Inside the CMP

[Blacksmith]

American Rifleman goes inside the CMP. Youtube video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScoZf8KjVVY

[MtGun44]

Very interesting. Thanks for posting.

Bill

[Ramar]

There should be a warning that it is "extremely difficult to only own 1". I've got my fingers and toes covered.
Ramar

[JeffinNZ]

Fantastic!!!!

[GARCIA]

75 minutes from the house!!!!

Way too close for the wife:)!!!

Tom

[Blacksmith]

Garcia
There is a guy on the CMP forum who people pay to hand select rifles for them at the CMP stores. He picks the gun and hands in their paperwork and CMP ships direct to the customer. IIRC the cost is about $30 for the service. I wish I was as close as you.

[MtGun44]

Good point Ramar -

I have several friends that are Garand collectors and have quite a large number. One has
the standard reply when asked how many Garands he has, he tells them the number
(like 25 or something) and then quickly adds, with a twinkle in his eye - "But I can
stop any time."

I passed this on to another Garand collector and he laughed out loud and vowed to steal
the comment.

Bill

[Blacksmith]

It's called Granditius and it is caught by handling and shooting Garands. The CMP is susposed to sell some in .308 caliber soon and I am saving my pennies.

[bowfin]

There was an article in a Garand collector's magazine about a vet in Korea that they interviewed for a story. This guy, like so many other soldiers and marines in that time period, was still able to rattle off the serial number of the Garand he had carried. Just for kicks, the author of that article ran the serial number through the CMP AND THEY HAD THAT RIFLE!!!

The CMP jumped in and fixed up the old vet's Garand real pretty, and then everybody came up with the money to buy it and incorporated a surprise ending to the article with another visit with that vet. I almost tear up just remembering the picture capturing the vet the very instant he recognizes the serial number.

[MtGun44]

Very cool! What a reunion.

Bill

[perotter]

I wish that the CMP would get modern rifles, youth rifles out into the market at a low cost. They don't even have a centerfire rifle for youth at a reasonable price. I checked into M1 carbine from them for the kid & new AR15 was cheaper to put together.

I don't see how selling old rifles to collectors has anything to do with training the youth of America to shoot. They claim that there mission is training the youth(only 1200 a year), but it looks like they are training & arming a Volkstrum of old guys.

[Ramar]

perotter,
Wow!! I don't know where to begin. So i won't. Easier on the Mods.......
Ramar

[perotter]

Their tax exempt status is based on them training the youth of America to shoot well. What are they doing to meet that to requirement? I don't mean to ruffle feathers, but maybe they should look at changing what they are doing & gear it to the youth. Or lose their tax exempt status.

I wouldn't really care if they paid income tax.

[Blacksmith]

You are under some misconceptions about the CMP. The charter of the CMP
mandates these key “functions for the corporation:


(1) To instruct citizens of the United States in marksmanship;

(2) To promote practice and safety in the use of firearms;

(3) To conduct competitions in the use of firearms and to award trophies, prizes, badges, and other insignia to competitors.

The law specifically states: In carrying out the Civilian Marksmanship Program, the corporation shall give priority to activities that benefit firearms safety, training, and competition for youth and that reach as many youth participants as possible.

So the CMP teaches all citizens of the United States with an emphasis on youth. It does this very well through its affiliated clubs who instruct and provide shooting opportunities for many thousands of youths every year. And it has done so for the more than thirty years I have been teaching young people gun safety and marksmanship. It helps in many ways through providing firearms, ammunition and targets at discounted prices through its sales programs to affiliated clubs. It also runs many matches including the National Matches in Camp Perry.

They also sell modern youth rifles at a reduced cost, now mostly air rifles and .22 target rifles, check their rifle sales page. They offered surplus .22 target rifles at reduced prices for many years but these are now all sold. They also sold other center fire rifles such as 1903 Springfield’s, 1917 Enfield’s and M1 carbines for less than the cost on the open market but alias these are all gone also.

The rifles they are primarily selling now are M1 Garands and some are going to collectors but others such as the CMP Specials with new barrels and new wood have no collector interest and are of interest to shooters. These Garands and accessories are surplus rifles supplied by the military and the proceeds from the sales are how the CMP funds their other programs.

The CMP is very open to suggestions and if you have ideas on how it can be improved I recommend that you go to the CMP Forum, it operates similar to this one, and they have a section to directly communicate with the CMP Chief Operating Office Orest Michaels. Mr. Michaels responds to posts there almost daily including some weekends. I know they listen because some of my positive suggestions have been adopted.

