40-06 Ackley Improved

[toolz568]

I have been thinking of a new project: 40-06 Ackley Improved. Basically taking the .400 Whelen design and using BTsnipers .40 bullets instead of Whelens .411 bullets. I have blown the neck out of a 30-06 and it looks great, but I want to try it out on a 30-06 Ackley improved before I go anywhere with this. Anyone have a 30-06 Ackley improved they want to sell?

[toolz568]

Hve a few ackley improved coming to creat the 40-06 Ackley nd found someone to make the reamer. This crazy project is showing life.

[excess650]

You sure aren't leaving yourself much shoulder to headspace on. I'm measuring .465" case head on RP and WW cases. .411" + .020" for neck is .431"(assuming it thins that much during expansion). You'll need to leave a bit of taper for the case, say .010", so that only leaves .012" of shoulder, or roughly the thickness of the neck on each side.

I JUST tried expanding a once fired 30-06 military case up to 40cal with my tapered expander, and it split. I've used this successfully in taking 30-40 Krag cases up to .410" for 40-60 Maynard, so tried a new RP 35 Whelen case. Its .464" at the head and .435" at the mouth and .012" neck thickness. .464"- .024" leaves .040" total for taper and shoulder. You will need some taper, and IIRC they recommend .005" per inch. .010" taper is less than recommended, but would leave .015" on a side for a shoulder, and that's not much.

[Rockydog]

You might want to check out this site if you haven't. RD

http://www.z-hat.com/411%20Hawk.htm

[longbow]

I'll go you one better for small shoulder to headspace on:

http://www.shootersforum.com/wildcat-cartridges/32036-rimless-444-marlin.html

Over the years I have read a lot about headspace issues regarding cartridges such as .400 Whelen, .223 necked up to .30, etc. but what about all those handgun and some rifle cartridges that headspace on the case mouth? They all seem to work well enough.

You can't make a shoulder smaller than the case mouth so if that works why would a small shoulder be a problem? Assuming the cartridge and chamber are reasonably "tight" the only reason I can see a small shoulder would be a problem is if it had a very shallow angle which might allow for some "wedging" movement.

Not speaking from personal experience as I don't have any guns that use cartridges that headspace on the case mouth or a small shoulder but I fail to see a problem if everything fits well.

In fact headspacing on the case mouth should be more problematic than a small shoulder because it would require regular case trimming to a very accurate length where a shoulder is going to be set by the sizing die.

Maybe someone can point out where this isn't so but I can't see why your idea won't work.

I have been thinking along the same lines but leaning towards the .444 rimless on a Lee Enfield action.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

You should do a BUNCH of research on the .400 Whelan. There are several versions of it, and getting it right is the key to having the case function correctly. There is no SAAMI standard for this round. Several have mutated the original and the mutations have caused problems. You should be aware of this and do your best to find out everything there is to know about the round and the problems associated with it before you spend money on reamers and such.

The people who make the reamers all don't know exactly what they are doing, and getting a reamer that has the shoulder in the wrong place and the body taper wrong are the primary issues. Also there is more to it than just necking the .30-06 case up, the body taper is reduced also. There are several contradictory drawings for that cartridge and the chamber reamer out there. Reloading dies can have the problem too. Very important to get all three components in the same ballpark with this cartridge, and then it functions just fine. The original .400 Whelan drawings are the right ones.

I read an article lately about this cartridge, which talked about these problems in detail, and I wish I had the source to give you. Maybe it was on here at Castboolits. I just can't remember where it was.

However the jist of the article was people complaining how the .400 Whelan was problematic, and the point of the article was that when chambered correctly there is no problem. Correct reloading dies was the other part of the equation as they cannot push the shoulder back so far as to not headspace the case in the chamber correctly.

I highly recommend that you research this cartridge extensively. It is supposed to be a great performer and Whelan and his Griffin and Howe rifles never had any problems.

The problems all came after others got their mitts on the round.

Calling RCBS and talking to one of the older guys might be a good place to start. An Email to John Barsness of Rifle and other Magazines woudl help too. He actually answers his emails promptly. Google him for his website. He has been helpful to me in the past.

The round is NOT just a necked up .30-06, there is more to it than that. Same with the .375 Whelan.

A perfect example of what I'm talking about follows:

Quality Cartridge (www.qual-cart.com) makes correctly headstamped cases for the .400 Whelan. They also make improved versions of the case in 24,28,30, and 40 degree shoulders.

However,,, "the Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions' Shows the case to be strait with no shoulder at all. All data included with the drawing indicates no shoulder, strait case.

This book is supposed to be a definative reference on cartridge dimensions and yet in this case it is glaringly Wrong! One of the editors is Bryce Townsley, and I know he knows the difference, andyet this one just slipped by. Now here is it is,,, Carved in Stone!

As I stated in the beginning you really need to do your hoemwork on this one. It will save you a bunch of money and disappointment.

Randy

[toolz568]

Thanks Randy,

I'm thinking this is not worth the time. Between the barrel, custom reamer and the custome dies, I could buy just about any rifle I want.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Thanks Randy,

I'm thinking this is not worth the time. Between the barrel, custom reamer and the custome dies, I could buy just about any rifle I want.

