I thought I had lead. But....

[OeldeWolf]

I am in California, and starting this later in life than I should have. So when I had an opportunity to gather a whole bunch of buckets of used JHP bullets from a local range a few years ago, I jumped on it.

I scooped them up, melted them down, labeled them as range lead, and stacked the boxes.

Went to cast with some of it last week, after having been sick the last few months. At first, I thought maybe the mould was dirty. Cleaned it well. Then I thought, maybe some zinc had somehow gotten in the pot. But on cooling, it has a really weird, almost fibrous pattern on the top. Then I found it went through a definite slush stage while melting or cooling.

Then I sat back and thought a minute. This does not act like lead. These bullets were from training sessions for the local dept of corrections. Bingo! Non-lead, eco-friendly ammunition. Probably Bi?

I have about 600 or 700 pounds of this stuff. It does not seem to cast right for bullets. And this range lead was all that I had of semi soft lead. I have a few pounds (certalnly less than 50 pounds, probably less than 20) of pure lead for the front stuffers. I have a couple hundred pounds of wheel weight alloy ingots, and some solder and a smidgeon of lino. But I am in sad shape for soft/semi soft lead for handguns.

Anybody local (because of the weight) who would want to trade me some lead for this, so they can make sinkers of it? If not, I will see about taking some samples to the metal recyclers, so he can analyze it. Bi is more expensive than lead, maybe get them to trade me lead for it?


Basically, watch out, there are apparently huge quantities of this stuff out there!

[DrB]

I am in California, and starting this later in life than I should have. So when I had an opportunity to gather a whole bunch of buckets of used JHP bullets from a local range a few years ago, I jumped on it.

I scooped them up, melted them down, labeled them as range lead, and stacked the boxes.

Went to cast with some of it last week, after having been sick the last few months. At first, I thought maybe the mould was dirty. Cleaned it well. Then I thought, maybe some zinc had somehow gotten in the pot. But on cooling, it has a really weird, almost fibrous pattern on the top. Then I found it went through a definite slush stage while melting or cooling.

Then I sat back and thought a minute. This does not act like lead. These bullets were from training sessions for the local dept of corrections. Bingo! Non-lead, eco-friendly ammunition. Probably Bi?

I have about 600 or 700 pounds of this stuff. It does not seem to cast right for bullets. And this range lead was all that I had of semi soft lead. I have a few pounds (certalnly less than 50 pounds, probably less than 20) of pure lead for the front stuffers. I have a couple hundred pounds of wheel weight alloy ingots, and some solder and a smidgeon of lino. But I am in sad shape for soft/semi soft lead for handguns.

Anybody local (because of the weight) who would want to trade me some lead for this, so they can make sinkers of it? If not, I will see about taking some samples to the metal recyclers, so he can analyze it. Bi is more expensive than lead, maybe get them to trade me lead for it?


Basically, watch out, there are apparently huge quantities of this stuff out there!

Rotometals does alloy buyback... If it is high assay bismuth, you might have yourself a nice windfall there.

I'd check before you get rid of it.

Of course, I wonder why you think it isnt a (non eutectic alloy of) zinc? Zinc is relatively non toxic, dense, and cheaper than bismuth. It's also been used for bullets in the past...

[OeldeWolf]

It was the weird, almost fibrous way it looked on cooling. Usually if there is a little zinc, it forms a clupm of mush right after the lead melts, and it leaves the surface smooth when it solidifies. This stuff qas all mush as it cooled. And an undisturbed pot looks fibrous, that is the best way I can think of to describe it. It looks really weird, for certain-sure.

Most of what I have seen offered locally in eco friendly, said either solid copper, or Bismuth. I am certainly open to guesses on what it actually is.

[Linstrum]

I don't have any direct experience with zinc projectiles, but I do have a little experience with zinc and aluminum die cast alloys. Before I go any further, it is my understanding that the zinc alloy used for bullets is basically the same as ZAMAK #2, also known as Kirksite. Nothing wrong with using it as a boolit alloy except that it doesn't have the high specific gravity of lead and lacks down range performance. In other words it isn't very heavy and it doesn't carry a lot of terminal energy compared to lead, which is also one of the problems with using steel shot for shotguns.

