system that works, I have used it to make softnosed boolits, unfortunately I haven't got to try them on there intended targets yet.

Robert

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Robert,

One thing about your post is the sad thing that Bruce of Babore is no longer making molds.

Something about his business changing hands or something.

Sad, he made my last mold and it is very high quality.

Plus, he was over the top with information and even went to the point of calling me. WOW!

CDOC

[EDK]

IIRC LYMAN made some moulds to cast a two piece boolit like you describe. Some sources used a pair of lead pots...soft and hard alloys...and a calibrated dipper to pour the soft nose; then top it off with the hard alloy. The results were labor intensive and no prize for looks or accuracy. I don't know where you could find the proper used molds, BUT I'd contact Tom at ACCURATE MOLDS...he seems to be extremely customer oriented and could probably make the two molds you'd need. Probably not cheap, but a realistic price for time and effort to produce them. AND if the cast soft nose didn't work out, you'd still have a d*** good mold to produce the complete boolit design out of....you would only "waste" the cost of the mould producing the soft nose portion.

FWIW, IF it was a good idea, they'd still be making them. I'd go the cheaper way and use a gas checked/soft/heavy for caliber boolit lubed with LLA or 45/45/10 OR have someone swage some similar half jacket bullets. Some good ideas end up a lot more work or cost than they're worth. The Good Lord knows I've wasted a lot of money on various projects that didn't work out!

:redneck::cbpour::guntootsmiley:

[Balduran]

thanks for the replies. sometimes the goal isnt as important as the journey.

[chief3]

I read in The Muzzle-Loading Caplock Rifle by Ned Roberts that two piece bullets were common in muzzle loading target rifles in the late 1800,s. They were cast in two molds and were swaged together. Only they had a hard point and a soft base so the bullet was not damaged in loading but the base upset on firing.
Also one half had a cone shaped hole which the other half was shaped to fit into.
You may want to give that a try. Only reversed of course.

[runfiverun]

just pour the soft nose then the hard base and heat the mold in the alloy pot until the alloy in the mold melts then dump it into a bucket of water.
they look ugly but shoot pretty well.

[longbow]

If you take a look through the old Ideal catalogue in this link you will see several boolits made using body and nose cast in two moulds:

http://www.castpics.net/subsite/HistMolds/1929_Ideal_Catalog.pdf

EDK is also right, Lyman used to make moulds to cast two piece boolits that were epoxied together.

I have successfully used the two dipper/two pot method to cast Lyman 457125 500 gr. boolits with pure lead noses and wheelweight bodies. I was not so successful using the method to cast Lyman 314299's for my .303. Not enough lead volume I think.

I think the BruceB method is a better bet.

I have also tried using pre-cast noses of soft lead dropped into the mould then casting a wheelweight body but unless the mould, alloy and pre-cast nose were all HOT! I got a poor bond or obvious seam... back to the BruceB method. I think that is why you do not see these types of moulds anymore. It is difficult to cast onto a "cold" pre-cast nose and if you are going to heat it up to melting or almost melting then you really don't need a two piece mould.

So, the short story is do what runfiverun says... except they don't have to be ugly, I have made some that were quite attractive!

Longbow

[Balduran]

using that method how do you get a consistant weight/volume with the soft pour?

[runfiverun]

cut off cartridge case.

[Wolfer]

I tried Ross Seyfrieds method when he had the article in handloader using a cut off cartridge case and a pot inside a pot. I could see the seam on most, broke a couple off with my fingers, the ones that came out good when tested were about as hard on the nose as the base so I know they mixed. If I ever see the need I'll try Paco Kelly's method of detempering the nose, which Ive done but in a small amount of water so the difference wasn't that much.
I believe Bruce Bs method followed exactly is the best method other wise your better off with a tough alloy and a small HP

John Haviland I believe had an article in handloader a few years back about splitting the nose with a piece of alum foil laid between the mold halves that he says worked. Can't do it on Lee molds because of the alignment pins.

I do have 1 cavity HP by Erik on my 44 and 45 Keith type molds for my handguns but question how necessary they are. Like CDOCoot said that wide meplat works pretty good

[longbow]

Like I said, I cast 457125's using the two dipper method and got boolits with no visible seam except colour change in the lead. I filled the bore riding nose portion with pure lead using a small homemade dipper then filled the remaining body portion using wheelweights ~ with everything running hot.

