My wheel weight composition isn't what I've seen published!

[Flintlock Hokie]

I read the excellent post about different types of wheel weights (zinc, lead, steel) by Junker. I also read the chapter on alloys by Fryxell and Applegate in From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners. It's all interesting reading. However...

BEFORE I read the above articles I made four batches of ingots from wheel weights, a mixture of clip-ons and flat, but mostly clip-ons. The last batch misbehaved badly, developing a very thick layer of foamy gray stuff which I scooped off. After reading the above articles, I figured maybe the foamy stuff was from zinc. Zinc melts at 787 F, considerably hotter than lead, but it will melt in your lead pot. Today I got my answer definitively but discovered something else that was surprising.

At our company's metallurgical lab we have a portable X-ray fluorescence machine used to analyze metals. It will measure 21 different metals commonly found in alloys. I had my WW ingots analyzed. Sure enough, my troublesome batch had 1.1% zinc!

The surprise is that the other batches, measured only 0.5-0.6% antimony! Only one sample had any tin, about 0.2%! The balance of all the samples was lead. So here's the surprise. The Fryxell and Applegate article says WW lead is 95/3/0.3 lead/antimony/tin! So where is all the antimony and tin I expected to find in my WW metal? I read somewhere that flat adhesive weights are pure lead. BUT I only used a very few of them in my mixes.

My guess is that WW ain't what it used to be. Now I'm really curious. Please don't tell me that they separated out. I fluxed the pot several times for each batch and I didn't scoop off much "stuff" other than steel clips (except for the batch with zinc).

[geargnasher]

Nope, wheel weights ain't what they used to be. I expect 2-3% antimony and less than a half percent tin.

You're mistaken about the Fryxell/Applegate statements, what you quote is Lyman #2 alloy, wheel weights never did have that much tin in them, even when the antimony percentage was 7 or more.

I'm interested in what you fluxed with for one thing, and if the Xray machine can test for calcium content. I know you said the balance was lead, but I also figure you weren't looking for anything other than lead/antimony/tin/zinc either. I've heard an unsubstantiated rumor that one of the WW manufacturers started using high amounts of calcium to harden the scrap alloy they were using instead of having to buy and alloy-in expensive antimony. Might be the case with your stuff, might be hogwash, but it would be handy to know more about what's in what you have. It's hard to make a durable clip-on wheel weight out of something that's 6 bhn, which is what you have with the unzinced batches.

Wheel weights, especially nowdays, are whatever the manufacturer can get cheap and will still pour into shape, so you can't count on anything. Access to an assaying device is invaluble.

Gear

[white eagle]

so would it be safe to assume that the chase for the elusive ww
is unnecessary
ahh the old gray mare she aint what she used to be

[quilbilly]

Having been casting bendable fishing jigs from wheel weights for sale over the last 30 years, I came to distrust WW composition many years ago. That is why I do my own alloys. I have had some batches of wheel weights that were barely worth casting into sinkers.

[Flintlock Hokie]

I caught my error in the reported composition of WW lead from the Fryxell and Applegate article, but obviously I wasn't quick enough with the correction.

Anyway, the X-ray fluorescence machine reports the following metals: Sb, Sn, Pd, Ag, Al, Mo, Nb, Zr, Bi, Pb, Se, W, Zn, Cu, Ni, Co, Fe, Mn, Cr, V and Ti. None but lead, antimony, tin and zinc showed up in my samples (zinc in only one). The average lead content was 98.4% for the three samples without the zinc. The lead error, however, is about 0.7%, so the lead content could be somewhat higher or lower. The antimony content was 0.57% with an error of 0.13. The only sample that showed tin had 0.23% (error 0.11).

I wouldn't believe the numbers to the last digit, but they certainly aren't off by 5 or 6X.

I fluxed with a chunk of candle wax. Being my first time, I wasn't sure what to expect. Fryxell and Applegate recommend saw dust. I'm going to try that next time. Since I dip to cast, I'll just have to scoop it off before casting. I've also ordered a thermometer to get some control over pot temperature. I'm going to try to clean up the ingots with the zinc in them.

