dacron fillers???

[buck1]

I have never used a filler of any kind other than good old gun powder. But my new to me book , carefully sugests that dacron may be a good thing in CBs.
Any comments on this??
Can you use this stuff in bottle neck cases?
what kind of effects on pressure does it have?
Does it permit higher pressure use with out damaging the boolit?
Your thoughts please..... Buck

[Buckshot]

.................I have never used a filler of any kind other than good old gun powder. But my new to me book , carefully suggests that dacron may be a good thing in CBs."

"Any comments on this??"

But of course! :D

"Can you use this stuff in bottle neck cases?"

You bet. Straight cases too.

"What kind of effects on pressure does it have?"

Increases pressures.

"Does it permit higher pressure use with out damaging the boolit?"

Ummmmm, dunno that one for sure. Seems to provide some base protection, to a point. Most notably PB's as they're the most succeptable anyway.

First of all, do not kid yourself, nor should you believe it if you hear someone say that XXXX powder is "Not Position Sensitive". What they really mean is that it has a tendancy to be LESS position sensitive then some other powder. ALL powder is sensitive to it's position in the case and how much extra airspace it has to deal with, in order to burn at top efficiency.

Secondly, lots of people use a filler, and I'm one of them and heartily recommend it's intelligent use. However there may be more people who do not use it, and would recommend that you do not either. There have been incedences where chambers or barrels have been ringed, and the usual culprit that is blamed is a filler or a 'Wad'. You will have to make the decision yourself either based on your own results or other's recomendations.

A filler, whether it is fluffy Dacron, Kapok, cotton, a bit of toilet paper, or a ground solid like GREX, will cause higher pressures. One reason is because it's in the case taking up some space, and/or it may have to be ejected from the muzzle, so it is additional work for the expanding gasses.

The other reason it raises pressure is because it has the powder charge placed against the primer, wher eht eprimer may do the most good. Pressure is also a measure of efficiency. An example: When I was shooting 43gr cast boolits from my M112 Savage 223 with it's 26" barrel, I started out for fun with tiny charges of Bullseye.

Bullseye is easy to ignite and is a high energy powder and little charges like 2.7gr in a 38 Special does usefull work propelling a relatively heavy slug. In the 223 I didn't use a filler. With the lightest charges, if you just laid a round in the action and closed the bolt and fired, the slug would NOT exit the muzzle. Instead it would lodge at some distance in the barrel and the gas would escape with a hiss from around the case.

Now if after loading the round, you were to elevate the muzzle and THEN fire it, the slug would not only exit, but would do so with about 600 fps velocity. What was the difference? EVERYTHING was the same except the powder was against the primer instead of lying at random along the bottom of the case. There was no filler to build pressure, yet the powder orientation certainly caused an increase in pressure.

The Handloader magazine editor Dave Scoville once did a test, using the 45 Colt as one of the larger pistol cartridges, to determine which of several common powders for that cartrudge were LEAST position sensitive. These were not accuracy tests. He tested by drawing and firing from a hollster (powder against the bullet) for the first shot then merely regaining the target and firing each subsequent shot.

He then tested muzzle up and coming down on the target to bias the powder against the primer. Also muzzle down and coming up on the target. It went about as you'd suspect. Powder against the primer registered higher velocities (pressure) and tighter stats. Powder against the bullet's base produced the lowest average velocities and random powder placement was midline and had the worst average stats. FYI, W231 proved the least position sensitive for the powders he used.

So there you have a fillers main job. To orient the powder to the primer consitantly from shot to shot.

I don't think anyone will argue the fact re: powder orientation, as that's easily proven. A question remains though, aimed at the ringing issue and is, does the filler consitute a projectile? The problem with the entire issue is that it HAS happened, but it has NOT happened to everyone who uses fillers. I will mention that I have used fillers for a long time and in many many differnet catridges, pressures, and case designs and volumns. I've used Dacron since forever, and have also used the ground poly granuals made popular in shotgun shells to buffer the shot column.

I do have an instance to share where I did ring some brass cases. The particulars were that I had been loading 45-70's with Unique, cast boolits and a Dacron wad. That was no problem. I then got the dazzeling idea to forgo the Dacron and to use an actual cardwad over the powder. These were punched out of tablet backer cardboard and were pushed down on top of the powder with a wooden dowel. The edges of the cardwad were angled up as the interior casewalls tapered inward.

I fired and reloaded these cases many times with this load. One day sittng at the bench at the range, I noticed an odd rumpled appearance to an empty case lying there. You could see the annular rings around the case maybe 1/2" and less, below the casemouth. If you really paid attention, you could barely feel them by running a fingertip over them. I looked at all the rest in that batch of 20 and they all displayed the same appearance. My supposition is that the one piece cardwad was forced forward against the bullet's base, there to expand radially, exerting enough outward pressure to compress the brass between itself and the chamber wall.

The fact that these rings appeared in the same region of the case and NOT in the same spot was due to the fact that the boolit's base could very well have been in different spots, due to varying circumstances at ignition. I still use cardwads on PB slugs in the 45-70, 40-65, 11mm Mauser and .43 Spanish, but these are against the base of the boolit and NOT over the powder.