The problem with using this stuff comes in when various incompatible die cast alloys get mixed together or mixed with lead. I have seen the fibrous mess you describe when I accidentally mixed an aluminum based die cast alloy with a zinc based die cast alloy, and from what I have read, a similar thing happens when lead and zinc alloys get mixed. I know I have had a SMALL amount of zinc contamination in a lead alloy, and I just skimmed the muck off the top and then went about casting boolits, but I have never had something like a 50/50 mix. What is contradictory about getting zinc into lead is that the two metals do not mix and this fact is taken advantage of in purifying silver in a very clever and widely used metallurgical process know as the Parkes Process that is of great historical significance.

DrB has some good points. I kind of doubt that you have bismuth, but I'd sure check it out anyway because if you do, you could have a little windfall sitting there! I'm a chemist and familiar with testing for various metals, but I can't think of an easy home test using drug store and supermarket chemicals that would be definitive for bismuth in the presence of lead, zinc, tin, antimony, arsenic, copper, and whatever else could be in there. Good Luck!

rl 1093

[DrB]

Well, I don't know what hes got, and with bismuth at $20/lb he should find out.

I have some low melting point bismuth alloy. it is quite crystalline looking. it may be that he does have a high bismuth alloy.

[dRok]

My sympathies for being stuck in Kali, Ive been collecting lead for just a couple months now, not putting too much effort into it and I have well over a ton already, mostly WW.

[Longwood]

My sympathies for being stuck in Kali, Ive been collecting lead for just a couple months now, not putting too much effort into it and I have well over a ton already, mostly WW.

:confused:Stuck in Kali?????? :confused:

I am also extremely lucky and get to live in California.
About this time last year, I read some of the Paranoia here and thought I should begin hoarding.
In less than a year, I scrounged nearly a ton of free lead.
At first, I bought a little tin and Linotype for 40 to 50 cents pound but most of what I found was also free. It all seems to be very plentiful out West.
It is amazing what can be found in such a incredibly beautiful and wonderful place to live.
I know where there is 3/4 of a barrel of wheel weights I can get for hauling them away.
I had a friend bringing me wheel weights fro Arizona for a while, but I told him not to bother anymore. It is so plentiful here I don't even bother with going and looking for it anymore.

[3006guns]

Well, that may be the case in So. California (and I congratulate you!) but up here in the northern end of the state asking about any scrap lead gets you lectures on "toxic metals" by people who aren't qualified to even bake cookies. I swear, buying or locating lead lately gets you looked at like you're trying to buy dope!

In other words unless I come across a long forgotten stash, all of the regular sources have gone dry. A truly pitiful situation!

As for the OP, Rotometals charges something like $60 to analyize a sample but if it turns out to be bismuth it would be well worth it!

[Longwood]

Well, that may be the case in So. California (and I congratulate you!) but up here in the northern end of the state asking about any scrap lead gets you lectures on "toxic metals" by people who aren't qualified to even bake cookies. I swear, buying or locating lead lately gets you looked at like you're trying to buy dope!



I am rarely home on weekends because I love to travel around our awesome state.
I wear out a lot of tires. I don't rotate my tires so I end up buying more often and two at a time.
I look around when I am in other areas for tire stores that will give me weights if I buy tires from them. I may have to stop a few places but it is often worth the effort.
I have found so much, sometimes I see more than I want to load down my small Toyota truck with it all.
I would get it and hoard it all but I see hoarding as the true problem, not a supposed shortage.

[MBTcustom]

PM sent.

[Marlin Junky]

I am rarely home on weekends because I love to travel around our awesome state.
I wear out a lot of tires. I don't rotate my tires so I end up buying more often and two at a time.
I look around when I am in other areas for tire stores that will give me weights if I buy tires from them. I may have to stop a few places but it is often worth the effort.
I have found so much, sometimes I see more than I want to load down my small Toyota truck with it all.
I would get it and hoard it all but I see hoarding as the true problem, not a supposed shortage.

You had better scrounge all the WW's you can while you still have the opportunity.