I got no visible seam except a colour change in the lead and they were bonded solid. I did expansion testing with those and they opened up into perfect large mushrooms with no separation at the joint.

There was probably some mixing over a short length at the joint but with boolits that large in diameter and long there was still lots of pure lead nose.

When I tried the same method using the Lyman 314299, I got poor joints and obvious seams. I think the smaller diameter was largely to blame. I did not reheat the mould to remelt the combined boolits but that would have fixed it.

I suspect the two dipper method is best for large caliber and heavy boolits. Besides which, it is a bit of a pain with so much stuff to handle quickly.

I haven't tried the Paco Kelly method but it seems like a good idea too.

A guy normally isn't making hundreds of these so if it takes a while to cast 20 or so not a big deal ~ to me anyway.

I think the two mould system is a waste of money.

Longbow

[grouch]

I think LBT makes a mold for 2 piece soft point bullets.
Grouch

[Mk42gunner]

Robert,

One thing about your post is the sad thing that Bruce of Babore is no longer making molds.

Something about his business changing hands or something.

Sad, he made my last mold and it is very high quality.

Plus, he was over the top with information and even went to the point of calling me. WOW!

CDOC

Crusty,
It was Bruce B from Nevada, not Babore that came up with the method in the link.


using that method how do you get a consistant weight/volume with the soft pour?

Whn I did it I used a .375 swaged round ball, originally meant for a cap & ball revolver. IT really doesn't matter what you use, as long as it will fit into the mold, since yopu remelt it in the mold.

One thing, don't use a heavily oxidized nose piece; you need clean metal to bond together, just like soldering to pieces of metal.

Robert

[Jeffrey]

This begs the question "What is it for?". If the answer is "for the journey"... I wish I had that much time and money.
I am picking up some information on the 429 calibre. A friend with a Dan Wesson 44 mag has taken 2 elk, broadside shots, boolits exited. Rounds were Buffalo Bullets 310gr +P+. He said recoil is brutal.
He took 4 whitetail deer with his 444 Marlin using the Hornady 265gr LeveRevolution ammo. The only bullet he recovered came from a buck he shot in the chest facing him. The bullet penetrated over 36 inches of deer and was found near the deer's genitals. DRT
50% expansion is considered good. .429 is roughly 30 calibre X 50% expansion.
Before spending the time and money having a custom mould made and casting dual metal boolits, try shooting some 240, 265, and 310gr boolits through water jugs, wet newspaper, or ballistics gelatin. See if any of those fit your needs.
I recently started a thread along the lines of "what boolit weight in the 444 Marlin". http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=149888 . Lots of good information there. I ordered a 265gr Ranch Dog mould this morning.
Lots of good guys on this site too. I know that if asked nicely many would be willing to send you some boolits to try. I'b be first in line but don't have my mould yet.
Realize what you have with the 444, its power and capabilities. Time and money spent making dual metal boolits for it could probably be better used practicing with the gun.
Far be it for me to tell another man how to spend his time and money though.
Jeffrey

[BruceB]

Since a link to my softpointing method was posted early in the thread, I saw no need to chime in.


However, Jeffry's comment above spurs me to say:

gents, there is no need to spend ONE EXTRA NICKEL to make good softpoints. If you have a mould, you can make the bullets. It's as simple as that.

[Balduran]

Ok thanks for the info all. I already use the 300 RanchDog which I like quite a bit, I will Try your Method first Bruce thanks. I did read it before posting however i was thinking that in a four cavity mold it would be a hassle. No reason i cant start out using one cavity till i get it worked out i suppose.
I work a camp job two weeks in and two weeks out so time for casting reloading and shooting is abundant, unfortunatly it may be too much time as I have a tendancy to want to reinvent the wheel and follow sinatra's footsteps "doing it my way".
I realize that keeping the core hot and strait in the mold with my idea would be a bit of an obsticle and likely would be a waste of time, its been bubbling in the cavity my brain used to be in for awhile so as i try bruce's idea i see if it gets exercized.
Thanks all for your input once again, i love this site and i have learned much from all of you in the short time i have been on here nosing around.

And a special thanks to the Sagacious one for his insites on lead temps .

Jody