Lubing problem help please

[lar45]

Hi everybody
One of my customers emailed me with a problem he's having with my commercial red lube.
He says the lube is rolling out of the lube groove and onto the base of the bullet. I don't have a Star sizer, so I'm hoping someone here might have an Idea of how to fix it.
(200gr swc 45acp #68 h&g)
http://www.lsstuff.com/temp/rolling-01.jpg
http://www.lsstuff.com/temp/rolling-02.jpg

He's tried running the temp up and down, but that didn't help.
Any ideas?
TIA
Glenn

[popper]

Miss-alignment of the lube groove and holes in lubrisizer? Don't have a star, but there is NO lube in the groove. Temp won't make any difference if you try to just lube the drive band.

[C.F.Plinker]

Are the boolits undersized with respect to the sizer diameter?

[ku4hx]

Is the problem limited to your red lube or has he had it happen before? The only time I ever had something similar to this was the result of running a bullet through a die that was too big for it. From the pictures it looks to me the driving bands are not getting touched so there's no sealing taking place.

[runfiverun]

he is running the lube temp too hot.
the undersized is a good idea also, but they would have to be .002 the get squeezing of the lube up and down the boolit.
i think he is trying to lube while the boolit is still in motion also, the sizer pushed the boolit into place and then has a cam over spot that opens the valve releasing lube to the stationary boolit.
the lube isn't the issue it's his set up.
he needs to look at how he has things set up and remember its size,cam,lube.
it feels like one motion but is two separate steps.
the boolits grooves also have to be aligned with the holes.
i run your red at about 20* lower than the magma lube and with 10-15 psi higher pressure.
tell him to turn his punch up into the sizer about two or three full turns and turn the heat down.

[CPL Lou]

Maybe they were using a .454" sizing die on .452" bullets ?
Or maybe even a .459" die ?

Just a thought.

[454PB]

I agree with the others, it looks like the sizing die is either oversized, or the punch is not set to align the boolit with the lube holes and lube is squirting in while the boolit is exiting the die.... or both.

[clintsfolly]

Looks like he's going nose down and going in about half the width of the GG to far. Move the top punch up that far. LAR 45 make Great lube at a good price. IMHO Clint

[geargnasher]

Popper and Run have it. The boolits do not appear undersized for the die, the bands are clearly "shined" from firm contact with the die. He just doesn't have the holes lined up with the grooves, and possibly too much heat. Ask the customer to refer to the Star instructions for setting proper depth and timing the lube charge.

Gear

[Dutch4122]

I agree. Too much heat and it looks to me like the die holes are aligned so that they are half in the lube groove and half on the band. Also, if the bands are not completely filled out (rounded on the front edge) the lube can "squirt" over onto the band as the lube pump is activated at the bottom of the stroke.

Hope this helps,:mrgreen:

[badgeredd]

Lar45,

How does your "commercial lube" compare to Cannuba Red?

I only know what a friend has told me about Star Lubers, but when I first saw the picture, I immediately thought there was an alignment problem with the dies holes and the GG. I know I have duplicated the look in a Lyman Luber and a Mepos sizer when trying to get things set to "just" get enough lube hole exposure.

Edd

[finishman2000]

he is me lol. I ran 2-3K with lars commercial red from the last batch (the last of it) and everything was perfect. i/m using a ballisti-cast with the new dig temp set at 110. again, everything was going super until I put a new stick from the order i received last month. i started to get "blow by" so I lowered the temp to 105 and this started to happen. the lube even at that temp seems very soft, much softer than the last batch.
Glen has contacted me and stated that the wax was from a new supplier. he also said he will get some from his old supplier and remake some for me. that's great customer service!

btw the die is 452 from our lathesmith, mold is a 8 cavity saeco and the pot is a mastercaster with the base replaced with their standard base so any mold can be hand cast.

[Dutch4122]

One more thing, check your base punch to see if it has loosened up and changed depth.