As of January 1, 2010, California law prohibits the manufacture, sale, or installation of wheel weights that contain more than 0.1% lead...

You are fortunate to be located outside Metro areas but I recommend you be more discrete. This situation definitely boils down to supply and demand.

MJ

[groundsclown]

I swear, buying or locating lead lately gets you looked at like you're trying to buy dope!

THATS THE LOOK!!!!
The last dozen or so shops I've stopped at they gave me that exact look. I couldn't put my finger on it...it wasn't a puzzled, bewildered or confused stare. It was as if I was doing something sinister & evil...Like beating a bag full of kitten or something.

Almost like they were appalled with disbelief that someone would want such a foul & evil alloy.

[remy3424]

[QUOTE=groundsclown;1668366]...Like beating a bag full of kitten or something. QUOTE]

Now that is a funny analogy!! It made me laugh out loud anyway, but I am rather twisted. Have also seen the "look"... if ask why you want them, better off saying "makin fishing weights" than boolits.

[dRok]

I didnt mean just because of the lead situation, last I heard there were restrictions on 'assault weapons' there, magazine capacity restrictions on handguns. No lead bullets allowed in certain areas, all kinds of craziness going on. Its nice to live in a state where the lawmakers and general public have a tolerance to guns.

Dont get me wrong, cali is a beautiful state, its just the libtards that I can do without. I live next to MN and they are almost as bad, at least heading in the same direction...


:confused:Stuck in Kali?????? :confused:

I am also extremely lucky and get to live in California.
About this time last year, I read some of the Paranoia here and thought I should begin hoarding.
In less than a year, I scrounged nearly a ton of free lead.
At first, I bought a little tin and Linotype for 40 to 50 cents pound but most of what I found was also free. It all seems to be very plentiful out West.
It is amazing what can be found in such a incredibly beautiful and wonderful place to live.
I know where there is 3/4 of a barrel of wheel weights I can get for hauling them away.
I had a friend bringing me wheel weights fro Arizona for a while, but I told him not to bother anymore. It is so plentiful here I don't even bother with going and looking for it anymore.

[BadDaditood]

OeldeWolf= i'm sure you've seen it by now, but i saw this Bismuth video on Rotometals last nite:
http://www.rotometals.com/Bismuth-s/4.htm


up here in the northern end of (CA) asking about any scrap lead gets you lectures on "toxic metals" by people who aren't qualified to even bake cookies. I swear, buying or locating lead lately gets you looked at like you're trying to buy dope!!

that and "beating a sack of kittens" made me laff out loud twice!

born down here near the coast of sunny southern I've gotten *that look* too - now i just say i'm makin' *dipsee* sinkers. (i've met very few anti-fishing people, at least outside of Hollywood.)

it doesn't help a bit with the media quick to blame any wildfires on hunters' ricochets- but don't let me get started on that... :Fire:

[BadDaditood]

I didnt mean just because of the lead situation, last I heard there were restrictions on 'assault weapons' there, magazine capacity restrictions on handguns. No lead bullets allowed in certain areas, all kinds of craziness going on. Its nice to live in a state where the lawmakers and general public have a tolerance to guns.

Dont get me wrong, cali is a beautiful state, its just the libtards that I can do without. I live next to MN and they are almost as bad, at least heading in the same direction...

It's all true...

i had a fabulous time pheasant hunting in SoDak a couple years back... several times an hour i found myself telling my buddy *you can't do that!* or *that's illegal!*

He thinks i'm nuts, but we had many laffs at Minnesotan's expense.

one evening several minutes after shooting ended we sat on the tailgate enjoying the harvest moon rising over the milo and we heard a shot. we looked at each other and he said "prolly some Mini-Soat'n emptying his gun"

**Legal Disclaimer- i am not anti-Minnesotan, my mom is Minnesotan :) however my buddy has to live next door to them, and i reserve his right to make fun of his neighbor... as i'm sure my neighbor makes fun of me... but he's a BR guy- and we all know how nuts they are- 1000 yds with a .308?!? that's just plain crazy :holysheep

[fredj338]

:confused:Stuck in Kali?????? :confused:

I am also extremely lucky and get to live in California.
About this time last year, I read some of the Paranoia here and thought I should begin hoarding.
In less than a year, I scrounged nearly a ton of free lead.
At first, I bought a little tin and Linotype for 40 to 50 cents pound but most of what I found was also free. It all seems to be very plentiful out West.
It is amazing what can be found in such a incredibly beautiful and wonderful place to live.
I know where there is 3/4 of a barrel of wheel weights I can get for hauling them away.
I had a friend bringing me wheel weights fro Arizona for a while, but I told him not to bother anymore. It is so plentiful here I don't even bother with going and looking for it anymore.

