Lead bullets should be banned at the range?

[Big Impact]

There I was having a conversation on the firing line with a guy about how fun it is to cast and shoot my own bullets, when this guy and his wife come over and start giving me a rash of #$#& about how non-jacketed boolits should be banned and how I was endangering everyone’s health by shooting them. You see I’m spreading poison gas according to him. Im a southern gentleman I don’t release gas unless a finger is offered prior to the event. I might be able to understand if we were in an indoor range but we were outside with a stiff wind to boot.

You know, one of the reasons I go to the range is to escape all the liberal BS that I’m bombarded with on a daily basis, and to be around people with some sense. I hope this isn’t a trend.

[stubshaft]

Obviously you have met a Darwin candidate. I would have told him that he shouldn't be breathing my air (probably get arrested shortly after).

[ku4hx]

The nutcases are all over and they take any opportunity to be, well ... the best nutcases they can be. Maybe it was a isolated instance and won't happen again. But it seems to me their kind are multiplying at an alarming rate.

Maybe not the best response, but I've been known to just keep doing what I was doing and let them rant. They can't stand it when you ignore them.

[BulletFactory]

Dont give so much thought to those who refuse to do so.

[zxcvbob]

Assuming the range is still hot, just say "'Scuse me a minute" and go back to your shooting and don't even look back. Preferably shooting something *really load* (I have a Ruger Blackhawk in .30 Carbine that's shockingly loud)

[Moondawg]

I fear that these nut cases have been poisoned, but not by lead bullets. Their minds have been poisoned by State and Federal agencies, by the loony environmentalists, the media and in many cases by politicians. They are going to believe in all these environmental dangers and you probably will not change their minds with logic and facts.

[zack]

There I was having a conversation on the firing line with a guy about how fun it is to cast and shoot my own bullets, when this guy and his wife come over and start giving me a rash of #$#& about how non-jacketed boolits should be banned and how I was endangering everyone’s health by shooting them. You see I’m spreading poison gas according to him. Im a southern gentleman I don’t release gas unless a finger is offered prior to the event. I might be able to understand if we were in an indoor range but we were outside with a stiff wind to boot.

You know, one of the reasons I go to the range is to escape all the liberal BS that I’m bombarded with on a daily basis, and to be around people with some sense. I hope this isn’t a trend.

While he and wife were ranting you missed a golden oppurtunity to lowdly expend some methane gas.

[beagle]

Man, that's unreal in Alabama. Now, it was in CA or in the NE, I might understand. Sounds like a couple of transplanted yankees to me.

I hope you educated them on the non-hazards of firing lead bullets./beagle

[Bwana]

You should of told him that he was proof that retarded people can have guns.

[steg]

not all of us Yankees are liberals, here in PA we republicans are outnumbered 3 to 1 and I find that the libs up here aren't libs, their just follow the leader stupid. I've had one tell me that the republicans were the ones that were trying to take our guns away

[odfairfaxsub]

maybe their afraid of the smoke associated with the lube burning off after firing, if their that afraid of that then they should be really afraid of anykind of gun smoke due to lead in the priming, lead off the base of a bullet, gun cleaners burning off on cold bore fires after cleaning, the powder residues on the hands, the apparent danger of mechanical failures with a mechanical gun. they are so tunnel visioned by this point. heaven forbid if he smoked a cigarate with his shooting hand after taking a leak while leaving the range after shooting all day cus i never visited one yet that had running water.

[Blammer]

I would have asked him what he was shooting, and commented on the lead in his projectiles.

[littlejack]

Yes sir, there are dead bodies lying all over the shooting line here at the gun club that I shoot at.
We have a very large turnover of members. We have a pit up in the hills where the old lead poisioned members are buried by the new unpoisoned members.
I love it when folks like that expound with their intelligence.
By the way, welcome to the CastBoolits.
Jack

[edsmith]

what Bwana said.

[edler7]

Have him and the missus go dig around in the berm a little and find some jacketed bullets that have split. See what Mr. Healthy has to say about that.

Maybe even have the RSO call a cease fire while he does it...[smilie=1:

[zxcvbob]

Yes sir, there are dead bodies lying all over the shooting line here at the gun club that I shoot at.
We have a very large turnover of members. We have a pit up in the hills where the old lead poisioned members are buried by the new unpoisoned members.


Yep. That pit is the best place to mine for lead once you get used to the smell. :kidding:
(just tell the weenies that you're recycling.)

[edler7]

We have a pit up in the hills where the old lead poisioned members are buried by the new unpoisoned members.

That's what my club does instead of 8 hours service time per year for the range or initiation fees.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Notify the RO and have them removed. Then take it up at the next board meeting about having them removed from the membership and eliminate guest privileges.

They'd have a heart attack here if they saw how many tens of thousands of lead bulllets are expended at the monthly IPSC matches.

Rich

[canyon-ghost]

Even if we all joke about it, and it's wrong, the trend toward environmentalism (what they call it) is getting way out of hand. When houses in the mountains are burned down because they are spoiling the view, environmental terrorism (what I really call it) has reached a riot pitch. There are people sitting out a prison term with a proud label from the Earth Liberation Front. Some folks don't realize the implications or the influence that's being asserted upon them.


just follow the leader stupid

[nvbirdman]

He was just trying to save you from harming yourself.
You should be willing to make a small sacrifice for the common good.
Where is the sarcasm icon?

[tuckerdog]

Just nod smile and say duhhh yup, and pop off the next round.

[GRUMPA]

There I was having a conversation on the firing line with a guy about how fun it is to cast and shoot my own bullets, when this guy and his wife come over and start giving me a rash of #$#& about how non-jacketed boolits should be banned and how I was endangering everyone’s health by shooting them. You see I’m spreading poison gas according to him. Im a southern gentleman I don’t release gas unless a finger is offered prior to the event. I might be able to understand if we were in an indoor range but we were outside with a stiff wind to boot.

You know, one of the reasons I go to the range is to escape all the liberal BS that I’m bombarded with on a daily basis, and to be around people with some sense. I hope this isn’t a trend.


Being the sarcastic gent that I am, I would have calmly drawn a deep breathe with the following phrase, "I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person" and just continued with what I was doing at the time.[smilie=1:

[9.3X62AL]

Welcome aboard, Big Impact. Those moonbats gotta be transferred/transplanted Californians from the Bay Area. How unfortunate that they got away to infest the United States. Most of them stick to the larger cities--even here in the PRC--to impress each other with their commitment to green energy--sustainable growth--and Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream. Out here in the remaining real part of California, we just tell them to go back to Santa Monica or Berkeley--the areas where their drivel and nonsense still get traction.

[Jammer Six]

IPSC matches are usually conducted outside.

Our range, an indoor range, has banned lead boolits for exactly this reason.

I don't know anything about outdoor ranges, except that everyone has to wait on everyone else to look at their targets, and you don't get to choose the length of the range you're shooting at.

At most of the outdoor ranges here, you'd have to be dating someone's daughter to be considered to go before the board and make a case that you should be allowed to draw from a holster, and then you couldn't fire faster than once a minute. Or whatever it is.

So I stuck with my indoor range.

[dragon813gt]

It may seem like the NE is all liberals but that's far from the case. PA is Philly on one side, Pittsburgh on the other and Alabama in the middle. Unfortunately the cities have a larger population then the rest of the state so the normal people are out numbered.

I am a rude prick to people like that. I would have told them about the lead in the primers that they were shooting. Showed them a FMJ bullet with it's exposed base. And then proceed to tell them to stop harassing me before I ask for his membership card to get his information and then call every board member. And if he couldn't present a membership card I would get their license plate number and report them to the cops for trespassing. It's what we are supposed to do if someone doesn't have their card and are causing problems.


Brought to you by TapaTalk.