[perotter]

Thanks Blacksmith. I will communicate with them.

[shooterg]

CMP affiliated Clubs/BSA still get rimfire ammo, BB's, pellets at a good price also. Also, check out the Rimfire Sporter match info.

[Dutch4122]

There is a guy on the CMP forum who people pay to hand select rifles for them at the CMP stores. He picks the gun and hands in their paperwork and CMP ships direct to the customer. IIRC the cost is about $30 for the service. I wish I was as close as you.


I'm not surprised to hear of this practice. It's exactly this type of "volunteer" worker that gives the CMP a bad name. There was talk years ago on different collector sites of the wonderful 1903's & 03A3's that were coming out of the CMP. Many posted pictures of these fantastic rifles that appeared to be unfired and still cosmo'd up after the last overhaul. Occasionally there were posts by individuals that "volunteered" at CMP facilities unpacking, checking, grading, repacking & filling orders. I should have realized what was going on; however, I'd seen 03A3's at local gun shows for sale that were recent CMP guns and I was impressed with their condition. So, I took the bait and ordered a Remington 03A3 for $450 + shipping. What I got was a gun that should have been stripped and used for spare parts. The stock looked like it had spent a decade jammed behind the seat of a 2 1/2 ton truck where deep gouges were carved into the side of the forstock & handguard in multiple places. There were dings & divots all over the thing and many were so deep that there was no way to steam them out. The rear sight was completely stripped out and needed replacement. And, the muzzle was so worn from a cleaning rod that the rifling was barely noticeable at the end of the bore. Also, a loaded round would fit in to the muzzle so far that a couple thousandths of the case neck would enter the muzzle. Basically what I got was a serviceable action.

Knowing full well that I'd signed an agreement to accept the rifle "as is" and that I had taken my chances & lost; I accepted what I had been sent. Since then I have traded off the original beaver chewed stock to a forum member here that wanted a stock to sporterize. Then I located a new in the wrap 1943 2 groove barrel purchased from another forum member here at Cast Boolits. A new rear sight was purchased from Sportsman's Guide. Last of all I located and bought a very nice 03A3 stock also for sale by a Cast Boolits forum member. An extra tall USMC style front sight was ordered from a guy named Bill Bentz that makes reproductions of 1903 and 03A3 front sights. The rifle was rebarreled by "badgeredd" and new sights as well as the new stock installed. I'm very happy with how this rifle turned out. The problem is, I have easily $750 before I ever fired a shot into a rifle that was supposed to cost $450 ready to go out of the box after the cosmo was cleaned out of it!

To say the least, the CMP will never get another penny of my money. The collectors who were working as "volunteers" and filling orders for their buddies with the best hand picked rifles probably screwed a lot of shooters. So much for random selection, eh?

[Blacksmith]

Matt

My experiance with ordering rifles from CMP has been very different from yours. I have ordered five and two recievers and have been more than pleased with every one. These were straight orders with no friends or special requests and every one was better than described for the condition I ordered. I have never ordered a Rack Grade but Field grade and above have always exceeded my expectations. A number of my friends have had similar positive results.

The fellow I mentioned is not a volunteer but someone who makes several trips a year to the CMP stores and hand selects rifles from the racks open to anyone who visits the stores. He offers this service for anyone who because of distance or other reasons can not personally visit the store. The rifles are then shipped by CMP and all background checks and paperwork is the same as for anyone ordering directly. He just acts as an agent.

From what I have seen posted on their forum if you recieved something that did not match the description they would have made it right. They have exchanged rifles, swaped stocks, and replaced broken springs and parts even after people have been shooting then for awhile. Their customer service is well thought of by most customers.

I am sorry you had a bad experiance with your purchase and can understand your reluctance to be burned again. However, I have caught Granditus and five is not enough.

[Dutch4122]

