Fluxing Question

[Bigscot]

When smelting w/w I usually melt them down, skim off all trash and pour into moulds. I flux when I melt the ingots down for casting. My question is, should I be fluxing all the way? I have not seen any problems with the boolits I make and shoot fine. Is there any advantage to fluxing all the way and if there is what is the best fluxing agent? I generally use candle wax or parifin.

Thanks,

Bigscot

[OLPDon]

Bigscot:
In a one word answer: Flux
Don

Also do a search on Flux there is tons of ways to do it and what to use. Also there are ways to keep the oxidation down.

[VTDW]

Bigscot,

I do just as you describe above. Once I flux and am ready to pour ingots I skim really well. Once I flux to pour boolits I skim and then use a paint stick to scrape the sides of my Lee pot and then leave that residue on top of the melt until I replenish as it gets low in the pot, then I do it over again. I find that fluxing and scraping the sides/bottom of the pot with the paint stick works well for me in keeping the Lee from dripping. AND I mix like crazy when I flux!!!

Dave

[44woody]

BigScot you can flux with the following beeswax, candle wax,used motor oil pine tree sap a paint stick these are just a few of the things I have used I like to use bees wax and when it quits burning I leave it on top of the lead to prevent oxidation and that works real good in keeping my tin in the mix :castmine: 44Woody

[Ohio Rusty]

I also scrape the bottom and the sides of the pot. I know that the dirt is supposed to float to the top. Often the heavy weight of the lead and the thick viscosity wants to pin the dirt to the bottom like Hulk Hogan on a pencil neck wrestler. I find that vigorous stirring, and often, helps release the dirt and get it moving thru the molten metal to the top. I ve had what I thought was perfectly clean metal, only to stir and a big 'puff' of dirt shows up on the top from somewhere below. I also like to empty my lead pot completely at the end of a few casting sessions and really clean the walls and bottom of the dirt barnacles that get stuck to the walls.
Ohio Rusty

[454PB]

I do as you describe.....no flux while smelting. Usually there is enough grease and crud in carbon form to do the fluxing without adding anything else. Ever see a molten pot of wheelweights that wasn't smoking?

[klw]

I don't think I've flux anything in maybe 15 years. A very long time ago I set out to see if fluxing mattered. I picked several single cavity moulds that were very good at casting bullets of uniform weight. With each I cast for two hours, saved the bullets in their as cast order, noted where I fluxed and then weighed and visually inspected all the bullets. With out exception I got weight variation and visual rejects where I fluxed. Repeat the same study without fluxing and these variations went away.

Recently I bought maybe 1500 pounds of stuff from a very old print shop. It was advertised as that and that is what it was. Melted it up into ingots. Maybe 10% crude by weight. But I never fluxed this stuff. Not when making ingots and not when using it.

I see no proof that fluxing helps.

But I'd love to see someone design an experiment that could prove that it might and then do that experiment several time and see what happens.

[felix]

Kenneth, fluxing only matters when you have a mix of stuff which is unknown from various sources in one pot. Alloys that have been aged typically have had their foreign materials already removed. ... felix

[Sundogg1911]

I usually flux more when smelting into ingots. the cleaner the ingots the less crap in the pot that you cast from. I use sawdust in the dutch oven pot that I smelt in. it doesnt stink up the neighborhood, although if you're smelting WW's you already got the stink ;-)

[randyrat]

I also use sawdust smelting ingots and a little wax in my Lee pot. Don't worry you will cook off the tin and other stuff if your temp is high enough. Keep your temp down and you may very well get by without fluxing.

[Ohio Rusty]

I may be wrong in my thinking, but I have always been under the impression the reason for fluxing was not to remove impurities, but to bond 2 or more different metals together. When we use a solder gun or sweat pipes, we flux to get the tin or lead solder to stick to and bond to the copper. Thus when we flux in a pot, I assume we do that to get the tin, and antimony to bond with the lead so it doesn't separate and get skimmed off. It is that premise when I do muzzleloading bullets and want pure lead, I never flux as I want any or all harder metals to be skimmed off, leaving only the softest lead I can cast with to get the maximum expansion from a slow moving round ball. When I start to smelt these WW's I've been collecting, I will flux often to keep the hardness in the lead pot.
Ohio Rusty

[NVcurmudgeon]

[QUOTE=klw;167267]

I see no proof that fluxing helps.

klw, If you meant that fluxing doesn't help if one uses a bottom-pour pot, I tend to agree with you. But what about us ladle guys? The other day I cast 334 boolits from a two cavity mould; 267 appearing to be match grade but not weighted yet, 60 plinkers, and 7 rejects. Two of the rejects had dross inclusions. I flux and skim whenever I add metal, usually between 15-25 casts. I try to rake any floating dross out of the way when filling the ladle for each cast.