[groovy mike]

Don't these people realize that lead is a natural substance present in the ground wherever God decided to put it let alone on every F&I, American Revolution, and Civil war battle field in abundance? These areas are NATIONAL TREASURES not toxic waste dumps!

[kmag]

Big Inpact,
What range did this occur? Think I will try to avoid it. If you don't want to put it on line, send me a pm. Take Care.
kmag

[montana_charlie]

Where is the sarcasm icon?

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/sarcasm.gif

[zxcvbob]

I don't think I've ever met a liberal from Nebraska.

[Jammer Six]

Meet more people...

There are people of every stripe in every state.

It seems to me that it's a population issue. Cities tend to be liberal, rural, conservative.

It also makes sense to me that the denser the population, the tighter the gun laws. Assume that the folks living next to you and the fellow across the street are morons. It doesn't much matter what they do with a weapon if you and your wife are the only humans within ten miles in any direction. It makes a much larger difference if you live in a tenement in New York city.

[dbarnhart]

LIke everyone else who does not reload, these people do not know that the base of every FMJ bullet is open and that upon firing some of this lead is vaporized. (I keep a couple of FMJ projectiles in my range bag just in case this comes up).

[Jammer Six]

They probably don't "know" it because it isn't correct.

[9-toes]

Makes no sense. Sitting in traffic with the windows up and cycling outside air is more harmful. Sad to see people with minds so open their brains fall out.

[montana_charlie]

They probably don't "know" it because it isn't correct.
That's it?
Aren't you going to tell us the real story?

CM

[leadbutt]

Next time you see them win them over to start casting. That would be the real victory. Tell them the +'s and defeat their ignorance.

L. Bottoms

[waksupi]

I have found in this area that quietly telling yuppies if they didn't drop the nonsense, certain people would be more than happy to kick their ***. I recall in particular an X-con biker that moved in up the road from me, and thought he was king. He was convinced otherwise, and left the state. He didn't care for the alternative.

[Huntducks]

Just shows you the goverment propaganda is working.

Just look at this board how many use masks and latex gloves to cast and reload with.

[BAGTIC]

You should have explained to him that lead won't hurt you as long as you don't swallow it so it might be a good idea for him to keep his mouth shut.

[StratsMan]

dbarnhart.... that's my solution, too... clearly they don't reload, or they would know what they are shooting ... keep some FMJ's handy to show them, and explain that it's the boolit lube that creates the smoke/smell...

<<Engage Soapbox here>>
I also like the idea (though I have no proof) that there really isn't lead vapor in the air, just lead dust... the boiling point of pure lead is over 3000 degrees F... when we cast, we're barely past the melting point... if you're expecting lead vapor to go freely into the air, you have to get it much closer to the boiling point... visualize steam off of a pot of water. At 35 degrees F (just over melt), there are no vapors... but as you approach the boiling point, the vapors are much more intense.

Just because it gets hot to the touch doesn't mean there's free vapor in the air...
<<End Soapbox here>>

[Freightman]

I have always said shooters and gun owners are our own worst enemy! we don't like "Black Rifles", we don't like simi-autos' we don't like smokeless powder, or Blackpowder and it should be banned! If it is a gun a rifle a smokepole ect. and it is being handled right and proper safely then more power to them I do not like deer meat, but I am not going to say you who do are not very smart, I may be the dumb one. To each his own and lets quit cutting each other down for the liberals and we use that word to describe anyone who looks at the world differently. Be good and don't give the politicians any more ammo to shoot at us as they have manufactured enough and lied about the rest.

[fredj338]

Yeah, she was an emotional moron, imagine that?? There is more danger shooting indoors w/ jacketed than shooting outdoors w/ lead. Tell her to piss off & soap box on something she knows something about.

[softpoint]

I'd have explained that my diet occasionally produced poison gas, but not my shooting....

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/sarcasm.gif
Or http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/James64/Smilies/sarcasm.gif

[Sonnypie]

Makes me wonder why they were at the range at all? :confused:

I have an elder Sister who is an MFCC. (Marriage, Family, Child, Counselor)
After expounding about a 7 year old and his tales of bear hunting with his dad, and his violent video games, she is convinced this kid is going to be ruined.
I interjected that who did she think was flying the predator drones in Afghanistan? Young men and women who were really good at video games.
I've come to the conclusion she has just drank Too Much of the Kool-Aid.
Probably the same in your case....

Did they have their plastic Tree Hugger chains and locks in their trunk? :violin:

They are out there, and they vote. Obama is the proof! :twisted:

[zxcvbob]

I have an elder Sister who is an MFCC. (Marriage, Family, Child, Counselor)

I thought the MF stood for something else. (on the other hand, I thought NE meant Nebraska)

[JohnFM]

All sorts of wackos hanging around ranges these days.
I'm glad 99% of my shooting is at home.
My handgun range is about a 30 foot walk.
Table out to the rifle range is a couple hundred feet.

[Hang Fire]

Should have told him you wanted free non-lead boolits paid for by taxpayers.

[1Shirt]

Ya, what Beagle said! AND, there is an old yankee saying that applies!
"H'aint nothing more rightous than a reformed prostitute"! And the "ya can't fix stupid" line of Ron White applies as well!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Lead Fred]

Have them dig though the bank behind the targets and see how many of thier jacketed bullets have came apart, and have lead showing.

Pure hogwash.

This type of thinking is what got wheel weights banned on the left coast. Even tho lead can be found in ever state where its banned.

[madsenshooter]

IPSC matches are usually conducted outside.

Our range, an indoor range, has banned lead boolits for exactly this reason.

I don't know anything about outdoor ranges, except that everyone has to wait on everyone else to look at their targets, and you don't get to choose the length of the range you're shooting at.

At most of the outdoor ranges here, you'd have to be dating someone's daughter to be considered to go before the board and make a case that you should be allowed to draw from a holster, and then you couldn't fire faster than once a minute. Or whatever it is.

So I stuck with my indoor range.

What, no good looking daughters?

[Old Caster]

Tell them to look up on the internet which way the earth is turning and get on the appropriate side of all lead shooters. Also explain that some nut somewhere mined the lead you are using and you are dutifully replacing it but need help. -- Bill --

[beagle]

steg...sorry, not directed at anyone here. That woud be preaching to the choir./beagle


not all of us Yankees are liberals, here in PA we republicans are outnumbered 3 to 1 and I find that the libs up here aren't libs, their just follow the leader stupid. I've had one tell me that the republicans were the ones that were trying to take our guns away

[RobS]

The nutcases are all over and they take any opportunity to be, well ... the best nutcases they can be. Maybe it was a isolated instance and won't happen again. But it seems to me their kind are multiplying at an alarming rate.

Maybe not the best response, but I've been known to just keep doing what I was doing and let them rant. They can't stand it when you ignore them.


Bingo.......and it's actually quite fun to watch them self-implode and pick up there things and leave. :bigsmyl2:

[AndyC]

this guy and his wife come over and start giving me a rash of #$#& about how non-jacketed boolits should be banned and how I was endangering everyone’s health by shooting them. You see I’m spreading poison gas according to him.
Yet he's perfectly happy to drive past a school in his gas-guzzler and poison the kids with his emissions, right?

I have no patience for people like that - the term "GTFO now" comes to mind.

[175lt2]

It may seem like the NE is all liberals but that's far from the case. PA is Philly on one side, Pittsburgh on the other and Alabama in the middle. Unfortunately the cities have a larger population then the rest of the state so the normal people are out numbered.

I am a rude prick to people like that. I would have told them about the lead in the primers that they were shooting. Showed them a FMJ bullet with it's exposed base. And then proceed to tell them to stop harassing me before I ask for his membership card to get his information and then call every board member. And if he couldn't present a membership card I would get their license plate number and report them to the cops for trespassing. It's what we are supposed to do if someone doesn't have their card and are causing problems.


Brought to you by TapaTalk.

