dirty 30-30 necks with hotter loads

[popper]

I've seen really dirty necks when shooting plinker loads, but not near full loads. 170 FN PB CB AC 25g/30g lever powder w/dracron fill. 30g is MUCH dirtier than 25g, primers are flatter, recoil is MUCH greater. Also noticed that almost all holes in the targets had rifling stipple marks on the right side of the holes, but all holes are very round. Best I can tell, targets are square on with shooting position, no wind. Only thing I can think of is the backboard is moving when hit - but that doesn't sound right. 25g grouped, nothing else did. Probably AC is too soft.

[ku4hx]

What's "lever powder"? OK searched and found "leverevolution".......

[Rocky Raab]

First thing I'd suggest is to leave out that cursed dacron. (End of anti-filler tirade. For now.)

[HangFireW8]

Once you get to thirty grains of any powder in the 30/30, there is really no need for filler, whether you're a filler advocate or not.

[Dthunter]

When it comes down to if you need a filler or not, let the accuracy and load specs(SD &ES) decide that for you.
If your accuracy standards are being met, then you DONT need it.

If your accuracy needs are not being met..... Well, more experimenting is required.

I have had powder charges that were higher than 90% shoot better (from 5-6" groups down to 2-3" groups at 200 yards) with the addition of Dacron. Only testing and comparing it will tell you if its better or not.

The dacron seems to aid in sealing the combustion gases as well as hold the powder charge in a repeatable, more consistant position.
Some shooters claim that dacron leaves a hard residue.
I have seen this residue on my case necks. But it comes off quite easily.
This residue has only shown up on lighter/ lower velocity loads.

I clean my rifle regularily, and there is no evidence of a build up.

Hopefully some one can benefit from my experience.
Straight shootin & keep it fun!

[Larry Gibson]

I would suggest that LeveRevolution powder is not a good powder for that application with a PB cast bullet. That powder is too slow burning and only burns well within a certain psi range and your loads for a PB'd bullet are not within that range.

The dacron filler, while excellent in many applications, is not a "cure all" and will not make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I suggest a faster burning powder such as Buullseye, Unique, Red Dot or something similar for accurate loads with that PB'd bullet from 1000 - 1500 fps. No filler or wads should be necessary with one of those.

I shall ignore the "baited" anti dacron filler posts[smilie=s: However, in this context they are correct in that the filler is not needed because that powder (LeveRevolution) is not needed for that 170 gr PB'd cast bullet.

Larry Gibson

[badgeredd]

I'd try different powders. It sounds like you're not getting a complete powder burn as stated above. 3031 among others work very well in the 30-30. Just start out at the start loads from loading data for a like weight bullet and you'll find THE load quickly.

Edd

[popper]

Actually the lever powder tightens groups up by 50% but I was getting some vertical stringing without the dacron, GC or PB @ 25g (336 MG). 7.5 unique was fun but group was ~4" @ 50, 25 Lever gave me 5" x 1/2 @ 50, same day, same everything but powder(50/50 Pb/#2/ with some shot, AC PB, Recluse lube). Cleaned it this morning, chore boy got a lot of small speck and the grey gunk out, probable accuracy problem. slight leading all along the bore. One case, (30g) had a split neck, none annealed after ~ 10 reloads. All the 30g had really sooty necks. Annealing may solve that problem, I'm guessing the neck doesn't seal at that load, just like lite loads. Been shooting cast in this rifle for ~ a year, never had the lead markings on 1 side of the target hole before. Changed ranges first of the year so maybe it is backstop, this one uses pretty flimsy ones. This rifle likes the lever powder better than 4895 or unique plus I load FTX and it likes lever. Next task is to anneal and shoot WD CB's, GC and PB.

[runfiverun]

the alloy is not too soft.
the plain base is getting hammered and is most likely experiencing gas cutting, deformation, and a poor exit.
the dacron will not protect the base enough to stop this.
and you can see it is leaving some residue on the case mouth area telling me you are using too much of it.
like the others have said your recipe is one for disaster.
if you want THIS boolit to perform [accuracy wise] work within it's peramiters.
if you want to shoot the rifle like a jaxketed round you will need to use another boolit.
one with a gas check, that is the right size,hardness,and with a lube that will perform up to the task.

[popper]

Dacron was to solve vertical stringing problem. Neck soot is just like unique lite loads, no sign of dacron residue, but there is LOTS of soot. Range trip was for 2 tests, dacron to solve one problem (it did - 25g is ~ 50% case fill) and see if HT hardened base would give better performance. It didn't, that I could tell. Next will be WD PB, HT base to soften it, as someone here suggested. I just started casting and know I have a lot to learn.