I was on a roll yesterday, as witness the 98% keepers, but was interrupted twice. First when Mrs. c wanted to talk, then again when a mould handle broke, otherwise I might have made a year's supply of my favorite 314299 boolit in one session!

[MT Gianni]

When we sweat copper, we flux to remove any impurities between the joined materiels. It is possible to solder without fluxing but you must combine 2 ellements, lucky and good. To extend that thought I believe that fluxing helps to seperate any impurities and release them from the metals. Fluxing while soldering does not seperate bonded metals such as lead-tin or tin-antimony-silver etc. 50-50 is still 50-50 after the joint is fluxed so I don't believe that fluxing seperates alloyed metals just non alloyed impurities. I will continue to do it when smelting, [I can't use render without thinking of hog fat], but don't feel it's necessary when casting with clean ingots. Gianni.

[klw]

[QUOTE=NVcurmudgeon;167553][QUOTE=klw;167267]

I see no proof that fluxing helps.

klw, If you meant that fluxing doesn't help if one uses a bottom-pour pot, I tend to agree with you. But what about us ladle guys? QUOTE]

You might well be right about that. Don't think I've used a ladle in 25 years.

[Bullshop]

Gianni
Funny, I use renderd moose tallow for outside fluxing. I found it lets me work faster than no flux. It makes the clips very slick and breaks the bond between steel and lead partickles and allows me to skim the clips much sooner without loosing lead that would otherwise stick and be lost.
If time is not a concern then its not neaded as when the clips come up to a higher temp they will come out clean. The tallow flux just allows the same job done in less time. Try it next time you get a deer or elk.
bic/bs

[Bullshop]

As for fluxing the casting pot I use a bottom pour and flux twice per pot full.
I like to flux each time the pot gets filled and comes up to temp. Then again when its emptied to the point of refilling. Fluxing in a nearly empty pot (about 30% cap.) alows a more vigerous stiring and view of the sides. This goes a long ways in helping keep the pot clean.
bic/bs

[Sundogg1911]

Ohio Rusty,
I believe that fluxing does both help mix the alloy and combine all ingredients, and also clean out impuritys which will form as dross on the top of the pot.
When I started working (at the same company that I'm still at) in 1984, I ran a flowsolder machine which is a giant solder pot that flows as printed circuit board pass over it on a track, to solder all of the components at one time. I had to take a class on it and that what I learned was the reason for fluxing. We used a flux that was very similar to Marvalux. Since we had goverment contracts we would have spot inspections where a sample ot our solder was tested for impuritys. (We always passed)

[3sixbits]

FLUXING = REFINING. This is really what we do when we flux are metal and the reason we do this is to remove the dirt, tramp metal. The resulting float that we skim off the top of the melt is called dross. Dross is composed of oxides of metal that would take a blast furnace to bring back to a usable form. Dross also includes the dirt that we had on our metal before we started the refining process. By temperature control and fluxing we can remove tramp metals such as copper and zinc, if we use saw dust and control the temperature properly. Of course zinc in unalloyed form can be removed if the temperature is kept below 787 degs, well above the melting temp of lead and tin. Antimony in lead, even though it's melting temperature is around 1100 deg. Combining metals is known as alloying and is a different subject than refining. Eutectic alloys are a whole discussion unto themselves, but needs to be understood if you want to understand why antimony and tin when combined with lead do not separate when we change the state of the metal from a solid to a liquid. Why the temperature that antimoney goes into solution at a lower temp when combined with these other metals. For a further discussion on this subject I would refer you to the text of "METALLURGY" By CARL G. JOHNSON and WILLIAM R. WEEKS, Revised BY John G. Anderson P.E.

[montana_charlie]

When we use a solder gun or sweat pipes, we flux to get the tin or lead solder to stick to and bond to the copper.

When we sweat copper, we flux to remove any impurities between the joined materiels.
Soldering, brazing, or welding - flux has the same purpose...it (removes and) prevents oxidation of the metals being joined so they can actually bond.
When you switch to MIG welding you dump the flux, but you replace it with an inert gas that excludes oxygen and...(guess what)...prevents oxidation.

Fluxing a pot of lead alloy (as I understand it) is for the purpose of 'removing' oxidation...so to speak. The act allows the oxidized metal forming a 'scum' on the surface to return to it's original composition...and be recombined with the rest of the alloy.

When I first started casting, it was round balls (of pure lead) for ML rifles. Having done some reading, I dutifully skimmed and fluxed.
First, I would skim off the 'crud', then flux with that wax pea...and be temporarily rewarded with a mirror-like lead surface...which immediately started to haze over.

Because I had no idea of the 'mechanics', I was just wasting lead and beeswax.

The scum I skimmed was oxidized lead (because there was nothing else in the pot)...which got thrown away.
And, the wax could not 'de-oxidize' scum which had already been skimmed, to transform it back into usable lead.
But, since there was no precious tin to 'saved', all I did was short myself of a few bullets out of every potful.