I live in northern Allegheny county (north of Pittsburgh) And even this area is sort of like Alabama, Everyone hunts owns guns and shoots but there are a few Zombies that escape the city every now and then:-)

[Jammer Six]

You guys are confused about how indoor ranges operate.

[KYCaster]

You guys are confused about how indoor ranges operate.



You're right Jammer, I'm really confused about how the indoor range nearest me operates.

His hi-tech ventilation system requires a certain percentage of fresh air intake and the cost to heat/cool the incoming air is a major expense so he doesn't use the heat/ac. When customers complain about the range being too hot/cold he just turns off the vent system so they quit complaining.

He saves a bundle on utility bills that way.

Jerry

[KaliforniaRebel]

Man, if I could remember just half the stories from the range over the years...

I do remember one guy that had noticed me firing cast made by my older brother years ago. I dropped a round near the bench and as I cleaned up ready to go home, he set up in the stall I was at. I then watched as he bent over and picked it up with a kleenex and then walked over to the trash bin to throw it away. :|

I had to think about that for a couple of days to figure out why.

[bullethead]

Ya know, a little bit of info IS dangerous. At our range, we test sample the soil 2x per year and monitor the ph. If the ph is kept within a high and low limit, the lead will not leach. Yes lead is dangerous, and our range is being proactive about testing, which surely there will be EPA & DNR mandates in the future.

[ChuckS1]

Just your admission that lead is dangerous is an indication that the other side has already won...

[popper]

Yet they are practicing to be able to put large holes in people?

[Jammer Six]

Just your admission that lead is dangerous is an indication that the other side has already won...

IF WE DON'T GO ABOUT OUR LIVES, THE TERRORIST HAVE ALREADY WON!

I remember that nonsense.

Here's the rub: advances really are made. More knowledge really is gained, on a daily, weekly and annual basis.

What if they're right?

I remember this same type of reaction in construction to asbestos. "I've handled asbestos for thirty years, and I'm fine!"

But they were right about asbestos, it kills. And they were right about lead in paint.

We don't know if they're right now. So we can't be certain that they're wrong.

[Lead Fred]

When lead is outlaws, Only outlaws will have lead

Yippy Ki Yi Yay

[ofreen]

And they were right about lead in paint.

We don't know if they're right now. So we can't be certain that they're wrong.

Yeah, no doubt it is bad to eat lead. Lead would still be in paint causing no harm if some kids hadn't eaten paint chips like they were Doritos. The anti-lead propaganda continues. With all the brainwashing going on, a lot of people think lead is right there with plutonium in toxicity. The propaganda has one purpose and that is to make ammunition more expensive and less available.

This never fails to make me laugh -

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r172/ofreen/ballisticleadtoxicitymu5-1.jpg

[Lizard333]

Thanks for the humor with that last post.

We all know that lead is bad. In fact, as a service to all those that feel lead is so bad, can send me all they have and will be happy to dispose of it for you, at a thousand FPS down the barrel of my favorite Redhawk, 255 grains at a time!! ;)
Besides lead is deadly. Especially the acute lead poisoning received from the end of a barrel.

[slim400]

So you are endangering everybody's health by shooting a non-jacketed lead bullet I would have do remind this individual the amount lay used in plumbing fixtures during the 30s and 40s along with the amount of lead used in the automotive industry to present day I will absolutely 100% guarantee that those two industries have done more damage and to the health of the people of the world in the number of people killed by a lead bullet never mind the vapors pour effects to the environment it is caused in total technology changes I will absolutely guarantee you have no clear for leg being outlawed for manufacturing not going to happen unless you're ready to go back to horse and buggy and walking

I also might suggest to the individual who is blowing your rash he only lead poisoning he should be concerned about is what comes from the end of a barrel

[mpmarty]

They took the lead out of paint because all the ghetto babies were teething on the painted surfaces and ingesting lead. Too bad as it would have eliminated some of our current social problems.

[2Tite]

If this is a club range...Don't renew their membership. They are troublemakers you don't need them around. There's nothing more dangerous to a club than this kind of stupidity coming from a club member. Death from within.....................They get a voice and start with this **** at meetings and such and actually find support....pass stupid rules and regulations etc. You lose good members out of frustration and these folks take over. I've seen it happen.

[Stephen Cohen]

I believe it was Col Cooper, who said its better to remain silent and thought ignorant, than open your mouth and remove all doubt. Seems he was right.

[finishman2000]

IF WE DON'T GO ABOUT OUR LIVES, THE TERRORIST HAVE ALREADY WON!

I remember that nonsense.

Here's the rub: advances really are made. More knowledge really is gained, on a daily, weekly and annual basis.

What if they're right?

I remember this same type of reaction in construction to asbestos. "I've handled asbestos for thirty years, and I'm fine!"

But they were right about asbestos, it kills. And they were right about lead in paint.

We don't know if they're right now. So we can't be certain that they're wrong.

i don't eat paint but did abuse asbestos as a kid working in construction. he is still alive and well as am I. do you reaize how many people in world dring water from lead pipes or lead joints?
I think you've been in seatle to long and you may be catching a case of the libtard.

[Rocket Man]

Some people at borned idiots.

You need to carry and MSDS for lead in your pocket every time you go there. When someone like that comes up give them a copy. They need an education on LEAD.

Some people have the attitude, don't confuse me with facts my mind is made up.

You should have told them you electro plated your lead bullets with depleted uranium. Uranium is harder than lead the coating keeps the lead dust from getting into the air. Then you tell them lead dust is less dangerous durning a full moon because the combined gravitation pull of the 2 plants is less and lead dust falls to the ground before you have time to be exposed to it.

[Jammer Six]

Lead poisoning killed Beethoven. It's been put forward that it had a lot to do with the downfall of Rome. (And they did let their poor drink and eat lead. So much for that charming bit of ignorant fear.)

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data". But it's highly amusing to listen to people who think it is.

Science is science. Fear is fear. I know which one I'll listen to.


Some people at borned idiots.

I couldn't have put it better myself. Even if I had tried.

[ofreen]

Lead poisoning killed Beethoven. It's been put forward that it had a lot to do with the downfall of Rome. (And they did let their poor drink and eat lead. So much for that charming bit of ignorant fear.)
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data". But it's highly amusing to listen to people who think it is.
Science is science. Fear is fear. I know which one I'll listen to.
I couldn't have put it better myself. Even if I had tried.

I think you may be missing the point. Nobody is refuting that ingesting lead is hazardous. The point is that it is highly unlikely a person will ingest enough pursuing the shooting sports to cause a problem.

I think the jury is still out on what Beethoven died of. Was he a bullet caster?:wink:

[FRJ]

This whole thing is laughable!!!! To think that you actually wasted your time talking to these morons and then wasted more of your time and ours by writing about it would make me laugh uncontrollably if it wasn't so sad. I handle this kind of punk by simply telling him to get out of my face or I'll peel him out of it, and I mean it. I will not suffer these fools quietly and will kick them in the head till their brains, what little they have are spilling on the ground. Kill them all let God sort them out. FRJ

[edsmith]

FRJ, tell us how you really feel,don't hold back.:bigsmyl2::kidding:

[Jammer Six]

Nobody is refuting that ingesting lead is hazardous.

Actually, a number of people here are doing just that. Several of you appear to think that eating it is the only way to ingest it.


I think the jury is still out on what Beethoven died of.

They know it was lead poisoning. What they don't know is how he was exposed to it-- they don't know how he ingested it.

The theory on Rome is tied directly to their lead pipes and the lead in their glasses, as well as their open air smelters.

[303Guy]

When I was a kid at school it was drummed into us not to be nasty to mentally retarded kids. I think it immoral and wrong to be nasty to these retards now as adults!