On the other hand, I cannot understand how a fine fiberous material such as Dacron (finely spun polyester) could perform the same as the cardwad? First of all, it weighs practicly nothing for the volumn it occupies. We have to accept the fact that the interior of a cartridge case is a pretty violent place when the primer fires. Many of us have seen powder grain impacts on boolit bases, so there is quite a velocity imparted to them. How then could a wisp of Dacron become a primery projectile?

It's obvious the powder does not ignite spontaneously. It doesn't sit trapped between the case's base and the Dacron, with the Dacron then somehow becoming converted into a solid molten gelatinous (thanks Ammohead :-) mass, to then all of a sudden at some precise moment, hurtle forward to smack into the boolit's base. Without question things happen rapidly when the primer fires, but when it does, everything inside the case begins to move. In my mind I see the Dacron blown around and apart in the case, as are the powder grains violentley circulated around.

If you use a correct amount of Dacron, there is nothing visible ejected from the muzzle. If you happen to use too much, you will see wisp's of it floating around a few feet from the muzzle. I have used Dacron with powders as fast as Unique, and as slow as TCCI 5010. I've used it in cases from the 223 to the 577-450 and as of yet have not had the first problem, over years and years of use.

The other filler you may hear of is Grex, or Poly Buffer. Grex was Winchester's trade name for their ground poly shot buffer. It's no longer available on the market as a component. However several places carry essentially the same stuff. Like Graf & Sons carries Ballistic's Products' "Ballistic Buffer". It's a finely divided polyethylene solid. Whatever it's real name is currently, lots of users still call it 'Grex'. Short sweet and a handy name.

In the use of this as a filler I use it in cases where the charge occupies a good percentage of the available volumn. Notably 70% or more, and then with slow powders. I would not load a 70% charge of 4064 and then fill the balance of the case with a compressed load of Grex in say, the 30-06. The grea is fine enough to mingle with the powder, especially extruded powder. In it's use after the charge is loaded I place enough to half fill the remaining room and compress it, then finish filling and compress that, or let the boolit do the final compression.

In this instance it's not so much powder orientation as the case already has a goodly amount of powder in it, so it's position isn't so much an issue. This is used more for the simple building of pressure so as to allow the powder to burn efficiently. You're making the powder think it's a full case scenario. In addition, especially in a BN cartidge case, the powder has to force the grex out of the case, and up through the neck.

It's interesting in that on occasion I've extracted a case and had a little plastic ring come out with it. What this is, is grex that was forced into that tiny region in the chamberneck area that the caseneck didn't fully fill. These rings aren't always fully fused, and may be crumbled between your fingers to a degree. Yet the pressure and heat has been sufficient to bring this trapped grex up almost solid.

A filler doesn't always guarentee the best accuracy, so it's not a total answer, yet it works so well so often that I will always use it when working up loads, where it might be applicable. You will have to weigh the issue in your own mind and decide for yourself whether it's worthwhile, or for that matter even safe.

................Buckshot

[BlueMoon]

I have used a dacron ball (pillow stuffing) with real light loads of pistol powders and tried to make sure I had enough to push it down over the powder, with screwdriver, that none would leak around the wad. Mostly 30/30 and 30-06 (and a couple of other calibers).

I have some of the WW Grex but have been afraid to try any because of shaking around and mixing with the powder and making a dud load and sticking a bullet in the barrel.

I have mostly gotten away from using any fillers and use the powders like #2400, 4227, 4198, 5744, or 4759 that don't really need any. For better hard cast gc loads mostly use the 4895, 4064, RL-7, 4320, or 3031 at 2000fps or better.

For fast pistol powders and just target shooting with light plain base bullets, I don't use fillers and just tilt the rifle up before shooting. But have not tried this enough to see if a bit of dacron would have helped or not.

Bill

[StarMetal]

Bob Forker just wrote an article on the 38-40 in the next months Guns & Ammo. He used a variety of powders in it and one of them wasn't position sensitive, but he said the 38-40 capacity is so larger that it in effect turned the small volume of non-position sensitive powder in that cavernous case to sensitive. His solution was to use a Dacron filler. To my surprise, and wrongly not only by my standards and other's here on the forum, he waded it atop the powder leaving a big air space between it and the base of the bullet. Don't do this!

This article does show that even non position sensitive powders in some instances should be positioned. Also showed someone is basically a reloading expert doing something wrong wading that Dacrom atop the powder.

Joe

[Leftoverdj]

I use fillers off and on, but not in anything expensive or irreplaceable. Mostly, I've used dacron to hold flake powders in place. It ain't gonna work with ball powders. Half a grain to a grain of fluff is the right amount, depending on case size. Once had the addition of a half grain run 50 yard groups from about 2" to over 6" with a PB bullet. Orienting the powder to the rear of the case produced about the same results. My best guess is that I was running the pressures up over the capabilities of that bullet and alloy. That was a rarity, though.