I don't think it hurts a thing to flux when breaking down a load of raw wheel weights...but I doubt that it helps for the 'cleaning'.
After all, trash is either gonna float or burn.
If the weights have that dull grey color, that is oxidation which will also come to the surface. If you wish to keep it, flux will be necessary to de-oxidize it.
But, once the alloy is cleaned of 'trash', I think a good fluxing is proper to prepare for pouring the finished ingots.

While actually casting bullets with an alloy (not straight lead) I think fluxing is important for keeping the mixture 'accurate' (since tin is oxidized more quickly than lead). I feel it gets more important in alloys where the tin percentage is quite low.
So, when making bullets, fluxing is to re-combine the 'scum' with the alloy...because the 'scum' is actually metal which is supposed to be in there.

As I see it...
CM

[DLCTEX]

Bullshop, do you render the tallow before using it for flux? It seems to me it would be self rendering as a flux, but would need to be frozen to keep until use. Just thinking about all the deer tallow we wasted this past season. I probably ought to render some to use in a boolit lube for BP. Dale

[TAWILDCATT]

fluxing helps to put the tin back in the mix as it is part of the slag.I alwas melt my ww in iron pot over plumbers burner.flux it and pour into muffin pans(cast iron muffin pans in antque shop also sold in hardware store)keeping elec pot clean helps with drip.:Fire: :coffee:

[Bullshop]

dale
Yes I render it first because it keeps better. I pour it into 5 gallon buckets and just keep it in my garage. When I just keep the fat in a bucket it gets moldy but the renderd stuff wont. Might not make any differance at all though. The renderd stuff spreads over the surface of the melt more quickly.
bic/bs

[Forester]

I flux when smelting and when I refill my bottom pour pot. When smelting I use the old corn cob cleaning media from my brass tumblers. When I am casting I use a little bit of the Frankford Arsenal fluxing powder because I have a ton of it and it works well for me. When it is gone, I will probably use something else and not buy it again though.

My next setup is going to be a "clean pot" and "dirty pot". Like others have done I am going to mount one bottom pour over top of another and only have clean, fluxed alloy from the bottom of the pot in my casting pot. Should speed up the wait when the pot gets low on alloy.

[Ohio Rusty]

Will dry coffee grounds work for flux as well as sawdust ???? I get a handfull of coffee grounds every morning. I usually recycle theim into the yard, but if it willl make a good fluxing media, I'll dry some and hang on to a couple of handfuls.
Any opinions on coffee grounds? Do you think my bullets will fly faster due to the caffeine ??
Ohio Rusty

[joeb33050]

I don't think I've flux anything in maybe 15 years. A very long time ago I set out to see if fluxing mattered. I picked several single cavity moulds that were very good at casting bullets of uniform weight. With each I cast for two hours, saved the bullets in their as cast order, noted where I fluxed and then weighed and visually inspected all the bullets. With out exception I got weight variation and visual rejects where I fluxed. Repeat the same study without fluxing and these variations went away.

Recently I bought maybe 1500 pounds of stuff from a very old print shop. It was advertised as that and that is what it was. Melted it up into ingots. Maybe 10% crude by weight. But I never fluxed this stuff. Not when making ingots and not when using it.

I see no proof that fluxing helps.

But I'd love to see someone design an experiment that could prove that it might and then do that experiment several time and see what happens.

I don't flux while casting, scoop up the slushy stuff and dirt and put it in a tin can. I cast for ?30 years in the cellar and never fluxed. Melted WW etc. outside, and fluxed. When melting down stuff the first time-roofing lead for example-I flux.
I put the hardened slushy stuff in the pot every now and then, let it melt and get hot enough to ignite the flux = old pan lube, and I end up with black powder stuff that I put back in the tin can and then throw out. I think that the black powder stuff is metal oxides because it is very dense.
I always get some slushy stuff, no matter how much I clean the pot or melt and flux the alloy, but not a lot-maybe a lyman dipper 1/2 full in a casting session.
I empty the Lee 20# pot frequently and steel wool the inside, a lo0t of stuff comes off. Powder stuff. ? I think cleaning between casting sessions helps.
joe brennan

[Lloyd Smale]

I melt my wws in a seperate pot usually in 100 lb batches. When the wheelweight just get to the point where the top ones melt I stir the heck out of the pot and scrape it as i do it. I then skim and throw all the junk on top out. If you catch it just as the top ones melt you pretty much dont have to worry about zinc as they dont have a chance to get hot enough to melt. I dont worry a bit about the little bit of tin oxide that i may be throwing away when i skim. Once the top is skimed i flux the mix good one time. after that i add 2 percent tin whether im going to use it as is or alloy it. Then i flux once more and pour it into ingots. I very rarely ever flux again in my casting pot. I found in testing bullet weights that fluxing to much caused more variations in weight and rejected bullets then not fluxing at all. Plus the residue from about anything you flux with will eventually put a hard coating on your pot that your going to have to clean.