Matt

My experiance with ordering rifles from CMP has been very different from yours. I have ordered five and two recievers and have been more than pleased with every one. These were straight orders with no friends or special requests and every one was better than described for the condition I ordered. I have never ordered a Rack Grade but Field grade and above have always exceeded my expectations. A number of my friends have had similar positive results.
The grade of rifle I ordered for $450 + shipping was in the price range of recent CMP Greek return rifles ($450-$500) that I had seen for sale at local gun shows at that time. Those rifles were in much better condition than the rifle I received. I'll state again that the rifle I received should not have been sent out as what would be considered a servicable complete rifle. This rifle was beyond rode hard & put away wet. It had the original finish, or what was barely left of it. There were no parkerized replacement parts on it. The bore was in the shoddy condition mentioned above; and there is no way that muzzle would have gauged as acceptable for even jacketed bullets. Again, the rear sight was stripped out and unusable. The stock issues were just cosmetic so I can concede that they would not have impacted the function of the rifle. This rifle should have been stripped down and the action sold by itself. I will never believe that this rifle should have left Anniston in this condition. I do not believe that this rifle was actually "inspected" before shipment to me. Remember, this was during a time when 1903 & 03A3 collectors were posting regularly about "volunteering" at the Anniston Depot. Many were discussing timing their orders so that their collector buddies would be filling orders when their paperwork came in. It's obvious whose orders got all the attention.
The fellow I mentioned is not a volunteer but someone who makes several trips a year to the CMP stores and hand selects rifles from the racks open to anyone who visits the stores. He offers this service for anyone who because of distance or other reasons can not personally visit the store. The rifles are then shipped by CMP and all background checks and paperwork is the same as for anyone ordering directly. He just acts as an agent.Interesting, so what you are saying is that he goes to the CMP Store with all the paperwork filled out & signed by the buyer; as well as photocopies of the buyers identification. He then picks out a rifle for the buyer and turns the rifle & paperwork over to CMP staff so that the order can be processed and sent to the buyer? I'm sorry, but that sounds to me like somebody has an inside track.

From what I have seen posted on their forum if you recieved something that did not match the description they would have made it right. They have exchanged rifles, swaped stocks, and replaced broken springs and parts even after people have been shooting then for awhile. Their customer service is well thought of by most customers.Rifles are sold "as is with no warranty expressed or implied." What sticks in my head here is that at the time they were not accepting returns or exchanges. What you got was what you got. Maybe that has changed or maybe my memory isn't perfect as to what I read on their website in the spring of 2005 when the rifle came in. I do remember checking their site after the rifle came in and realizing I was stuck with a ***. Another thing I do remember is a written policy that rifles were taken randomly from storage based on the grade you paid for, checked for headspace & inspected, and packaged for shipping. Why were the defects not caught?

I am sorry you had a bad experiance with your purchase and can understand your reluctance to be burned again. However, I have caught Granditus and five is not enough.

With all this being said, I don't want to sound like a whining brat here. However, the condition of the rifle I received was definately not even what you call a rack grade. It had defects that should have been caught, but weren't. In hindsight I should have called CMP and raised hell with them. But, at the time what I read on their site & in the paperwork lead me to believe that it would'nt do any good. If I was wrong, then so be it. Basically a painful ($300 extra) lesson learned. I have had the defective parts replaced and will enjoy the rifle for what it is.

Blacksmith, I wish you continued success with the M1 Garands you order from CMP in the future.

[Blacksmith]

Matt

If it was sold as a functioning rifle and what you received was obviously not you should have complained I am sure I would have. Mistakes are made in all business and perhaps orders got mixed I know it is to late to fix it and I truly hate to see anyone get the short end of any deal. You are right in warning people about your experiance, that is how we protect each other. Now people have two inputs and they can proceed with due caution.

[Dutch4122]

Blacksmith-

Agreed. Anybody who reads my statements above should take them for what they are; just my experience. I'm sure there are more satisfied customers of CMP than not. I have no problem with that or anybody that is a happy customer of CMP. They just won't be getting any more of my money. Hopefully I'm in a very small minority of their past customers.

Like I said before, my rifle is "fixed" and I'm going to enjoy it from now on for what it is.

[bearcove]

ALL colectors do is hoard things so the average person can't afford them due to a false scarcity they create.

And when things continue to get slower here in the states demand will colapse and they will be holding the bag.

[C1PNR]

Wow, I've got to hold my tongue or be castigated by our overworked moderators.

I have 2 Garands, one I purchased from a private individual in the 70's and one I purchased through the old army run program for $165.00 plus shipping, after completing a round of competition in High Power using a borrowed Garand.

As for the "Collector" status of these rifles, almost ALL have been through several rebuilds over the years, same as the Carbines. As for the collector status rifles, all correct, C & D models, etc., you see them on their auction site, not as purchases by mail.

I have mine for one purpose only and that is to shoot. Now the match condition rifle I bought from a private individual is used very infrequently, but the other one is taken to the field, usually with an 03-A3 or 1903 Mark I as companion, whenever I feel the "urge" to reconnect with the rifle I used through Boot Camp and the first 2 + years of active duty.

If you receive a bad one, contact CMP, they are VERY good about making things right.