[Larry Gibson]

I understand the dacron was to reduce vertical stringing. It does that by solving powder positioning for a powder that is not igniting uniformly. You may like the LeveRevolution Powder but from the "soot" and "grey gunk" are telling you the rifle/cartridge/bullet do not like it.

You'll be far better served with a faster burning powder. Try 2400 starting at 13.5 gr with a dacron filler and work up. Yes the FTX works great with LeveRevolution powder, that's the bullet the powder was developed for. I did a lot of testing of LeveRevolution with my own GC'd 311041 at 177 gr and it didn't burn efficiently until 34 gr was hit and that was running 2150 fps out of my rifle. That is way too high a velocity for any accuracy from a PB'd cast bullet. You'll find accuracy will go after 1600 fps or so.

Sometimes using what we want to use for a powder isn't going to work.

Larry Gibson

[badgeredd]

Dacron was to solve vertical stringing problem. Neck soot is just like unique lite loads, no sign of dacron residue, but there is LOTS of soot. Range trip was for 2 tests, dacron to solve one problem (it did - 25g is ~ 50% case fill) and see if HT hardened base would give better performance. It didn't, that I could tell. Next will be WD PB, HT base to soften it, as someone here suggested. I just started casting and know I have a lot to learn.

It just occurred to me that along with annealing your necks, you may need to size your boolits a bit bigger to get a decent seal with lighter loads.

If I am understanding you correctly, you are after a good plinking load with reduced recoil. That said, :(:( I think you REALLY need to consider a different powder. Sometimes we just HAVE to change our tactics to get what we want. We can't insist on doing it one way when there are better solutions. There are a lot of powders in the shotgun powder group that will work and work well for 1500 FPS and slower loads. Try Bullseye, Reddot, Greendot, Bluedot, Herco, and so on. I have used 700X for light loads in the 30-30 with great success.

Maybe you need to define your objective in more detail so we can be helpful with passing on OUR experience.

Edd

[geargnasher]

The Lever powder is a fine example of why most of the time we cannot buy commercially loaded powders in cannister form. An ammo company specs a lot of powder for a very specific purpose with certain bullets, case capacity, velocity numbers, and the all-important peak pressure in mind. The powder manufacturer tailors a propellent to those specs and makes train-car loads of it. Lever was designed for one thing, to work at one pressure in two cartridges with two bullet designs. At that, it excels. But take it out of its "element" and it falls on its face faster than most cannister-grade powders will, because they are designed to be more versatile, although necessarily less optimized for a particular use.

I think 2400 is probably one of the slowest clean, efficient powders for that application, Unique might be better for up to 1400 fps.

Gear

[popper]

But it WORKS. Left is RD311165 GC 30g lever. Lower right is RD311165 GC 23g lever (carolinabullets - alox). Upper right is RD311165 PB (my cast @ 170, 45/45/10) 23 g lever. No dacron in any @ 50 y, crosses are POA, all shoot right and some down as expected. Maybe the 23-24 g is max for this bullet & TL, PB of course. Yesterdays tests weren't hardly worth the gas. At any rate, I figured out 2 problems (I think).
Lower pic on left is RD311165 GC 23 lvr, right is LC 170 GC 4895. Shooting from bags @ 100, sorry when I re-wrote the labels I get the backwards. That 4 shot CL is as good as I can do with FTXs. So I am trying to find the accuracy limit, what I can do to improve. Really just playing in my sandbox, which is fun. Oh, first pic, I drop the case base first on the table and then single load, settles the powder.

[rexherring]

Also consider AA5744 as it works well in my .30-30 with 170 gr Pb. About 19-20 grs and it's not position sensitive.

[HangFireW8]

I only see one pic, is it the 100Y or the 50Y?

[badgeredd]

popper,

I don't want to be a butt here, but I do have a concern that is nagging at me about your loads. I'm a little worried that you are getting into SEE territory with your loads.If Leverevolution is a double base powder, your case filling sounds like you are getting into very dangerous territory.

Also, I see you haven't stated what you want from the rifle. And ....does it really work? It seems you're having problems that make me think maybe not.