I've also used cornmeal and grits in straight cases as Buckshot uses Grex. On occasion, this has given a considerable improvement. Seems to have some of the qualities of a GC as well as helping ignition uniformity. Also has scouring qualities. Cleaning is a snap after a session with these.

[bravokilo]

I do have an instance to share where I did ring some brass cases. The particulars were that I had been loading 45-70's with Unique, cast boolits and a Dacron wad. That was no problem. I then got the dazzeling idea to forgo the Dacron and to use an actual cardwad over the powder. These were punched out of tablet backer cardboard and were pushed down on top of the powder with a wooden dowel. The edges of the cardwad were angled up as the interior casewalls tapered inward. ....Buckshot

Interesting you should mention that. I had a similar experience, 45-70, Unique, and card wads. IIRC I used cardboard from cereal boxes. I wasn't quite as fortunate and ended up with a ring in the chamber. The rifle is a Rem RB with a Numrich 1 1/8 octagon barrel so having the barrel cut off and rechambered wasn't a problem. Getting the "gunsmith" to work on it though....that's another story! I still find it hard to believe that a thin little piece of cardboard would hold that much pressure, but I can't argue with the evidence!! Here's a peek-

http://photos.gunloads.com/thumbs/bravokilo/ring.jpg

BK

[buck1]

Well I will not be useing the cardboard wads!!!!but the dracon seems to have a lot to offer. I have alwaly been spooked by fillers, they just seemed like a strange way to get there. But from what I read it should be no problim as long as I work up my load with it from the begining.
On the rings ,,did the brass/primers show high pressure?
Thanks for the great help guys!!!!!!////////////buck

[bravokilo]

This happened about 30 yrs ago, but I don't recall any signs of high pressure. The explaination usually given for this is the air being compressed between the wad and the base of the bullet. It seems odd to me that a thin cardboard wad would hold that kind of pressure, but that's where the ring appeared-at the base of the bullet. Didn't really notice it right away, no difficult extraction or anything. Got to be a little hard on the brass though!! NO AIRSPACE between a wad and the bullet!!

BK

[carpetman]

Starmetal---Bob Forker just wrote an article. Did he do this by himself or consult with you? Was just wondering if you met the Forker?

[Buckshot]

The post:

"It may also be because of the slight neck in the .43 Mauser case. Fiber fill like Dacron behaves very differently in necked cartridges than in straight walled ones. Current thinking on such fillers is to limit them to straight walled cartridges. While the .43 Mauser doesn't have much of a neck, it may be enough to momentarily hang up the wad of Dacron and causing it to be ripped it to shreds. The current filler of choice for necked cartridges is Pufflon, which extensive ballistic lab tests have shown to be immune to that problem. While pricy, nothing in the BP cartridge world appears to be cheap."

My response:

.........This is interesting. I've used bales of dacron over the years in cartridges from the 223 to the 577-450, which includes many straight walled cases, and have only noticed that if you used too much you'll see it floating in the air a few feet from the muzzle. Didn't make any difference if the case was necked or not.

The primary use of dacron with smokless powder is basicly for one reason. That is to keep the powder charge oriented against the primer in a consistant manor. Used correctly it's consumed in the combustion of the powder charge.

I'm curious as to whom the 'current thinking' on dacron in straight walled cases is attributed. Is this a group of people, and where is this info? As to a 'wad' of dacron hanging up on the neck is concerned, dacron in the case should not be a wad of this type. When the primer ignites it involves a good portion of the powder charge. However at the same time it blows the dacron and a portion of the charge forward against the base of the bullet.

Anyone who has collected fired bullets for inspection has noticed definative granual imprints on the unprotected base of a lead bullet. Even if a cardwad is used, a look at it will show impressions. In this environment the dacron used in the case to orient the powder is going to be all over the place, or partially consumed.

Since the dacron was loaded into the case as a loose bunch or tuft of fibers, and pushed down enough to contact the powder, it constitutes no solid mass to hang up on anything. In the group of 6 to 7 cast bullet shooters I shoot with every Tuesday, and the 600+ members of the Cast Bullets BB, I have heard of Pufflon being mentioned a couple times. I don't know who it might be the filler of choice, for.

Rick

His answer to my query:

"Pick up a copy of any current reloading manual (Lee, Lyman, Hornady, etc) that is backed by a ballistics lab and you'll find cautionary notes on fillers and the absence of recommendations in necked cartridges. Whether you believe ballistic labs or not is up to you. However for Dacron or any filler to be consumed at the time of firing it would have to have a burn rate as fast or faster than the powder used, which would also contribute to the explosive gases generated. While it may be pulverized and melted, it can’t be consumed prior to leaving the case without being a propellant itself.