What I would have said to them is this - after a sympathetic look; "You flunked chemistry, didn't you? Don't feel bad, I flunked history (or something)". Then I would ask them how long they have been casting and handling lead. I would ask them for their email address, telling them I would do research into it and email them my findings. Alternative I might ask them where in hell they got that information from! (So I could check it out of course, then get back to them). Maybe I'd invite them to a discussion over a cigarette? :roll:

I grew up with leaded gasoline and so did my kids. And we're all fine - yeah right! Actually, I really am fine, physically. Not sure what the lead has done to my brain, probably nothing.

Seriously, I would attempt to win them over. They're misinformed and might be good folks once the **** has been cleared. Maybe not.:???:

The decline of Rome used to be blamed on the lead cookware the ruling class used. Has that gone out of fashion? More chance of lead ingestion from cooking in pewter cookware than lead pipes. Actually, I've been given to believe it was STD's that was the problem. Look up Roman morality (or lack thereof).

[Texantothecore]

Lead poisoning killed Beethoven. It's been put forward that it had a lot to do with the downfall of Rome. (And they did let their poor drink and eat lead. So much for that charming bit of ignorant fear.)

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data". But it's highly amusing to listen to people who think it is.

Science is science. Fear is fear. I know which one I'll listen to.



I couldn't have put it better myself. Even if I had tried.

The reason for the fall of Rome was the multiple invasions of Goths, Visigoths and other ne'er-do-wells who trashed Roman society and agriculture. A lot quicker than lead. The lead argument is ridiculous.

[KYCaster]

Lead poisoning killed Beethoven. It's been put forward that it had a lot to do with the downfall of Rome. (And they did let their poor drink and eat lead. So much for that charming bit of ignorant fear.)

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data". But it's highly amusing to listen to people who think it is.

Science is science. Fear is fear. I know which one I'll listen to.




I copied this from Wikipedia:

"There is dispute about the cause of Beethoven's death: alcoholic cirrhosis, syphilis, infectious hepatitis, lead poisoning, sarcoidosis and Whipple's disease have all been proposed.[79] Friends and visitors before and after his death clipped locks of his hair, some of which have been preserved and subjected to additional analysis, as have skull fragments removed during the 1862 exhumation.[80] Some of these analyses have led to controversial assertions that Beethoven was accidentally poisoned to death by excessive doses of lead-based treatments administered under instruction from his doctor."

I know Wiki doesn't get much respect, but my Google-fu leaves a lot to be desired, it's the first reference I found. Could you please cite a more authoritative source for the cause of his death?

If in fact lead poisoning was the cause, it appears the source of the lead wasn't from the environment, but intentionally ingested on the advice of his doctor as treatment for his other ailments.

Concerning your anecdote/data comment, after an hour or so of surfing I have been unable to find any reference to the number of children in the US who suffer from lead poisoning. I have also been unable to find any reference to the rate of lead poisoning in the populations of Galena, OH, Galena, IL, Galena, MO and Galena, KS in relation to the overall population of the US.

Since "Science is science." and "Fear is fear.", it would be nice to see what the research shows. I'm sure the scientific community has something to say about the subject, but the references I've found are all anecdote and no data.

Like I said, my computer skills are sorely lacking so I would greatly appreciate it if you would provide me with a few links to the "science" that justifies the "fear".

TIA........
Jerry :popcorn:

[zxcvbob]

Galena, OH is not a mining town. Try Picher, OK instead.
:popcorn:

[popper]

So Beethoven was poisoned by a medical dose of lead to cure syphilis? An the Chinese emperor who took mercury to keep him alive forever? And the US newspapers thought Mexico was poisoning the US troops with copper cannon balls.

[Lizard333]

I think this thread has taken a left turn.........

I seem to remember it was about shooting lead at the range.........

[bowfin]

I take it these two moonbats ride bicycles to and from the range, since an internal combustion engine's fumes would kill everybody and everything, whether in its path or wake...

[EDK]

I think this thread has taken a left turn.........

I seem to remember it was about shooting lead at the range.........

Actually, it is a RIGHT TURN because most posters are part of the great silent majority that are getting fed up with leftist moon bats who take any opportunity to bully other people via political correctness and environmental theories. They have a socially acceptable excuse to bother other people...and the approval of like minds. (Think about obnoxious ex smokers or former alcoholics/drug abusers, etc.) Too much of ANYTHING will probably be detrimental to your health. The pendulum of popular opinion has swung past a reasonable center to extremes in a lot of topics.

Thankfully, being retired has limited my exposure to people like were mentioned. I think I'd go talk to the management of the shooting range and put the offenders on his radar screen. One person complaining might not do a lot, but a second; third; and fourth might. If it is a commercial range, management will be even quicker to remove someone offending PAYING CUSTOMERS. NEVER underestimate the power of yankee dollars...regular customers who spend some money get listened to.

:redneck::cbpour::guntootsmiley:

[Jammer Six]

You're suggesting that the original poster ran into a moonbat at the range?

Okay...

I think a far more likely scenario is a heavily opinionated shooter. (You've never noticed any of those, have you?)

Our range went to no lead because of the way ranges are run-- if they're not run by a committee, they're run by an owner. Committees make decisions based on opinion, owners frequently make decisions based on business. Both are subject to influence, and I know which way the influences suggested in this thread would push me.

It's always best to obey no smoking zones. Some ex-smokers are excellent shots.

[popper]

It's always best to obey no smoking zones. Some ex-smokers are excellent shots. Same bunch that won't hire smokers because of health care costs, yet they hire 300+ # people. Or buy $60 light bulbs, cause they're 'green' and that is good. You call em moonbat, I can them too smart for my good.

[Jammer Six]

Actually, I didn't hire smokers because I was a general contractor, and it was part of our marketing. We advertised non-smoking crews, and we charged a higher price because of it. Many people told me they were happy to pay the higher price, and glad that there was a contractor who "got it". Smoking, therefore, was a firing offense at my company.

I almost never had to enforce it, the crews loved it, too.

Washington is an at-will state. I can hire you because you don't smoke, and on Tuesday start smoking, and on Wednesday fire you because you don't smoke.

[KYCaster]

Originally Posted by Jammer Six View Post
"Lead poisoning killed Beethoven. It's been put forward that it had a lot to do with the downfall of Rome. (And they did let their poor drink and eat lead. So much for that charming bit of ignorant fear.)

The plural of "anecdote" is not "data". But it's highly amusing to listen to people who think it is.

Science is science. Fear is fear. I know which one I'll listen to."



I copied this from Wikipedia:

"There is dispute about the cause of Beethoven's death: alcoholic cirrhosis, syphilis, infectious hepatitis, lead poisoning, sarcoidosis and Whipple's disease have all been proposed.[79] Friends and visitors before and after his death clipped locks of his hair, some of which have been preserved and subjected to additional analysis, as have skull fragments removed during the 1862 exhumation.[80] Some of these analyses have led to controversial assertions that Beethoven was accidentally poisoned to death by excessive doses of lead-based treatments administered under instruction from his doctor."

I know Wiki doesn't get much respect, but my Google-fu leaves a lot to be desired, it's the first reference I found. Could you please cite a more authoritative source for the cause of his death?

If in fact lead poisoning was the cause, it appears the source of the lead wasn't from the environment, but intentionally ingested on the advice of his doctor as treatment for his other ailments.

Concerning your anecdote/data comment, after an hour or so of surfing I have been unable to find any reference to the number of children in the US who suffer from lead poisoning. I have also been unable to find any reference to the rate of lead poisoning in the populations of Galena, OH, Galena, IL, Galena, MO and Galena, KS in relation to the overall population of the US.

Since "Science is science." and "Fear is fear.", it would be nice to see what the research shows. I'm sure the scientific community has something to say about the subject, but the references I've found are all anecdote and no data.

Like I said, my computer skills are sorely lacking so I would greatly appreciate it if you would provide me with a few links to the "science" that justifies the "fear".

TIA........
Jerry


The above was copied and pasted from a post I made yesterday. I ASSUME it was overlooked in the transition to a new page.