Edd

[popper]

Had to edit and add the 2nd. BMP no likey here. Round is 100, square is 50. I use Unique for pistol and plinking rifle loads. Don't need to change that. If SEE is chamber ringing, etc., no problems, 200 or more rnds down the pipe. I was surprised that lever worked so well at BELOW min loading, but the tables are for J-B. QL doesn't have it yet, according the RD. I am NOT recommending lite loads of lever powder. I am NOT an authority on it. For me, it acts like a more accurate H4895, for cast. The 336 MG shoots better than I can. I'm trying to find the limit of MY CB's and see if I can improve - hint- 308 AR. I can buy Jerry's @ $75/500 and get good accuracy all day long. What can I do on my own? How hard can I push mine with accuracy, not looking for blazing fps. Maybe I hit the limit, but my sizer is out of round, necks not annealed, etc. Besides, if I don't spend it Obummer will take it.

[Rocky Raab]

Larry, I am anti-dacron, but in this instance you are quite correct: it is neither needed nor wanted. That was my actual point.

Popper, I know you want to keep doing what you are - but then why ask for advice?

Nonetheless, I'll offer mine - take it or leave it. Assuming your bullets are sized correctly and are wearing a gas check, try a mild primer like the CCI 200 and either 16.0 of 2400 or 20.0 of Acc 5744. No filler. Medium crimp.

Either load will fix ALL your problems.

[badgeredd]

Sorry about the shorthand, SEE is Secondary Explosive Effect (read as gun blows up for no apparent reason). It is especially likely with light double based powder loads. Normally one shouldn't load below a powder's minimum charge for that reason. I for one wouldn't like hearing a forum member got hurt because no-one mentioned the fore mention phenomena.

Edd

[geargnasher]

With certain severe reservations about his opinion on fillers, Rocky's post #19 is spot-on. This wheel has been invented thousands of times.

Gear

[Rocky Raab]

Thanks, gear. Your reservations are noted. (Isn't it great when friends can disagree and still be friends?)

[geargnasher]

Indeed. Just different experiences lead to different conclusions sometimes. Where the train derails is when obtuse individuals think their way is the only way and that their interpretations of the results of their backyard reloading experiments always produce univeral truths. Heck, even ballistic labs have trouble producing "universal truths" sometimes, otherwise all the reloading manuals would have more similar data.

Some things are likely to work better than others, though, and ten grains of Unique or sixteen grains of 2400 behind a checked 170 grain RFN sans filler is probably as close as one can get to "universal".

Gear

[runfiverun]

other things will limit the accuracy/velocity of the rifle.
skidding,deformation, that kind of stuff.

going 2400+ fps in a 30-30 is a non issue, i'd bet your best accuracy is gonna be closer to 22-2300 though.
pick a jaxketed load that gives you that velocity from the book and go with it.

[Larry Gibson]

sixteen grains of 2400 behind a checked 170 grain RFN sans filler is probably as close as one can get to "universal".

Ah, but 14.5 gr 2400 with the same 170 gr cast bullet will do the same with the dacron filler and will not be powder position sensitive nor give vertical stringing......perhaps even more "universal" in actual application.....learned that from "backyard reloading experiments" with actual testing and measuring velocities and pressures. Guess that makes me "obtuse"[smilie=s:

Larry Gibson

[Rocky Raab]

You're not obtuse, Larry (rotund, maybe, LOL!) Some internet experts are, though. They're usually the ones who read something somewhere else and don't shoot much.

[popper]

Spent part of the evening cogitating the responses here. US cleaned and inspected the cases this morning. 1 minor case neck crack - use that one for dummy rnds. No stretched cases, I'll anneal this afternoon if I get time. Did an experiment last nite, twisted bullets in half, AC vs WD and got interesting results. All sheared at the lube groove as expected. All had the little 'mountain' at last breaking point. On the AC, the mountain was off-center, almost to the outside of the CB. WD, it was closer to the middle and MUCH smaller. WD did take more torque to shear, maybe 5#. The sheared part has the fish-scale (normal) shear surface. The mountain is a granular texture. This is normal as all my experience from torque breaking homogeneous rods, usually the mountain is very small in diam. NO voids found at any of the break surface. As the exact alloy is determined by the RATE of cooling, I postulate that the core under the mountain is a weaker alloy, with a different density thus an unbalanced CB. I WD into ~60 deg water, I postulate the dropping in ice water will reduce the diam of the mountain(didn't want to use the word teat) and create a more uniform CB. I also suspect oven treating will create a more uniform CB. As pistol CB don't rotate as fast, I guess the effect would be reduced. My alloy has sulfur and arsenic in it. All but 1 broke in the lube band closest to the base, all were PB so I could get a better grip. I am going to break some commercial CB and check their results.
I mulled over Wed's targets and came to the conclusion that half my problem was recoil and my inability to handle it well on the 336 (and the crummy plastic forend stands the range uses) - lots of horizontal stringing. It's not trigger pull as I can easily put 60 in a 1" hole with my 308 AR on a bi-pod.