Fillers from cream of wheat to toilet tissue have been used successfully since the advent of cartridge cases and will undoubtedly continue to be used. However, the practice is neither benign nor without risk, particularly in necked cartridges. Obviously the amount used vs. case volume, burning characteristics and pressures generated will all affect behavior. Pufflon, which is more expensive than powder and as obnoxious to work with as unpacking a box 90% filled with foam peanuts, was developed to overcome the noted short comings of traditional fillers. From my experience in a number of BP cartridges (including the .43 Mauser), it appears to live up to its claims, but only time will tell whether it has as yet undiscovered shortcomings other than high price and maddening handling qualities.

The question was why Dacron behaved differently in 45-70 vs. the .43 Mauser, which on casual comparison have a lot in common…except for the slight neck in the .43 Mauser."

.............I won't belabor the subject further with my response other then to say I have seen no 'different' reaction when using dacron in the 6.5mm Swede, 7x57, 30-30, 30-40, 30-06, 7.65x53, 7.62x54R, 43 Spanish, 45-70, 45-90, 577-450, 40-65, 38-55, 11.5x43 Comblain, 43 Mauser, 444 Marlin, or 35 Rem (I think I left some out) :lol:

.............Buckshot

[buck1]

Buckshot, as always, I found your posts to be helpfull and informitive!!! I read the offical info in the books , but wanted some real life opinions.
Thanks to all for the input, it does show that at least the "fillers" tend to be user sensitive. That is, its not only what you put in the pot , but how you stir ir it as well!!

All of us may not agree on everything , but I belive we all have each others best intrests at heart!!! ;) Thanks again all......Buck

[Rod B]

Very interesting post, thanks buckshot.

I have used dacron filler in .45/70 cases using light charges (14 to 15 gr) of Unique. This has given consistant results & I have never encountered any problems using this procedure.

I use the 5/8" x 1/4" square as recommended in the Lyman loading manual & have not been able to find any of these wads after firing. This leads me to believe that the dacron is entirely consumed by the powder charge.

This is my first post on this forum, thanks to who ever created this informative site. It looks like there are many here with far more knowledge than I. Hoping I will be able to absorb some of this wisdom. [smilie=l:

Rod :wink:

[BruceB]

Gentlemen;

I hadn't chimed in here simply because Buckshot (as usual) was holding up rather well in both the explanation end as well as the defence of dacron fill. Seems like he could use a little backup now, however.

My use of dacron fill extends back quite a ways, and I experiment with it in ANY rifle cartridge I happen to work with. It doen't always prove out as useful in every combination, but the majority of my smokeless-powder cast-bullet rifle loads DO contain dacron as a filler...VERY LOOSELY INSTALLED, not as a "wad" which to me means a dense mass of some material.

The cartridges in which I currently use it number about two dozen, ranging from the petite (6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer) to the massive (.416 Rigby, .404 Jeffery) and the single straight case I'm running right now, the .45-70.

Every single one of the calibers I load has shown benefits from using dacron in at least some loads. My annual round count for CB rifle loads nears 10,000 in particularly busy shooting years, and rarely ever will fall below 5,000. At least 90% of this ammo will have dacron installed. My troubles, incidents or aberrations arising from using the stuff amount to ...ZERO. ONLY in straight cases??? HORSE PUCKEY!

In MOST cases (not all) velocity is very slightly higher with dacron compared to no-dacron with an identical load. In MOST cases, accuracy is better (one example: my .303 gave a 1.3" group WITH dacron, and over FOUR inches without dacron..no other change. Extreme example, most are nowhere near this dramatic). In MOST cases, extreme spread and standard deviation are lower when using dacron, again compared to identical loads without the fill. These results have proven to my satisfaction that the dacron works for ME. I'd feel bereft if it was removed from my list of resources for cast-bullet handloading.

I have insufficient experience with granular-type fillers to offer an informed opinion.

On occasion people will raise opinions from elsewhere, either published or from other Internet sites, which are contrary to things that we, here, have determined to be fact. Some folks are unaware of the depth of experience and research which exist ON THIS SITE, and fail to accord the place the respect which it deserves. To them I say, THIS is where you will find the real facts of cast-bullet shooting for the non-specialists. We aren't all target competitors (but some are). We're not all ardent CB hunters (but some are). We aren't all BPCR, or SASS, or IPSC, or IHMSA, or Civil War re-enactors....but some of us are some of those things. The word is "eclectic"...this Board is an eclectic mix of shooters with one thing in common, that being a deep interest in all things concerning bullet-casting and CB shooting. As such, we are flexible in the application of techniques and highly-conversant with factors which can lie FAR outside the narrow confines of any specific interest or use for a cast projectile. This allows a level of dialogue and consultation which surpasses ANY source I've ever seen, either paper or electronic. Plus, we have a whole lot of enjoyment in each others' company...

As far as I'm concerned, this is where it's at, and this is where my cast-boolit hat is hangin'.

[9.3X62AL]

Dittoes to Bruce's comments all around.

I recently began using a small tuft of dacron in some of my loads for the purpose of orienting powder at the primer end of the case. I have yet to run chronographed shot series to assess ES and SD differences, but the downrange results indicate overall improvement in grouping ability. I'm unsure what causes this end result--whether it is the powder orientation consistency, a sealing and/or insulation of the bullet base from some effects of the powder column/pressure impulse, or some combination of the above. Whatever it is--it works--and I was a pretty avowed skeptic prior to trying the stuff myself.