Hope this helps, :mrgreen:

[runfiverun]

105 might be too hot.
looking at the lube in the pictures it is definately too hot.
see the whiteish foamy look to it?
it was on the verge of liquid and forcing it through the small holes along with some air makes it look like that.
i have seen this a jillion times.
it will have a dry crumbly feeling to it too.

[finishman2000]

yea that's kinda my point. it is supposed to be the hard commercial lube. i just sized and lubed about 2.5k of 38 wadcutters with a used mold i bought along with the saeco....a 10 cavity h&g :-D!
used at 105 and there would be up to 5 heads stuck together below the luber. not what i was expecting.

[44man]

Glen, it is not your lube!
Others hit the nail on the head. I use the lube in my RCBS and all it needs is initial warmup and no more heat. I only need to warm because my basement is colder then the rest of the house. I use a heat gun made for shrinking coverings on model airplanes, it does not get too hot and once I can move the lube, it is enough.
I would say the boolit is too small for the size die and the lube is too hot.

[lar45]

The Commercial Grade lube is a little stiffer and has an operating temp of 105-130F, Carnauba Red flows around 100F. They both melt around 162F. I haven't tried it in a rifle yet, but it works well in low and high velocity revolver loads. The Commercial Grade lube is a blend of 7 natural and commercial waxes and oils.

It looks like the lube that I sent him is too soft. I pulled a stick from the drawer and it is definatly not what it should be. I used to order my wax from a distributor in Washington, but now that I'm in Arkansas, I was looking for a supplier that was a little closer so I could save on shipping. When the wax showed up it had a different label on the outside, I called them on it and they said that they just repacaged it from a larger contianer. So I'm switching back to the original supplier and have about 100# of flux, lol.

[badgeredd]

Thanks Lars. I was just curious.

Edd

[454PB]

So I'm switching back to the original supplier and have about 100# of flux, lol.

How about offering it up at a discount for those of us that like a softer lube?

[bruce381]

"""Glen has contacted me and stated that the wax was from a new supplier. he also said he will get some from his old supplier and remake some for me. that's great customer service!""

I would bet that the differnt wax suplier is the probelm if it all worked well till you added more lube of a diferent batch with all settings the same then thats the problem.

In the lubricant business It took me a few years to learn not to fully trust lube additve suppliers when they said they had same thing as guy i was using. "its the same thing" "just diferent labels", "same chemistry" " works the same but diferent smell and color" etc yeah right be they want to sell ther version or generic addivive and sometimes it works and some time all kinds of un forseen provblems can crop up.

[bruce381]

If you look at changeing waxs as an example in a formula in additon to comparing wax melt point you need to look at wax type, penitration and oil content then make a small batch up and check melt and penitrtion againt a good sample other wise I have customers compain of too soft or too low melit etc. This is in industrial assembly lubes.

[lar45]

It was supposed to be the same brand and formula..., but I think he substituted a cheaper offbrand. I told him that I was making lubricants and not candles, so I needed it to be what was advertised. All of my other ingrediants are the same, I still have a few hundred pounds of beeswax from Idaho and all the other additives are from the same suppliers, so the only change was this one wax. I have more wax on the way from my old supplier in Washington, I was just looking at saving some shipping charges, lol.
I have some red, but the bulk of it is Blue. I'll clean out a luber and see if it will run without any heat.

[finishman2000]

blue is fine for me, as long as is harder than the last batch.

[44man]

It still baffles me that a lube will roll out of the grooves and get between the size die and boolit????
Does the die have some taper to it, maybe too much?
Glen will find out. I suppose some ingredients just will not stick to the lead but is sticking to the die.
I might be the goofiest luber here. I rub soft lube in the grooves with my fingers and run through over size Lee dies to remove excess! :bigsmyl2: Messy and slow but I refuse to tumble lube and never have enough lube to pan lube.
It is very rare when I get out the lube sizer.

[454PB]

Back when I started casting and had two little kids and no money, I lubed all my boolits with my fingers. No sizing, I couldn't afford it. They shot very well.....but were sure labor intensive.