This subject has been on my mind a lot lately and I've decided that it's time to separate the facts from the BS.

Efforts to remove all traces of lead from our environment seem to be gaining momentum at an alarming rate, to the point that both sides of the debate are demanding that various government agencies get involved. Disregard the fact that that goal is impossible to achieve, what I want to know is, where can I find the scientific basis for the arguments to ban lead?

There's a thread in the political forum now about a bill in congress to preserve hunting rights on public land. One article linked stated that three million birds die from lead poisoning every year. Where did that number come from? I can't find it.

I strongly suspect it's the same kind of "science" as Gary Kleck's assertion that guns are used for self defense four million times a year. That's not a fact, that's a number extrapolated from available data. Nothing more that the author's GUESS, based on what he thinks isn't reported. So where are the numbers the lead banners base their guess on? I don't buy it when our side uses it and I definitely don't buy it when the result has a negative effect on my favorite hobby.

So can anyone; you, Jammer, in particular, since you're one of the few on this site who seem to agree with the goal of the lead banners; show me a link to any reliable data concerning the environmental impact of lead bullets.....

.....any study that shows that hunters and their families have elevated lead levels compared to non hunters?.........

.....any data concerning the number of children suffering from lead poisoning?.....

.....any study showing that people living in areas where lead bearing ore is common have a higher incidence of plumbism than the general population?......

.....any data showing that the incidence of plumbism has declined since the ban on lead in gasoline and paint?......

......anybody?........inquiring minds want to know.

Jerry

[mpmarty]

There is probably no firm proof of lead being dangerous when not eaten. I smoke and ride motorcycles because I enjoy doing so and if you don't like it please hold your breath around me as I enjoy my nicotine. I'm 73 yrs old and have smoked since I was twelve and I just know it has stunted my growth and shortened my life.

[Jammer Six]

To answer some of the questions I've been ignoring in the interest of good manners:

It's not “my” argument. The only dog I have in this fight is that I'm a shooter. I seem to have survived the change my range made when it went to no exposed lead, so I suppose I'd survive a change to all copper bullets, too. Maybe I'd even make money.

My point is different. I'll spell it out here, again, so you guys can have another shot at understanding it.

Public policy is not generated by science. It isn't even always generated by common sense. We have chosen compromise over all of those things.

My point (and here's where it gets complex) is that if the opposition introduces what it claims is science, or scientific evidence into this maelstrom, and attempts to create or change policy with it, that attempt cannot be successfully answered with arm waving, volume or contempt.

Now, there are several, equally complex sub-points here. They also appear to be confusing people.

Your charming anecdotes about riding the in the back of your father's pickup, running with scissors all your life and changing lanes without signals since before signals were invented are all completely without value. Why? Because they're anecdotes, not data. Anecdotes are useless in any conversation involving the word “science”. Science, particularly bad science, can only be answered scientifically. (Trying to answer science with anecdotes, in particular, is the worst choice available.) People don't look for value. They look for a way out. The earlier they can identify a way out, the happier they will be. So the instant they identify your sentence as an anecdote, they win. They get to stop listening, make their decision, and move on.

If you wish to affect policy, trying to shout down the opposition won't work. In fact, that is almost certain to guarantee a victory for them. If they hold up a study, like Senator McCarthy held up a “list”, and claim that it's a scientific study that shows one lead bullet from one gun fired in the Outback will kill us all, and we answer by shouting, swearing and dancing our Panic Dance, no one will read the study. Most legislators will simply look at the opposition, the study and then look at our dance, think “gun nuts”, and vote against us.

Dismissing a claim of science out of hand won't work, unless we want law like California has. Any claim the opposition makes must be investigated on its merits, and answered as if it mattered. Because, well, it does matter. Policy depends on it.

Now, note that I am not advocating in favor of anti-lead policy. Note that my point, reiterated here yet again, for those of you that even this detailed explanation failed, is this: we cannot dismiss the opposition's claims without investigating them. We cannot expect victory by denigrating them, we cannot expect policy to go our way by calling the opposition names.

And finally, since my earlier requests are apparently lost to history, if any of you come up with valid citations generated by the opposition, I'd like to read them.

[303Guy]

if any of you come up with valid citations generated by the opposition, I'd like to read them.I heard ya. I've just never heard of any valid citations ....

In my parts, like many of yours, lead shot is banned near water because water fowl eat is while foraging for food. Here's what they say in your country;

http://www.parislanding.com/toxic_shot.htm

That's for the lead shot ban. I didn't see any reference allowing us to check that the study was actually carried out or that false statics were not given or whether or not bad science was used to create the report.

Don't forget that yesterday's scientific facts are today's BS. Science evolves and gets manipulated.

[dakotashooter2]

There are a lot of Vets walking around with lead in them that doesn't seem to be adversley affecting them...

It's gotten crazy. We try to do housing rehab projects and if we are getting Federal money we have to check for lead (which costs about $1,500). If any lead is found (paint, pipes, etc.) it all has to be abated. The windows can be litterally falling out of the house but lead stuff gets top priority even if there is no money left to fix the windows. Theoretically it's OK for the house to crash down around them because it is in such poor condition...as long as the lead paint is taken care of............ makes no sense at all.........

[303Guy]

Found this quote;

“Household plumbing materials are the most common source of lead and copper in home drinking water. Corrosive water may cause metals in pipes or soldered joints to leach into your tap water.

Symptoms of lead poisoning; Mental retardation! Well, that's one of them.

Lead solubility in water;

http://www.lenntech.com/periodic/water/lead/lead-and-water.htm


WATER FLUORIDATION AND LEAD TOXICITY

Since the publication of this document,
additional concerns have been raised by Madison residents about fluoridation of public
drinking water; the vast majority focus on claims that water fluoridation may impact
behavior and neurological development and increase lead exposure.

The link;

http://www.publichealthmdc.com/documents/WaterFluoridationandLeadToxicity.pdf


Lead Toxicity:
Low-Level Environmental Exposure

Lead Poisoning Effects Neurobehavioral Changes,
Hypertension, Brain Dysfunction

By Nachman Brautbar, M.D.

Introduction
Lead poisoning is as ancient as Roman history, and indeed lead has been used extensively by the Romans and described by the Romans. The purpose of the manuscript is not to discuss classic lead toxicity and lead poisoning effects, but to address the concept of low-level environmental lead toxicity and poisoning.

Low-Level Environmental Exposure
In developed countries lead poisoning is not prevalent; however, in developing countries lead poisoning is extremely common, to such an extent that world-wide lead toxicity and lead poisoning remain the most common of occupational poisoning. The most common occupational and environmental exposures to lead are encountered in the manufacturing of lead batteries, paints and colors; lead compounds; rubber products and glass; grinding, dicing and cutting by power tools, products containing lead; sanding down from the application of lead paints and glazes; inhalation of lead oxide fumes in the demolition of old industrial buildings and cutting lead pipes with gas powered burning torches; firearm instructors; and law enforcement agents in the process of firearm instruction. The most common environmental nonindustrial exposure to lead is via the drinking water and in communities residing around incinerators, toxic dumps, and manufacturing industries utilizing lead and releasing lead into the environment. Organic lead compounds have been added to petrol as anti knock agents for over half a century, and exposure may result from handling of these compounds in refineries or during cleaning out of tanks which contained leaded petrol.

The Link;

http://www.environmentaldiseases.com/article-lead-toxicity.html

We do have to be careful with handling lead. It seams that lead dust or vapour as such is not the culprit but lead compounds from primers and the like. I haven't found anything on lead from impacting steel on a range or impacting the berm - I know the core often doesn't stay in the jacket since I've had empty jackets landing at my feet, still hot.

If flame melting lead pipe can produce toxic lead compound vapours then maybe firing corroded lead boolits could produce lead compound vapours? Not sure where we would find such corroded lead boolits .... ? Not in my gun!