[Flintlock Hokie]

So where does one get antimony or tin?

[geargnasher]

click on the Rotometals link on the banner ad at the top of the page and investigate the "superhard" boolit alloy, as well as linotype alloy. Linotype can be added to give you approximate expected wheel weight composition with a touch more tin (very good general alloy) and will blend with your wheel weight metal more easily than the Superhard. Use lots of sawdust and stir with a wood stick to get all the alloys blended in a reducing enviroment. Sawdust helps remove any calcium trace which will bond with antimony and make an "oatmeal" crust similar to zinc. Any antimony/calcium intermetallic will be broken down by exposure to sawdust, and the antimony will melt in better. Consider any skimmed sawdust ash/dross toxic waste in case it contains calcium, keep it dry and don't breathe any of the dust.

There's a great article on the LASC site on alloying with Superhard, and also a comprehensive article on boolit alloys by Fryxell.

Gear

[HangFireW8]

So where is all the antimony and tin I expected to find in my WW metal?

That's an easy question to answer. If your initial WW melt was hot enough to melt Zinc, it was hot enough to oxidize the antimony, which was then removed as ash or dross.

I keep my smelting runs below 600F, I can skim off the Zincers and I keep all my good alloying elements intact.

It is also possible that your portable testing system is not properly calibrated, or has trouble with discerning certain alloys.

HF

[runfiverun]

all that grey foamy is where your antimony went.
there is a big difference between the clip on's and stick on ww's.
zinc is silvery oatmeal, antimony manifests itself as that grey foamy stuff.
and when you flux it properly you get a black dirt which will have little silver globs of alloy in it.
you threw away the wrong stuff.
a zink content of 1% is not gonna do anything but make the alloy a bit harder.

[ku4hx]

Wheel weight composition is like diver's weights ... sometimes exactly like diver's weights: it varies from batch to batch and from maker to maker. There is no standard for WW alloy and there need not be. You do need to know the weight of individual units in a lot but that's not rocket science; throw a test weight, weigh it and set the label for that batch: 1oz, 1.25 oz and etc.. Basically it's financial in nature: what a maker can buy at the lowest cost to make a product that satisfies their need.

That's why I re-engineered myself decades ago not to obsess over specific alloy composition. I can always get a good clean melt and the exact percentages are just not important to me. As long as the boolit's weights are something I can deal with (they always are) and field test results satisfy my more anal retentive self, I declare success and start casting in bulk.

[runfiverun]

guns don't get too freaked out about a 1-2 bhn change.
last winter i pulled all my ww ingots out from under the bench,and run them all through the smelters again.
back and front, top and bottom, adding ingots and filling one pot to the other as i pulled from the pots.
making basically as close as i could get to one big 1500 lb batch of alloy.
i also put down all the rows and built up mixing them even further.
did it help?
dunno.
but it didn't hurt, and i cleaned up a bunch of oxidized stuff that i have had for well over 15 years.

[44man]

I have said for years that none of us has the same metal in WW's.
My last bucket had a lot of stick on's so I sorted them out. I figured I could get a little pure lead but I found about half were zinc. I tossed it all.
I noticed it needed a lot more heat to melt them, unlike the low smelting temps I use for clip on. The baked on paint makes it hard to tell what you have.
The best thing is to toss out the stick on stuff.

[mold maker]

The stick on weights are easy to seperate lead from zinc. Just pinch them with pliers. The zinc are almost impossible to mark while the lead are easy. Most of the vinc are marked (Zn) and a magnet will pull all the Fe out.
Unless you have deep pockets, don't toss any lead. It's soon gonna be expensive if you can find it.
As stated above, Lead WWs are like dinasours. They will soon be extenct. Mfg that still produce them are in a change over mode, and will use only what lead they have already contracted for. Even zinc is going to be lost in the shuffel, as it is priced right along with lead. Since Fe is a much less expensive metal and the ability to cast with the clip is now common, it will soon be the norm.