[Larry Gibson]

You're not obtuse, Larry (rotund, maybe, LOL!) Some internet experts are, though. They're usually the ones who read something somewhere else and don't shoot much.

Actually I was kind of "rotund" for a while but have lost 40 lbs the last year or so and am keeping it off:grin: I definately have to agree with your definition of "obtuse".

Larry Gibson

[1Shirt]

Unlike Rocky, when I feel it is a positive addition to powder placement, and with certain powders I use dac filler for rifle loads. It is not needed (IMO) for Unique and powders that are faster than Unique. It is border line for me with 2400 depending on accuracy after testing w/and without fill. For powders slower than 2400, if it fills the case at least half way to the neck, I usually use fill, but again I believe in testing with and without fill. Have had good results in both cases. I am not a believer in absolutes when it comes to different ctgs, as I think each has seperate factors associated with capacities. Regardless, and thanks to electronic scales, I weigh all loaded ctgs for consistancy when the charge of powder in less than half way to the mouth of the case. Nothing against those who are anti dac fill, that is their thing, but when it comes to reloading for different ctgs, I repeat, I don't think there are any absolutes.
1Shirt!

[runfiverun]

popper your postulations are correct.

[303Guy]

But it WORKS.I'm with Popper. I haven't read the whole thread but I'm sure no-one else would have made such a controversial suggestion as I will. Try wheat germ or wheat bran with that 25gr load. It'll protect the boolit base and raise the chamber pressure some to burn the powder more efficiently plus it will form a wad behind the boolit. Wheat germ is lighter and 'fluffy-er' and is oily to boot. It might well make that 'narrow minded' powder more 'broad minded'. I don't know but I do know that I can use a far too slow powder for charge with it and get good burn and accuracy (only tested in a rust damaged bore). If you do decide to try wheat germ, bear in mind that it compacts and stays compacted so if you don't have enough of it it could go loose and mix with the powder.

Now I better run for flak cover!:mrgreen:

[mpmarty]

Just be sure to put the filler in AFTER the powder. DAMHIK.

[geargnasher]

Dang, Marty, I'd keep that quiet:shock:

How'd it shoot?

Gear

[mpmarty]

Dang, Marty, I'd keep that quiet:shock:

How'd it shoot?

Gear

Not well. I think I needed a more powerful primer. Dacron is hard to ignite. Do they make it out of deterrent coatings?

[geargnasher]

:bigsmyl2:

Gear

[MikeS]

With all this talk about fillers, I notice everyone seems to be talking about dacron. Is there any reason not to use PSB as the filler instead of dacron? I know that when using PSB you need to add the weight of the PSB to the weight of the boolit when figuring a load, but are there any other reasons PSB couldn't be used?

[303Guy]

I like wheat germ. I do like Dacron or similar too. Wheat bran worked pretty well for me too. Trouble is lack of opportunity to go and test them all against each other. I have found that heavier polyester seems to protect the boolit base better. That's with almost doubling Larry's recommended weight which is still pretty light. So I've been looking at preserving the boolit base and preventing skid and gas erosion. I've recently discovered that different alloys can behave quite differently. I had some time ago wondered how one could measure and assess the different properties and put a name on them. Well, popper has provided some answers. There is still the impact test and the surface hardness test as well as slow yield tests and maybe even bending tests.

I've had a boolit twist where it expanded into the gap between case mouth and chamber end. There's skid in front of the twist.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-524F-1.jpg

See the twist? The thrust face is in line while the trailing face is not.

[popper]

I learned, I think, that I need to polish my mould so it drops immediately, no tapping etc. to get GOOD CBs. Else spend the time to oven HT, either soft or hard. Dropping on a damp towel also changes the cooling rate on one side, sprue cutting also has an effect. I was WD in about 4" water which I don't think is deep or cold enough, for rifle. 303Guy, thanks to your pics on CB bases, I think the Lever vs 4895 shows my PB were damaged less by the finer powder. As L Gibson pointed out, it has a slower pressure curve which may help also. Hey, it's my sandbox, I'm still playing. Got to get my gyro simulator out and see how much effect the off-line CG effect is, twist some commercial and PB CBs to see how they are. Later.