I don't know how anyone calls it "lucky" to live here, one of the most screwed up states in the country on so many levels. The fricking weather is about the onyl good reason to be here, but we pay a hell of a price for it.
If you have connections for lead ww, you are in pretty good shape, most of my souirces dried up about a year ago. You need someone to haul off a 1/2 bbl, drop a note, If it's in SoCal, I'll go get them. Pickings around here are pretty slim.

[Linstrum]

I was born and raised in Kalifornia and if you don't know already I'll tell ya it is a far different place now than it was in the late 1940s until the early 1970s when if you had a pickup truck you carried your Winchester or Marlin lever action in a gun rack mounted inside the rear window in the cab. I always lived far outside of town in farm country and I farmed for 33 years until 2008. In 1974 everything in Kalifornia turned to fecal matter almost over night and it has rapidly gotten worse ever since. By 2006 I had had it with the major erosions of personal freedom and financial threats posed by extremely wealthy new non-farming neighbors who were mostly from major East Coast cities who would file law suits if you didn't maintain your farm so it looked Churchill Downs with white board fences, green mowed fields that cost a bloody fortune to irrigate, and horses running around, all of which have NOTHING to do with running a financially profitable farming business. When I bought my farm land back in 1975 I thought I would be able to spend the rest of my life there, but the multi-millionaires who moved into my area formed a coalition to run all the farmers out because we spoiled their view. Reminds me of Antelope, Oregon, when the Bagwan Rajneesh brought his lackeys in from outside the area to out-vote the original inhabitants in order take over and run things their way. I sold my ranch and moved to New Mexico in 2008 and haven't looked back, although since I've been here in Otero County it has been so unusually cold in the winter that all the locals are complaining they can't afford the heating bills. But I can own an AK47 and high capacity magazine pistol and carry them in my car.

In 2003 I scored about a ton of banana-size lead wheel weights from the Ventura County, California, county truck and bus maintenance garage where a long-time buddy worked. When I moved I brought my lead stash with me. One of my dad's long time buddies here in New Mexico owns the local scrap recycling yard that gets stuff from Holloman AFB/White Sands Missile Test Range and he was giving me wheel weights until the price went up enough to make it worth his while to cast them into bars and haul to El Paso, Texas. I don't know how much lead I have now, but it is enough to last quite awhile. For messing around and plinking I'm looking around for zinc wheel weights to conserve my lead for serious long range work where lead is best.

rl 1095

[3006guns]

I was born and raised in Kalifornia and if you don't know already I'll tell ya it is a far different place now than it was in the late 1940s until the early 1970s when if you had a pickup truck you carried your Winchester or Marlin lever action in a gun rack mounted inside the rear window in the cab. I always lived far outside of town in farm country and I farmed for 33 years until 2008. In 1974 everything in Kalifornia turned to fecal matter almost over night and it has rapidly gotten worse ever since. By 2006 I had had it with the major erosions of personal freedom and financial threats posed by extremely wealthy new non-farming neighbors who were mostly from major East Coast cities who would file law suits if you didn't maintain your farm so it looked Churchill Downs with white board fences, green mowed fields that cost a bloody fortune to irrigate, and horses running around, all of which have NOTHING to do with running a financially profitable farming business. When I bought my farm land back in 1975 I thought I would be able to spend the rest of my life there, but the multi-millionaires who moved into my area formed a coalition to run all the farmers out because we spoiled their view. Reminds me of Antelope, Oregon, when the Bagwan Rajneesh brought his lackeys in from outside the area to out-vote the original inhabitants in order take over and run things their way. I sold my ranch and moved to New Mexico in 2008 and haven't looked back, although since I've been here in Otero County it has been so unusually cold in the winter that all the locals are complaining they can't afford the heating bills. But I can own an AK47 and high capacity magazine pistol and carry them in my car.

rl 1095

That is probably the most concise, accurate and appropriate description of California (and Antelope, Oregon) that I've ever seen. In other words, things started to go to Heck in a handbasket during the early 70's and it mirrors my experience exactly.