Never say "never"--never say "always".

[EchoSixMike]

I use dacron in the 43 Mauser with both IMR4198 and IMR 3031 powders and have had no problems other than it's a PITA extra step. I get tufts blown from the muzzle when fired, and that matters not a whit to me. Groups from the 74/81 run to 3" groups at 100yds with 370gn RCBS sized to .446 from 20:1 lubed with SPG. IOW plenty good for me and Bambi. S/F....Ken M

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I have after over 30 yrs of handloading started using fillers. They work for me both w/ squib loads of 700X, & midrange loads of 4198 w/ cast in my 7mm/06. I have noticed I get just as good results w/ less powder in squib laods of pistol powder.
another possible benifit is it could eleminate the possibility of a S.E.E. EXPLOSION.

[shooter2]

One of my favorite topics.
My all time best load for the 45-70 is 28 grains of 4198 (either) and a healthy 2 grain wad of Dacron and the RCBS 405 grain bullet. Note, there is no decimal point in front of the "2". Yes, I occasionally see some fluffs of Dacron floating around, but so what? This load is a good BP substitute and can apply to any straight case BP cartridge according to Ross Seyfried. Use 40% of the BP weight in grains of 4198 and a good sized wad of Dacron. In the 45-70 that's 28 grains. In the 45-90 it would be 36 grains, etc... I have not tried it in bottle necked cases, but would not hesitate to do so, but with a much smaller wad.

As to SEE, there is no evidence that it exists nor has it ever been duplicated in a controlled environment (ballistics lab). This according to Dave Scoville and others. I must admit, their arguments are good and sound quite reasonable to me. Only an amateur BTW.

One of the first powders I grab for cast bullet loads with bottle necked cases and reduced loads is 4198. Works for me...

[StarMetal]

Why not use only the amount of Dacron to fill the airspace and nomore? Why use more then needed? I don't see the point of that.

Joe

[old gunner]

I havebeen using dacron as a filler for over 40 years. The daron I use is very wiry. Sears sold it for pillow stuffing. I pull off a small tuff, Appr. 1Gr. roll it betweeen My hands to make a round ball. Then I push it down on top of the powder, using a pencil. I have used this method for the 30-06, 30-30, and lately 45-70. I have never had any trouble with this method. I never used stiff loads, except for the 30-06.

[35remington]

In my experience, dacron does not get consumed by the burning of the powder; in all instances, near as I could determine, it has left the muzzle of the gun intact, in calibers from .22 K-Hornet to 45-70. The fast pistol powders may leave a small fused area in the dacron, while the slower powders leave it in its original form, but grey from fouling. The pressure of the load also has a bearing on the appearance of the dacron when recovered. Like many of the previous posters, I make sure the dacron fills the entire unused space in the cartridge to the base of the bullet

I cannot add anything more to the comments above, save that I have also used dacron in bottlenecked cases with no problems whatsoever. It serves as a gascheck to protect plainbase bullets and also eliminates velocity variation that results from partially filled cases. I would not load without it for many cartridges.

[felix]

Bob, 28 grains? What case size would that be such that no filler would be used, when seating the same boolit the same way? A half inch smaller in length case? ... felix

[StarMetal]

Old gunner...what's been saving you,probably is Dacron's springyness. It expands some after being pushed into a cartridge case. If you're basically wading it overtop the powder you're leaving an airspace between it and the base of the bullet...and well...you've been lucky you've gotten away with it for the 40 or so years you claimed to have been using it. Dacron was invented by DuPont in the early 50's. Your claim to using it for over 40 years is hard to swallow.

Not a flame, just my two cents.

Joe

[Buckshot]

Old gunner...what's been saving you,probably is Dacron's springyness. It expands some after being pushed into a cartridge case. If you're basically wading it overtop the powder you're leaving an airspace between it and the base of the bullet...and well...you've been lucky you've gotten away with it for the 40 or so years you claimed to have been using it. Dacron was invented by DuPont in the early 50's. Your claim to using it for over 40 years is hard to swallow.

Not a flame, just my two cents.

Joe

.............Ah Joe, as tactfull as ever :lol: I also push the dacron down atop the powder. All I've ever used before has been as fine as angel hair. However the last bag I bought was wirey as mentioned a couple posts up. It apprears to be much better for stuffing things as it is 'tougher' for lack of a better word.

Getting it into the smaller necked cases (30 and below) has required me to resort to rolling it into a ball and then quickly stuffing it in. It is loftier, springier and just doesn't want to seem to hang together. Actually a better deal as it expands real well! Just more of a PITA to get it through the smaller casenecks.

..............Buckshot

[EchoSixMike]

Why not use only the amount of Dacron to fill the airspace and nomore? Why use more then needed? I don't see the point of that.