True: but since you were thinking about it, the original idea for this and all of the other Whelan rounds larger than .30 CAL(yes the .25-06 was his too but required a new barrel) Was simply to rebore the barrel of the existing Springfield Rifle to the larger bore size Clean up the chamber and proceed. Obvously this would have been relatively inexpensive.

The problems with the.375 and 400's only came up when others started fiddling with the round.

Finding an old Springfield Sporter for $300 would be a good place to start, and I just missed one at a local gunshop last week. I lean towards the .375 as I am only going to be shooting Cast boolits at targets and shilhouttes with the gun, still if I wanted, the capibility would be there. This gun could easily be completed for $600 total and that is only contingent on the $300 sporter, more or less if that changes.

Just some thoughts for you to consider.

Randy

[Nrut]

ogotz,
Don't give up yet!
If I was going to build a .411 on a standard action I would go with ramrod340's 400PDK or a .240Webee-.411..
With the 400PDK you can get all the info you need, as far as reamers, dies, and load data from ramrod340..


I don't think a .240Weatherby-.411 has been built but I believe a .240W-.423 has been built and Alberta Canuck in the process of building a .240W-.416 it looks like..
It should be not problem to neck it down to .411 caliber..

400PDK Link:
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7971019521/m/3541003751?r=5731023751#5731023751

.416 Woodsloafer "Midcat' Link:
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6521043/m/1531096271

I would use a Winchester M70 action as they have a coned breech and feeding flat nosed cast bullets is not a problem with them..
Good luck with your project..

[flounderman]

If you want a 40 caliber on a standard bolt face, use the 284 case, it has a rebated rim and the body is bigger than an 06 so you can have a shoulder. also case is shorter. it has probably already been done and someone has the reamer for it. the 284 was necked down and blown out to just about every caliber. I have had trouble with cases needing annealing before the first loading, and cases are more expensive than 06s but somebody will cut the chamber or rent you the reamer. High plains at turtle lake, nd, does rebores but if you have a 40 caliber blank, and an action, it will not cost much more than a standard chamber job.

[HangFireW8]

WRB is right. I read perhaps the same article. The gist of it was the early Griffin & Howe 400 Whelens were essentially improved designs, meaning blown out taper. However they were not Ackley Improved, meaning different headspace. Later gun writers used different spec RCBS dies and condemned the design for having insufficient shoulder for proper headspace.

In fact the real problem was the die would reset the shoulder in the wrong position.

HF

[FrankG]

Ive had a 375-06 /375 Whelen Imp. for 20 years and it is easy to load for , to reform brass is easy.
It loves the 376446 270gr cast . Shoots the big 270 spire point Hornadys super too !

Mauser FN action , Wilson 24" barrel, Timney trigger and a Richards walnut stock .

[redneckdan]

I've never played with a 40-06 but in my experience when expanding cases that much it is easiest to do by annealing the neck and then fire forming with 10gr of red dot and fill the rest of the case with corn meal. I have had considerably fewer if any neck splits when done this way. This method would be dependent on the stock '06 brass being able to head space somewhat on the 40-06 chamber shoulder.

[13Echo]

Try this site. Excellent article by Petrov who has an original G&H 400 Whelan and knows as much or more about the cartridge than anyone else. I'd use the original design just for nostalgia if for no other reason , but it is a good cartridge.

http://www.z-hat.com/smashing_the_headspace_myth.htm

Jerry Liles

[W.R.Buchanan]

That was the article I read !!! Thanks Jerry I bookmarked it so I can find it again. This guy has a bunch of G&H and other remodeled Springfields. His site is full of good stuff.

I would suggest that anyone interested in the .400 Whelan read this article several times. This article debunks virtually all of the myths concerning this cartridge, and is a perfect example how the of the effects of using "NON SOURCE Material." can screw something up!

Word of mouth tends to mutate technical stuff quickly, the info readily available on this cartridge is a perfect example. As I stated in my first post on this thread people need to research this particular cartridge a bunch to find out the real skinny.

Well here is the real story handed to you. This is source material. I want to see many rifles built off this material. And when someone tells you the .400 Whelan is a problem you just refer them to this site.

I see nothing that Whelan ever did as a "Problem" He did more for the American Bolt Action Rifle than anyone, and he invented the American Bolt Action Sporting Rifle. Prior to him there was leveractions and single shots for sporting rifles. He is definately one of "Them that knows"

If Keith signed off on it, then you could pretty much take it to the bank.

These guys are the "Source" you go to them for your answers and you won't go wrong. :Fire:

Randy

[Ecramer]

Sounds like an interesting project, but it reminds me of a quote from Jeff Cooper, that I can't find on line but I'll try to reproduce from memory.

"When I was younger, I spent a lot of time working on various methods to hotrod the .30-06 round, but later I came to wonder why. If you shoot anything up to the size of a buffalo with a standard .30-06, it will die, and if the game is larger than that, you need more gun."

Of course, one can argue that the .375 or .40 Ackley improved rounds are "more gun." And citing that quote also means I'm talking out my backside, because I'm a fan of .35 Whelen -- all rifles are interesting.

[hunter2]

redneckdan has got the brass forming down pat. I use a different powder, but it was what I had on hand. And yes there are many different dimensions. For example - Ordered a 375-06 imp. from Pac Nor barrels and had them send the drawings to ch4d to make the dies. That way everything was the same. Go for it!