[44man]

Pure doesn't bother me much, I must have a ton of ingots and only use it for ML's or with tin for BPCR that I can't afford to shoot anymore anyway.
My whole amount of shooting has been reduced a lot.
I had to fill the gas cans for the mower and fill my 4 Runner today---WOW! :veryconfu
To search for a few pounds of pure stick on weights out of the zinc will just take away from a nap! :bigsmyl2:

[geargnasher]

I've seen a lot of stick-on weights that were painted, but were of a hard, lead alloy. Harder than clip-ons, actually. I check them with cutters and toss them in with the clippies. Very few soft tape stickies around anymore.

Gear

[Lizard333]

I've seen a lot of stick-on weights that were painted, but were of a hard, lead alloy. Harder than clip-ons, actually. I check them with cutters and toss them in with the clippies. Very few soft tape stickies around anymore.

Gear

Same around here. I find the farthur I get away from the communist nation of California, the better the WW's get. I travel to three different states to get my WW's, with the stick on that are painted here in Flag, are harder than the ones I get in Colorado and New Mexico. It doesn't hurt to travel and use the companies gas to get them either:-?

[The Ranger]

i work in a GM shop and have noticed for the last few years all the ww used at the factory are marked with "Fe", an iron composition i suppose.

all my sticky wieghts go in a seperate bucket and when i got enough, i smelt some pure lead.

[mpmarty]

Smelted two five gallon buckets of clip on weights yesterday. Smelting pardner wanted to smelt the stick ons but I told him "wait for a windy day". That burning rubber sticky stuff is nasty. Most all of my stick ons are soft lead just like the X-ray lead I get from the dentist.

[Flintlock Hokie]

"all that grey foamy is where your antimony went."

All four of my batches measured very close to 0.7% antimony. Only one batch had zinc (1.1%). So I don't think the antimony went with the zinc. Neither do I think the X-ray machine was improperly calibrated. The analysis totaled 99% for all four samples. It does have trouble with light elements (e.g. Al) and that can skew the other results. However, it didn't report even a trace of any light elements.

"I keep my smelting runs below 600F, ..."

Lead melts at 621 F. Did you mean 700 F?

I've ordered a thermometer and will definitely keep my pot WAY below zinc's 787 F melting point.

[MT Gianni]

Flintlock, while pure lead melts @ 621F alloyed lead melts at lower temps 50-50 might even be around 470F. It is another of it's weirder properties.

[HangFireW8]

Lead melts at 621 F. Did you mean 700 F?

I've ordered a thermometer and will definitely keep my pot WAY below zinc's 787 F melting point.

Pure lead melts at 621. Everything I've smelted melts by 600.

[TinCan Assassin]

@Lizard333, Save some for me, bro. I don't live too far away from you. I wind up berm mining alot.

[Flintlock Hokie]

Thanks, MT Gianni. I'm really curious to see what temperatures I've been reaching in my pot.

[blikseme300]

Being a relative newbie of 25+ years to cast boolits I pay attention to the possibility of melting Zinc and so contaminating the melt. I currently use a PID controlled melter to render the WW's to ingots. Temperature is set to 650* and all the steel and Zinc bits float on the melt and are easy to scoop off. Fluxing is always done with sawdust to preserve all desired elements.

I have also found that "modern" straight WW's are not quite suited for casting. I blend these with soft lead, tin and antimony. The easiest way, IMHO, is to use linotype or monotype alloy to create the proper blend.

The anti Pb WW Nazi's are not making it easy for us cast boolit reloaders. Unless you are prepared to play around with what you can scrounge then I suggest you purchase the virgin alloys from RotoMetals or other supplier.:groner:

My 2c rant.

Bliksem

[Gohon]

I agree that you most likely threw away the antimony and maybe a little of the tin thinking it was zinc. You may very well have gotten a little zinc mixed in but not enough to really matter. If you just ordered a thermometer then you really can't be sure what the temperature of you smelt was can you. If you still have all that dross you skimmed out you might re-smelt it and see what happens.......