That's pretty much what I use, I just measure for consistancy's sake. I have a 5 lb bag of the stuff, that'll last me exactly forever at the current rate of consumption. As said, it does spring back somewhat, and that's fine. The protection effect on the base of the bullet is rather dubious IMO, and of no matter to me one way or the other since the loads I use are well under 20k psi. In fact, the fact that it's gas porous is what makes dacron so forgiving IMO contrasted with card wads for example. S/F....Ken M

[4296]

Used Precision Reloadings poly buffer(PRPSB22) in some starting load level 7mm RM. Filled to base of neck there was a weird "scrunch" noise when the bullet was seated. Upon discharge recoil was severe and the chronograph was 200fps over non-filler load.After ejection the primer fell out of the case. My Ruger #1 showed no ill effects. I personally do not believe fillers are worth the the risk to firearms and shooters.

[StarMetal]

I have a sheet of Dacron that I buy at a quilt making place in the town near to me. It's about 1/2 inch thick. I'll cut a long strip that is 1/2 square and about two feet long. I then cut these to sizes that I need to fill the cases that I'm loading at the time. Now as to inserting them in the case I use a tool and place one of the Dacron log, as I will call it, overtop the case mouth. Then I grab this end with my special tool and push it down into the case. If a small caliber I'll help it get started. This way I bring the end of the Dacron that should be against the powder right down to and on top of the powder. There's no rolling or stuffing, or forcing it into the case and I'm assured I don't have to depend on it springing back some or not as I have thoroughly inserted it from atop the powder to up into the neck.

Joe

[StarMetal]

4296...how about some more details. You didn't even mention if the bullet was cast or jacketed. You done something wrong, except maybe if you used a Federal case. I've found once fired Federal rifle cases to lose the primer on the second loading. They are junk. I've been told Federal makes them only to be fired that once and that's it. Anyways more detail on your load and we'll try to analyze what went wrong with it.

Joe

[Leftoverdj]

My current bag is the wirey stuff. Think I like it better because I can count on it expanding to fill the space.

[35remington]

The protection to the base of the plainbase bullet when dacron is used is real and not just conjecture on my part; it's very easily proven. Simply load some cartridges with dacron and without, then fire into wet phone books. The naked bullets will have visible gascuttting, the loads with dacron very little or more often no gascutting whatsoever.

Dacron has demonstrated its benefits to me repeatedly, in many different calibers.

[drinks]

Starmetal;
With out taking your shoes off, just make each finger count 5, add up from early 50's to middle 2005's, actually more than 50 years, much less 40+ years.
I use the 1/4 " quilt batting and only the 5/8 x5/8" square Lyman recommends and then only when I judge the case to be less than 75% full, this is placed on top of the powder and has done fine for me.Your mileage may vary.

[Jumptrap]

Oh ****....*********!

[EchoSixMike]

The naked bullets will have visible gascuttting, the loads with dacron very little or more often no gascutting whatsoever.

Interesting, I may have to try this. By gascutting, do you mean cutting along the graven surface of the bullet(along the barrel/bullet interface), caused by gas blowby, or do you mean powder kernals blasted into the base of the bullet by the primer? S/F...Ken M

[StarMetal]

35remington...you're absolutely right. Dacron or Kapok does protect the base of the bullet to some degree. For those of you that aren't believer, do this test with a revolver, any caliber. Load up some plain base bullets in your normal fashion and load some up with a Dacron or Kapok filler. Clean your cylinder real good especially the face of it. Shoot the non filler loads (make up and shoot enough of each loads to get good results). Now look at the face of your cylinder, the forcing cone, and the cylinder throats. Make note of it. Then clean it all again real good and shoot the filler loads. You'll be surprised how clean your revolver is with the filler loads.

Joe

[StarMetal]

drinks

2 percent of Texans have hemroids, the other 98 percent are perfect a**holes.

Early 50's could mean up to 54. Now do you suppose Dupont invented Dacron say in 54 and instantly the next day every two bit town in the United States had the stuff on their shelves for sale?????? I don't think so. Maybe oldgunner lived right next to Dupont huh? You may need a filler in your skull.

Joe

[carpetman]

Starmetal---It is true that the computer has made things like marketing much faster. How fast? When the San Antonio Spurs recently won the final playoff game,my wife instantly tuned in QVC and they already had items (hats,tee shirts etc)to display for the winning teams---not minutes later-seconds. Now to say unless you lived next door to the Duponts would take over 11 years to get dacron,would sure say someone lived in the boondocks. Heck I bet back then people up in Rooster Crow, Idaho buying new car in 1954 could get one atleast as new as 1947 only a mere 7 years not 11.

[StarMetal]

catpetman....not only did the guy live next door to DuPont, they probably told him they made the stuff for a filler in cartridges and educated him on the use of it very early on in his reloading years.

Joe

[35remington]

E6M, I think it applies to both, but I get the base deformation from powder granules more with the 4759/RL7 etc. powders, more so than the fast burners, which leave the bottom of the bullet less dimpled, but somehow it looks more eroded. The bullet is in very much better condition than if it were naked. I agree with some comments made elsewhere that the slower burning powder might act as a sort of quasi-gascheck. Sounds plausible.