[OeldeWolf]

I will see if I can get some HCl tomorrow, test everything marked RL for Zn. If it bubbles, I will have an idea what it is.

I buy an occasional ammo box at a local flea market. I had a couple in my hands last summer, and an older lady (looking rather hippy'ish) saw them and smiled. She said" Those are really handy. I keep my embroidery in one. What do you put in them?" I said ammo, and she gave m,e a look that said I must eat babies alive for breakfast, and hurried along her way.

[DrB]

Anyone ever figure out what the alloy was? :)

[OeldeWolf]

I apparently do not know many people rich enough to own pools. Having a tough time getting a few ounces of HCl to test with. Been doing not o hot with the fibro, not been getting much else due to 'pain and discomfort' from that. I do not really want to buy 3 gallons of muriatic acid just to test the bars i have. I sure miss running the lab at the glass plant.

With the comments on Bi, and knowing the bid system, could well be Zn. But, knowing the screwy things this state often does, could be Bi or almost anything. lol

[nanuk]

HCL.... can't you just dip a Q-tip in your car battery and put a drop of that on?

it should be concentrated enough

[OeldeWolf]

Battery acid is H2SO4, sulfuric acid. THAT I have plenty of access to, working in an automotive shop! :)

[Linstrum]

H2SO4 battery acid will work to make zinc fizz just fine. Zinc is "amphoteric", which simply put for our purposes is a property where it will react with both acid and alkali. Being amphoteric is a somewhat unusual property since most metals do not react with alkali. If the mystery metal fizzes with a strong acid like hydrochloric or battery acid and goes into solution with lye, then it is a pretty good bet it is zinc. Chances are it is an alloy, though, so doing chemical tests this simple won't tell the whole story, but if it fizzes in contact with a STRONG acid along with getting etched by a strong lye solution, then it at least has zinc in it. Aluminum is also amphoteric and will be etched by both acid and alkali, but it also fizzes with both acid and alkali, which zinc does not. Unfortunately, some aluminum alloys also contain zinc, which will mask the results. To further complicate things, tin is also amphoteric, and its presence will mask test results, too. Like I mentioned earlier, there isn't a good definitive test that can be done using supermarket chemicals, but some good educated guesses can be made. Bismuth will also react with HOT H2SO4 battery acid to make bismuth sulfate plus sulfur dioxide gas, which zinc and aluminum won't do. Sulfur dioxide is what gives burning match heads their highly irritating smell and causes a very unpleasant burning sensation when inhaled. Sulfur dioxide will trigger asthma attacks in very tiny amounts, even in people who normally don't have asthma, so I really can't recommend doing a sniff test unless you know exactly what you are doing.

rl 1105

[OeldeWolf]

I do not know how i missed your reply, Linstrum, but I did.

I bought 2 gals of Muriatic Acid, and tested the suspect boxes. I got some fizzing on every one of the boxes. My boss bought a rental unit with a pool, so he will buy the excess off of me. For a slight discount, of course. :)

I also got some slight fizzing, on a couple of boxes marked alloy, which should have been bullets I bought at an estate sale. Looks like I will heat up the pot tomorrow, see how those boxes melt. And cool down. Fortunately the cooled result is distinctive.

I took one of my weeks of vacation now, to rest up and get stuff done around the house. Figured better to rest up now, than run till I drop and then rest, like I usually do. So the loading room/my work room is actually showing empty floor, and both the benchtop and top of my desk are now visible. So I had a place to test the ingots.

I am hoping that there will not be enough tin in normal range lead to fizz, as I can not see any reason they would. Just to rule out a possible false positive, anyone know?

[popper]

Sure it isn't sinter'd Cu/Sn bullets - the green ammo for LE?