As I said in a previous post, I would have engaged these folks in discussion and offered to investigate their claims and get back to them with whatever 'facts' I could find.

P.S. I was thinking that the lead shot thing was BS but now I realize it's likely true so I will now be more willing to co-operate. Maybe that report is actually fact! (But still needs checking!)

[303Guy]

It's gotten crazy. We try to do housing rehab projects and if we are getting Federal money we have to check for lead (which costs about $1,500).That's the problem - it's gotten crazy. Press Secretary James Brady has or had a piece of lead in his brain which initially caused seizures. Eventually his body encapsulated the lead and the seizures ceased. At least, that was the information given.

[303Guy]

More stuff;

When are you most at risk?
When the work you are doing produces lead dust, fume or vapour you are most
at risk. This can include:
■ blast removal and burning of old lead paint;
■ stripping of old lead paint from doors, windows etc;
■ hot cutting in demolition and dismantling operations;
■ scrap-processing activities, including recovering lead from scrap and waste;
■ lead-acid battery manufacture and breaking;
■ some painting of buildings;
■ some spray-painting of vehicles;
■ working with metallic lead and alloys containing lead, eg soldering;
■ lead smelting, refining, alloying and casting;
■ manufacturing lead compounds;
■ manufacturing leaded glass;
■ manufacturing and using pigments, colours and ceramic glazes.
How does lead get into your body?
When lead and items containing lead are processed, worked, or recovered from
scrap or waste they can create lead dust, fume or vapour. Your body absorbs lead
when you:
■ breathe in lead dust, fume or vapour;
■ swallow any lead, eg if you eat, drink, smoke, or bite your nails without washing
your hands and face.
Lead is not absorbed through the skin – except in the form of lead alkyls (an
additive to petrol) and lead naphthenate which are not covered in this leaflet. Any
lead you absorb at work will circulate in your blood. Your body gets rid of a small
amount of lead each time you go to the toilet, but some will stay in your body,
stored mainly in your bones. It can stay there for many years without making you ill.2 of 6 pages
Health and Safety

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg305.pdf

The scary part is I suffered all of the listed symptoms of lead exposure when I was young!

How does lead affect your health?
If the level of lead in your body gets too high, it can cause:
■ headaches;
■ tiredness;
■ irritability;
■ constipation;
■ nausea;
■ stomach pains;
■ anaemia;
■ loss of weight.One symptom omitted here is 'nerve pain'. I had that too! I wasn't even shooting or casting boolits then. Of course, these symptoms could be caused by others things too.

[Jammer Six]

P.S. I was thinking that the lead shot thing was BS but now I realize it's likely true so I will now be more willing to co-operate. Maybe that report is actually fact! (But still needs checking!)
Uh, oh.

That is the scariest thing I've read in this thread!

:shock:

[koehlerrk]

Had a pair of rocket surgeons ask me what I was shooting last fall from my Marlin 1894. Told 'em I was shooting home made bullets.

Oh, you mean you load them yourself?
Well yes, but I also cast my own projectiles too.
Really? What from?
Depleted Uranium.

These two packed up and left very quickly. The range officer heard the who thing, and managed to keep a straight face until they were gone.

[Lizard333]

Too funny!!! I don't think I could have kept a straight face on that one.

[zxcvbob]

Had a pair of rocket surgeons ask me what I was shooting last fall from my Marlin 1894. Told 'em I was shooting home made bullets.

Oh, you mean you load them yourself?
Well yes, but I also cast my own projectiles too.
Really? What from?
Depleted Uranium.

These two packed up and left very quickly. The range officer heard the who thing, and managed to keep a straight face until they were gone.

If you'd just said "uranium" they might not have freaked. Somehow, DU is scarier.

[hrdwarhax]

I have been reading these forums for about a year now but finally decided to make the plunge to join after seeing this thread. I wish to contribute my 2 cents

How many of us have played with a geiger counter? ever hear clicking when you arnt testing anything ? thats backround radiation. it exists. in harmess quantities but it exists. even smoke detectors, someing most people rely on for safety in their sleep, require an amount of radioactive material to function.

that being said. people dont have wars on smoke detectors. at least not as often as lead. but heres the thing. ther IS a little bit of lead in everything we do. no i have nothing to site on this so just bear with me... if we can assume that there is a bit of lead dust everywere, like radiation, in small quantities, it wont be killing us. with casting, smelting, reloading, ect. we increase our exposure and thus our lead levels increase. that is common sence.
now I firmly believe that lead IS toxic because well it is. same thing with all heavy metals.

but there are levels of toxicity you can have before you are catagorized as "poisoned" hell, getting an actual reading on lead tests should be poisoned but its called normal.
anyway. there are ways to get lead out of your system. think, what do we use to remove zink from leadpots? sulfer. eating foods high in sulfer. onions, garlic, ect. will help to remove heavy metals and other bad stuff from your body. combined with other foods and things like mustard and whole weat. you could make an amazing hamburger that can help you reduce the amount of lead in your system from a day at the range.

im sure someone will call me a liberal for this "wheatgrass" nonesense but thats ok. what im proposing is science. and to answer the thread titles question. No ranges shouldnt ban lead bullets. people eat onions and garlic anyway. they can handle a spike from sniffing or touching lead. :popcorn:

[ofreen]

The question relevant to this thread is not whether lead is toxic (it is, of course), but whether you are likely to get lead poisoning while pursuing the shooting sports. As long as you can refrain from licking your bullets or snorting the contents of your bullet trap, then history has shown that the answer is no, you are not likely to.

I have been poisoning gophers with pellets laced with strychnine for decades. Strychnine is pretty toxic stuff. So after dosing the gopher hole, I don't lick the spoon. I wash my hands. I don't sniff the carton the poison comes in. Pretty simple, really. Fortunately, though, the gophers haven't figured it out.

[303Guy]

... even smoke detectors, someing most people rely on for safety in their sleep, require an amount of radioactive material to function.Thanks. Now I'll never be able to sleep knowing there is radioactivity in my bedroom!:shock:

Welcome aboard hrdwarhax. :drinks:

So, sulphur removes lead from out bodies? So does vitamin C apparently. It even removes mercury. And if you think radioactivity is scary, think mercury. And guess what? We all have it in our teeth! Fillings. It's actually more dangerous to have mercury fillings removed than left in place. It's also dangerous to have them put in. Just eating tuna is dangerous because of mercury. So what's all this fuss about lead? Oh yes, take simple precautions and don't get obsessive about it. Stressing will do more harm than the lead! Eggs are rich in sulphur.

[41 mag fan]

First words out of my mouth would of been screw you, who the f*** do you think you are, then lastly get your a** upwind and leave my alone.
Then i'd have to plainly let them know, I don't give a flying rats a** what you think of lead.

If lead was that toxic, the human race wouldn't exist

[koehlerrk]

So, sulphur removes lead from out bodies? So does vitamin C apparently. It even removes mercury. And if you think radioactivity is scary, think mercury. And guess what? We all have it in our teeth! Fillings. It's actually more dangerous to have mercury fillings removed than left in place. It's also dangerous to have them put in. Just eating tuna is dangerous because of mercury. So what's all this fuss about lead? Oh yes, take simple precautions and don't get obsessive about it. Stressing will do more harm than the lead! Eggs are rich in sulphur.

Agreed! I cast boolits. I reload my own ammo. I shoot my firearms.

Wanna know what the results of my last lead test was? Below the minimum detectable level by the standard blood test. Not sure how low that is, but if my doc can't find any evidence of lead in my blood, I'm thinking it's not an issue.

So how do I achieve these amazing results? Basic hygiene!

I wash my hands after casting or loading. I cast in the garage with the door open and a fan blowing past me to the outdoors. I keep my casting area picked up. Simple, basic precautions, and it works.