Usually I'll try the bullet naked first for simplicity's sake, then add the dacron. A lot of the time I'll keep adding it due to the results I've had.

Maybe I can get the digital camera hooked up. I've got some bullets laying around that show it, but I dunno if my camera is macro enough.

[Bullshop]

Packing Popcorn
BIC/BS

[carpetman]

Starmetal---Yes the Duponts were very neighborly. They put him in an accelerated course to be able to teach him in just 11 short years that dacron could be used as a filler.

[ben1025]

I have been using dacron for a lot of years in quite a few calibers. This latest batch I"m using (don't remember where or when I bought it) is wirery and also dusty. This is the first dacron I've used that's dusty. Don't particully care for it. Soon as I get some non dusty type I'll get rid of it. Anybody else experience this? I'll be moving back into my house in about a week. It's been a long 5 months. Now that I'm able to get on the chat room I keep forgetting to do so. Maybe tonight I'll remember. ben1025

[BlueMoon]

Seems to be several kinds of dacron. I bought mine in Walmart in a big bag that looked like a pillow and it looked just like cotton. I just tear off a piece and roll it up to a ball and start it through the neck then tap it down against the powder. Trying to use as little as possible but not let the powder come around the sides. Never had any pressure problems but never used it on any pressure loads to my knowledge. I've never used any on straight walled cases, just bottle necks.

Bill

[357tex]

I don't have near the experince most of you folks have.I use quilt batting scraps left over from my wife's quilting.I use a peice about 1in. by 1in. and push it down over the powder. I mostly load 7.62x54R .With 2400 or 3031 have tried BLC2 .use 311466 cast WW shoots good no fibers come out at the shot.Am I doing any thing wrong?You all got the experince.

[shooter2]

Bob, 28 grains? What case size would that be such that no filler would be used, when seating the same boolit the same way? A half inch smaller in length case? ... felix

Hi Felix, Welcome back. Good question. I'll measure it the next time I load some. I would guess that it's slightly more than a half inch as I have no trouble filling the space with 2 grains of Dacron. How are you feeling? Bob...

[old gunner]

The Dacron fiber I mentioed was sold by Sears for pillow stuffing. It was in the eary 60s, the NRA did some eary testing using fillers, and alox. Dacron was mentioned I belive at that time. I started reloading in 1960, We did not have much good info. then. Loading tools were quite crude then, but You still managed to get decent groups. Bulk surplus powder was less than a dollar a pound. By the way during My early reloading efforts, I was actually employed by Dupont and I have the pension checks to prove it. On a more serious note, the Dupont people were really good at getting information for You. The company was no stranger to the shooting world.

[StarMetal]

Old Gunner

That's plum amazing. If I hadn't ribbed and joked about it we'd never know that.

Joe

[drinks]

Joe;
I have a very hard time reading your posts and believing that you are 'Just kidding", I find your posts very offensive, I would never think of calling some one a liar without very convincing evidence.
In my opinion, you should apologize to OldTimer and pay more attention to how your posts actually read.
Don.

[StarMetal]

Drinks

Who's Oldtimer? Do you mean old gunner? No wonder why you have a hard time understanding posts, well at least one reason. Old gunner is a tough old old fellow and as I see it a gentleman. If you find my posts offensive, simple solution..don't read them. Old gunner don't need you standing up for him, he's pretty capable and from the amount of time he's been reloading pretty knowledgeable too...especially having discoverd using a Dacron filler so many years ago.

Old Gunner

Did you by any chance, when you worked for DuPont, get any kind of discount on their powder when they were the ones that actually made it?

Joe

[drinks]

Joe;
I find you no gentleman or a person to cultivate, I shall never have anything further to do with you.
Don

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Just had a chance to revisit this thread.
Please believe me S.E.E. does exist. It happened to me 2 times w/ .25/06s.
I'm lucky to still have my eyes ,fingers, & still be alive to regreat my mistakes. BE ESPECALLY CAREFULL W/ MIM. LOADS OF IMR 4350 & IMR 4320 IN 06 SIZE CASES.
The sad/amasing thing about both cases is the magazine American Rifeman published a warning about 2-3 mo.later about some reports of handloaders having the same experance as me. I had not contacted them about my personal disasters.
THESE LOADS WERE MIM. SUGGESTED LOADS IN THE LYMAN RELOADING MANULE.

[felix]

Yes, indeed, SEEs do exist! It occurs whenever a powder charge causes multiple wave fronts, ie, multiple pressure spikes. Most, like 99.99 percent, of the time the multiple wave fronts don't combine into one tidal wave, making one helacious pressure excursion. Using something "solid" like shotgun plastic filler filled to the top of the case before boolit insertion provides more interference for negatve wave front action. Whenever fliers are found on the target the first possible is multiple wave fronts. Sometimes this kind a wave action can be see whenever high ES's occur, but there is no guarantee of anything. ... felix

[old gunner]

No discounts of any kind, well We could buy steel toe shoes rewal cheap.
When I was employed by DuPont, they had a big interest in Remington, no luck there either.
Those comments about pressure was interesting, because after an explosion onthe plant where I worked, I was a"gofer" for one of the investigators.
He talked a lot about pressure spikes, and what may cause them. The one I remember the most was about shock waves. This is what He said" when an explosion takers place, a shock wave traveledahead of the blast, if the shock wave hits an obstructio, it will bounce back. In theory, perhaps causing the pressure to double at the point where they meet" He was quick to point out that this was an unproven idea. Since this was so long ago, things may and have likely changed. But if an air space between powder and projectile can cause a problem, this makes sense. Sure wish I had paid more attention when I was young. Since I am over 70, My skin is pretty thick, never worry about offending this old guy. I do enjoy the back and forth chit chat, makes one pay attention, also all in all this is a very nice group, I am learning a lot, best group I have found yet. There are some real pros here.
Thanks for allowing Me to ramble on. Bill

[StarMetal]

Bill,

That DuPont plant that you worked at, what did they make? I might have missed it if you posted it. Most plants I worked at got you a discount on safety equipment, like those steel toes shoes. Now when I worked at one of the major Sunoco oil refineries, we got a discount and anything related to oil, like car parts for example.

What you said about that shock wave makes alot of sense. I like the part where it hits an obstruction then bounces back...maybe that explains the ripple effect on buckshot's 45-70 casings. If you think about it, it's the shock waves created by some explosives that do the damage.

Joe

[old gunner]

The plant that I was employed at, produced Neoprene. We could buy some clothing, I still wear the wool pants for deer hunting. As far as I know powder was not available. Gun powder back then was fairly cheap, I was able to buy at wholesale since I had a small comercial reloading thing going .
More on pressure spikes, when surplus 4831 was real cheap, we were warned about reduced loads in large cases. I have heard about guns comming apart, but have never seen it documented, I read somewhere that it is difficult if not almost impossible to duplicate. Most of the time We wanted all the speed We could get, and used a case full +, barrels eroded also.
There is an article in the Aug. Gs&A, byBob Forker on the38-40, He describes using a small tuff of dacron to keep the powder down next to the primer. This is how I have been doing it fo years. Forker has been around for years, We likely learned this trick about the same time, but this group has got Me thinking about mending My way.
Bill

[StarMetal]

Bill

I read that article about Forker. What amazed me is he left an airspace between that dacron wad and the base of the bullet in that demostration model he had a picture of. We advise not to leave an airspace with any kind of filler.

Joe

[wills]

I wondered about that too.

[BlueMoon]

I thought the air space was a black powder thing or slow smokeless rifle powder thing.

Bill

[felix]

Literally, the SEE idea is being explored in more detail.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/08/0810_040810_rogue_waves.html

[BruceB]

Back in the late '80s, I think, there was an excellent article in "Handloader" from a gent (Roger Stowers, perhaps?) wherein he was able to repeatedly produce extremely excessive pressures as he progressively REDUCED loads in a 6.5mm wildcat. These were pressures sufficient to blow extractors out of the rifle, etc. If I have time, I'll try to find the article.

Not once, not twice, but MANY times he did this, and in each case the pressures eventually rose astronomically as the charge was reduced.

My own wife had a fine Browning Mauser come apart in her hands from a load which left the bullet lodged a few inches from the chamber, aparently as a result of a hangfire and re-ignition.

[9.3X62AL]

As always--reading the thread over a couple times prompts some thought. A pretty dangerous scenario, in other words.

I have used the dacron filler to keep the powder confined, and used (Buckshot's description) No. 1 Mk III Eyeball to guesstimate the correct amount needed to fill the empty cases with the lofty stuff. Today while loading some 250 Savage chow with both NEI 100 grain "RG-4's Shrunk In The Wash" and Lyman #257420 (I'll make that G-- D--- boolit shoot in SOMETHING!!) I decided to throw caution to the winds and actually weigh the tufts of fluff that I eyeballed. 1.0 grains, with extreme spread of 0.1 grains. Such occurrences are called "epiphanies" by persons more poetic than my own self. There's probably a poetic gene or two floating around my half-century-old mainframe, but I think a RFLP DNA scan would be hard put to hunt it up without a HUGE tissue sample to draw from.

Anyway, I am a convert to the Dacron Solution--and to date the substance has only done things for me that range from Innocuous to GREAT. And on that note--I adjourn.

[BLTsandwedge1]

Al,

My epiphanies generally come about after two cups of coffe and in the 2nd stall while reading the Chronicle's Op-ed page.......

....while not at all detracting from your gene theory IMHO 1 grain of dacron simply looks right- I've become accustomed to pulling (and weighing) 1 grain tufts from dog toys that have suffered dis-integration. I became a dacron fan inside of the first 100 #311041's that went downrange- magic for my '03A3 seems to be 12 grains of Unique, 1 grain of dacron, a 311041 and a Hornady check. At this modest velocity just about any lube will work- but what a difference that dacron filler makes!

......regards.........