[trapper9260]

There is too many out there dose not really understand about things that orthers do and then try to push there ways on someone else. It is not only with lead bullets but also with anything else. I see it with trapping and with hunting . There is some you can explain and change there minds as long you go past there thinking ,I have gone to the point that of just that the extremand they start to think different. I done it with trapping when I was out scouting a area and I had them mouth off to me and after I was done they hope to see me back and I told them you will not because you told me not to come back and they did not know what to think after. As for the club and for what was first posted they need to be remove from the club because they are not up to for what they are there for .As for what was written before ask for there card if they are there and take the info and have them banned.there are too many that join a club or membership to something to get info for who they really belong to and use it for ammo on there way of thinking.

[Jammer Six]

Trapper, I don't understand anything you said.

[w30wcf]

There I was having a conversation on the firing line with a guy about how fun it is to cast and shoot my own bullets, when this guy and his wife come over and start giving me a rash of #$#& about how non-jacketed boolits should be banned and how I was endangering everyone’s health by shooting them. You see I’m spreading poison gas according to him. Im a southern gentleman I don’t release gas unless a finger is offered prior to the event. I might be able to understand if we were in an indoor range but we were outside with a stiff wind to boot.

You know, one of the reasons I go to the range is to escape all the liberal BS that I’m bombarded with on a daily basis, and to be around people with some sense. I hope this isn’t a trend.

This would have gotten them to thinking...... "Well now, if that's what you believe, you best remove the wheel weights from your tires. Just think how much they are contaminating the air.....for every 1,000 miles you drive, your lead wheel weights have traveled 11,180,000 feet (assuming 14" wheels x 4). Compare that to the measly 300 feet my bullets are traveling. Yep, best get those wheel weights off, pronto!.....[smilie=l:

w30wcf

[hrdwarhax]

thank you 303guy

and thank you koehlerrk. now we have some real science. im happy with how the thread has progressed.
we are all generally in agreement, lead should not be banned because if you are contaminated, you CAN remove it from your body. like, what 303 said, mercury and other heavy metals. with greator exposure comes greater chance of poisoning but simple hygene and having a diverse healthy diet can and will decrease your chance of a deadly dose.

[onesonek]

I would have asked her if she was walking home.

My 2007 research stated that there is an estimated 1814 tons of lead particulate released into the atmosphere each yr. in the USA. Compared to tire and brake particulate of 280- 290 million tons released in the USA. Of which iirc, there is 5 toxic heavy metals included.
That is my usual answer to such, which leaves the idiots stuttering if not speechless and dumbfounded.

[acsteve]

My questtion is just how long lead remains in the air as a vapor. My guess would be not very long, so unless you are eating lead sinkers it should not be a problem. Mercury vapors are also very bad but mercury is not (extreamly slightly soluable in water) so unless you are huffing vapors it is not dangerous either.
Where as muratic acid and battery acid are vapors with do great damage to lung tissue.

[koehlerrk]

thank you 303guy

and thank you koehlerrk. now we have some real science. im happy with how the thread has progressed.
we are all generally in agreement, lead should not be banned because if you are contaminated, you CAN remove it from your body. like, what 303 said, mercury and other heavy metals. with greator exposure comes greater chance of poisoning but simple hygene and having a diverse healthy diet can and will decrease your chance of a deadly dose.

No problem, glad to help out. All this talk about "XXXX is dangerous and should be banned" just gets me all kinds of upset.

As a kid, my dear old dad explained to me that doing anything could be made safe or dangerous, what made the difference was how you went about doing the job.

Keep in mind he used to weld car gasoline tanks with an oxy-acetelyne torch. I personally helped him weld over a dozen. There is a very specific procedure he followed, and if followed to the letter, well, he never had a problem welding those tanks.

Dangerous? Sure, but nothing unreasonable if you followed the correct procedure.

Funny how lots of things in life are like that.

[Jammer Six]

now we have some real science.

We do?

Great!

Where is it? May I have the citation to it, please?

[Marlin Junky]

They took the lead out of paint because all the ghetto babies were teething on the painted surfaces and ingesting lead. Too bad as it would have eliminated some of our current social problems.

Nah, it just lowered their IQ's to the level of Obama voters.

MJ

[Daffy]

Um, like oil where do these morons think lead comes from?

Reminds me of the idiot standing next to me at the handgun counter asking how well the Beretta 92fs will work if it's thrown in the mud... The guy behind the counter saw me snap my head and responded to the customer, "Probably not well, don't throw your guns into the mud."

[hubcap52]

Illustrates the difference between human intelligence and human stupidity...human intelligence has limits. You can lead a horse to reason, but you can't make them think. THE SKY IS FALLING, THE SKY IS FALLING!!! GET YOUR TIN FOIL HELMETS ON NOW!!!


P.S. Might also point out to them how toxic lead is at high speed.;)

[hubcap52]

Don't forget that yesterday's scientific facts are today's BS.

Science evolves and gets manipulated.

Yep, wasn't so many years ago that the greatest scientists and thinkers thought the world was flat or rested on a turtle's back.

Facts are just like statistics. They don't lie, but liars use them just the same. Science itself doesn't evolve. TRUE scientists continue to learn and change what they know/believe.

[Nora]

I personally think all the hype of lead hazards is a load of cr*p. I cast in the basement, without proper ventilation. I eat and drink while both casting and smelting, without washing my hands. I haven't followed the "don't do this or that" list wile handling lead in general. Every year they check for it for me on my blood draw during my annual poke and prod. Yet my levels don't show any signs of lead exposure past just breathing the air. My Dr. told me that if I don't eat the lead it's self, and continue to eat a lot of fresh green veggies as a part of my diet I will be just fine. It's worked for me so far for the past 15 years of casting so I don't think I'm gonna change just because the liberals are afraid of there own shadows.


Nora

[303Guy]

Trapper, I don't understand anything you said.I understood Trapper just fine.:drinks:
There is some you can explain and change there minds as long you go past there thinking ... Exactly. Not always easy and we're not always in the mood but sometimes these folks are ripe for 're-education' if approached right (but not always!) In this case one should remember that lead really is toxic and dangerous (especially at high speed) but these folks have been bullsh@t to and that needs correcting. If left to their misconceptions or worse, made to feel indignant, they will do harm to our hobby. If shown the light, they will likely benefit us. Maybe even join us. That's how I see it anyway. Thing is, these folks might be quite fine in their own right and not all of us are up to engaging with them but some of us are. The real issue is that there does exist such erroneous beliefs and ideas and that can be quite damaging.


My Dr. told me that if I don't eat the lead it's self, and continue to eat a lot of fresh green veggies as a part of my diet I will be just fine.Nora, that's encouraging news.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Plenty of stupid people on this rock. The biggest problem with our system of democracy is that it lets everyone vote.

When you can buy a mans vote by telling him you are going to give him stuff, and you never give him stuff, and he still votes for you again the next time cuz he's still waitng for his stuff.

That's stupid !!!

I take a more agressive stance on educating stupids. When ones comes at me with BS. My first question is where did you get that BS from? You believed who? How stupid are you? You obviously know nothing about what you are talking about!!! Why are you spreading this BS? You need to stop right now cuz you don't know what you are talking about. Do you like being used? you ARE!

I really don't like people who spread BS !!!I consider it to be LYING !!!

Do us all a favor and the next time you hear someone spreading obvious BS, call them out !! and don't be affraid to get loud and offensive. I mean jump right into their SHIP. The more agressive you are the faster they will fold up and leave.

This current administration has made a living off lying to people and betting that they wouldn't get called out on it.

Oh it wouldn't be presidential to call Obama a LIAR? That's exactly what he is! Are you supposed to lie too and just not say anything?

If people are willing to let lying go, then they will just have to live with the consequences of a liberal government. Conservatives don't generally knowingly tell lies to the public to get their way. Or at least as often or as blatantly.

I was watching the TV show "Mad Men" Last night and Roger took hjis wife to an LSD party given by some Psychs. The head psych got into "the relative degrees of truth." This is a liberal concept that states since there are no absolutes, there is no complete truth. It is always relative. This is psycho-babble, which is another word for BS. Oh, by the way "spin" is just another PC term for BS or distorting the truth towards your sides adgenda, and lying to the people.

If you watch them, Liberals all run this BS. There is no black and white, only gray. "He didn't have sex with that woman" Well in HIS MIND a BJ is not sex, so he felt he was telling the truth. We don't feel this rises to the level of treason. "WE believe the Constitution is a living breathing document."

This is the very thing that will kill our country. And you not standing up and stopping it when ever you hear it,,, is EXACTLY what they are counting on to make it happen.

If you dont stand for something, then you stand for nothing! How's that for black and white!

Randy

[Jammer Six]

I mean jump right into their yip, yip, yip.
Most ridiculous, counter-productive post I've read yet.

This is exactly why they call us gun nuts, and exactly why we have to fight for our rights at all.

If you "stand up" like that to a member of congress, you'll un-do two years of patient, productive work for every minute you speak.

[hrdwarhax]

is there a seperate thread for political talk? because this is indeed rediculous. lets be civil, we are here for the same reason, we cast boolits. so lets not do this. besides.liberals arnt the only ones who lie. in fact, i would bet republicans lie more. now before anyone besides W R gets insulted, heres why. FOX. FOX has been spinning half truths since its creation. they BLATENTLY tell lies almost every 24 hours. Mr. Bill O'Reilly for example often makes things up just to support his side ofthe argument at the time. so lets be nice to eachother. like jammer six said, this is why they call us gun nuts. we are on the same side of this world, lets not divide the only allys we have.

[Jammer Six]

There is, indeed, an entirely separate forum for political ranting, arm waving and gnashing of teeth.

Out here, it's bad manners to drag politics into a non-political thread.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I recently had to attend a CCW training session at a local commercial gun range as I had let my CCW permit expire.

The morning went well with a decent instructor who made the dull material interesting and he knew what he was talking about.

However in the afternoon his wife taught the class. She was as dull as a butterknife.

When she started to talk about "You should not use lead bullets because they will lead up your bore" and "Never fully load your magazines because the springs will take a set" is when I woke up from my hamburger and fries slumber and raised my hand.

I first told her about a fella who bought his Uncles .45 ACP that had been stored with a loaded magazine since 1943. The gun worked perfectly the first time with the ancient ammo and compressed spring when used recently. I told her that I have 3 semi auto pistols and all their magazines are fully loaded and kept that way all the time and they all seem to work OK for me.

Then I started to explain to her how and why guns would lead up with lead boolits and how important the diameter of the boolit was to correctly fill the bore and grooves etc. At this point her eyes kind of glazed over and I knew that she was not listening nor did she understand anything I was saying. I just let it go.

But during the next break I had about 10 fellow attendees gathering around me and wanting to know more about leading in a barrel etc.

When the class was finally over we trooped over to the range to qualify. Of course this range was GREEN. No nasty lead boolits allowed. We had to buy their ammo that was lead free and qualify with both our revolver and auto to get the coveted certificate. How can they justify ripping us off at $25 for a box of .38's and $30 for a box of .45 ACP's. I guess they can because the 8 hour class was free.

Now I get to trot off to the Sheriff's office to submit my fingerprints and my $97.50 to apply for the 5 year CCW permit which should be free but ain't. Then I will have to wait for about 4 months for the rubber gun squad to finally get offa their fat butts and issue me a CCW.

[youngda9]

Mr. Bill O'Reilly for example often makes things up just to support his side ofthe argument at the time. so lets be nice to eachother.
You're confusing an opinion show with a news telecast. Two COMPLETELY different things.

[303Guy]

What we do not want to do is present ourselves as moon bats. Specially not aggressive moon bats. That'll remove any last vestiges of doubt from the minds of liberals and misinformed ordinary people as to the harmful effects of lead. Imagine this, here's a boolit caster getting all aggressive. That's proof that casting boolits makes one aggressive which is one of the alleged symptoms of lead exposure. It doesn't of course but any unfriendly reaction from us will be construed as proof that lead should be banned.

Remember that BS is more convincing than fact. Fact has to make sense and can't be altered on the spur of the moment to support our claims!

[Jammer Six]

The moonbats look good compared to the strutting and posing going on in this thread. And they would certainly accomplish a lot more opinion manipulation and legislation.

[gandydancer]

Man, that's unreal in Alabama. Now, it was in CA or in the NE, I might understand. Sounds like a couple of transplanted yankees to me.

I hope you educated them on the non-hazards of firing lead bullets./beagle
That's right its all the Yankees fault. ever sense they lost that war. oh wait did they lose?? :kidding: psst the guy in the funny hat is watching. :rolleyes:

[hickfu]

Crash Corrigan,

At least you can get a permit in Las Vegas, I live in Kalifornia where you dont have any rights to carry a gun. The local gun dealer went to the Chief of Police to get a CCW as he transports very large sums of cash, guns and ammo to and from gun shows and his home. He was denied!!! It used to be a law here that you could carry openly but you couldnt have the gun loaded but Ventura county changed that law when someone actually tried to carry his weapon like that.

I want to move out of this liberal state and into a nice 2nd amendment friendly state.


Doc

[mpmarty]

Show me a good loser and I'll Show you a LOSER!

[Marlin Junky]

...Mr. Bill O'Reilly for example often makes things up just to support his side ofthe argument at the time.

You need to back that statment up with an example that actually happened. I've been watching FOX news and the O'Reilly Factor since their inception... Bill O'Reilly never makes things up. Occasionally he'll agree with a more progressive approach to social matters (but he's a damn city boy, so I can't expect a perfect record from him); HOWEVER, he never makes things up.

MJ

[Casper29]

It just go to show you that they have no idea of what they are talking about, I would have told them that they have no right to speak about something that they are not educated in.

Better luck on your next putting.

[Shiloh]

They don't know what they are talking about.
Ida said is that a fact, ignored them and gone about shooting the rest of the rounds.

Shiloh

[Cadillo]

LIke everyone else who does not reload, these people do not know that the base of every FMJ bullet is open and that upon firing some of this lead is vaporized. (I keep a couple of FMJ projectiles in my range bag just in case this comes up).

Wrong!

There are "Incapsulated" FMJ bullets on the market. I have loaded and shot many of them. I don't need them unless thay are priced competively in calibers I don't cast for, but they do indeed exist. No exposed lead unless the jacket breaks downrange.

And I'm not speaking of plated, but jacketed.

[303Guy]

Yeah but the exposed lead on the base does not get evaporated anyway. Wait - can I prove that? Actually, no but if I say it fast enough no-one will challenge me.:roll: But I believe it to be true.

Here's the rub, when gas cutting occurs, is there lead vapour being produced?

[MikeS]

You need to back that statment up with an example that actually happened. I've been watching FOX news and the O'Reilly Factor since their inception... Bill O'Reilly never makes things up. Occasionally he'll agree with a more progressive approach to social matters (but he's a damn city boy, so I can't expect a perfect record from him); HOWEVER, he never makes things up.

MJ

I used to watch O'Reilly, but quit when I found out he's anti-gun.

[Marlin Junky]

I used to watch O'Reilly, but quit when I found out he's anti-gun.

He's a self prescribed moderate (i.e., a weak kneed, non-committal, NY nancy boy) who has said in the past "...I think the folks have a right to own guns."

MJ

[Cadillo]

He's a self prescribed moderate (i.e., a weak kneed, non-committal, NY nancy boy) who has said in the past "...I think the folks have a right to own guns."

MJ

Just last week, when he was speaking of the Travon Martin thing, I heard him say that he feels that this country needs more and stricter gun control. He lost a fan that night!

He's not looking out for me!