[montana_charlie]

I always get some slushy stuff, no matter how much I clean the pot or melt and flux the alloy,
Me too, Joe. But that slushy stuff is the oxidation from your metals.
Gather it into a glob, and use a well-charred wooden stick to 'smear' it downward against the side of the pot until it disappears...leaving a small bit of ash on top.

The carbon in the stick has de-oxidized the slush, allowing it to return to the alloy.
Try it...
CM

[AlaskaMike]

Will dry coffee grounds work for flux as well as sawdust ???? I get a handfull of coffee grounds every morning. I usually recycle theim into the yard, but if it willl make a good fluxing media, I'll dry some and hang on to a couple of handfuls.
Any opinions on coffee grounds? Do you think my bullets will fly faster due to the caffeine ??
Ohio Rusty

Rusty, that's something I hadn't thought of. Give it a try and see how the coffee grounds work! I think part of the reason sawdust works as well as it does is because of its granularity--that makes for lots of surface area, and dried, used coffee grounds ought to work about the same I would think.

Mike

[3sixbits]

Just for giggles I looked up the way a foundry separates tin from lead. I now know that you are not going to get it to separate in your casting pot at home. Regardless of what you think you know about fluxing to put the tin back in your melt, it just ain't so! If I did not worry about a copyright infringement I would scan this text book. Once you read the information you will be forever rid of the idea that tin is separating or salting out of your alloy and that fluxing will make it go back into solution." CAUSE IT JUST AIN"T SO"!............Period!

[waksupi]

The only separation I know of that you can get, is the film on top of the melt. I am under the impression, that this is the tin oxidizing, being easier to oxide in a short period, than lead.

[leftiye]

Yeah, And there's no doubt something separates out (huh?). If it ain't tin like everyone's said since Metheusalah was in diapers, I guess the whole casting world was wrong. I suspect it isn't pure tin, probably a mix of a bunch of oxides. BUT there' only lead, tin, and antimony in there.

[3sixbits]

How did the tin get in the WW? In another published source from the lead industry, The statement is as follows, "Wheels weights has no significant quantity of tin". Time after time when I see analysis of WW's not once have I seen any with more than a trace amount containing TIN. When you are talking about antimony and lead you are talking (unknowingly) about a type II eutectic alloy. MEANING= "these two metals are entirely soluble in each other when in the liquid state" In the solid state they separate. What this means is that the solution of lead and antimony separate as the metal cools to the solid state. All oxides that form on the surface can not be recombined with out the removal of the oxides and placing them in a blast furnace. Got a blast furnace handy at your house?

[leftiye]

Who said anything about wheel weights? How about I added the tin? A lot of people add tin to their alloys as a standard practice. We were talking about hot metal in a casting pot, and the oxide that separates out while we are casting, and fluxing to mix it back in. Nor did anybody say anything about letting the metal cool, and therefore form oxides from antimony that had separated from the lead. No one yet has suggested that antimony is being lost, though it well may be.

Regardless, why did the printing industry for so many decades add "refresher metal" to their linotype if the tin, and antimony were not being lost? Also, and more to the point, why did they flux their alloys (other than it doesn't cast worth a f@*t if you don't)? And if the oxides are irrevocably lost at the point in time that they are formed, why does fluxing work?

As I said before, there's certainly something forming on the top of every pot of molten lead, and there's only three things it can be- oxides of lead or tin, or antimony. There are possibly other impurities, but either they won't separate out or they are in such small percentages that they won't form discernable amounts of oxides. It's not just boolit casters that flux molten lead, it's been being done by everyone who cast anything from lead since Metheusalah was in diapers. I can't see how they all could have been so mistaken.

Your comment about the blast furnace brings out another suggestion, I've found that a mapp gas torch will recombine a lot of that stuff that floats on the surface of the lead.

[montana_charlie]

3sixbits,
Do foundries flux? If so, why?
CM

[VTDW]

I may be wrong in my thinking, but I have always been under the impression the reason for fluxing was not to remove impurities, but to bond 2 or more different metals together. When we use a solder gun or sweat pipes, we flux to get the tin or lead solder to stick to and bond to the copper. Thus when we flux in a pot, I assume we do that to get the tin, and antimony to bond with the lead so it doesn't separate and get skimmed off. It is that premise when I do muzzleloading bullets and want pure lead, I never flux as I want any or all harder metals to be skimmed off, leaving only the softest lead I can cast with to get the maximum expansion from a slow moving round ball. When I start to smelt these WW's I've been collecting, I will flux often to keep the hardness in the lead pot.
Ohio Rusty

Rusty,

We may be on the same page but flux is the material/s that help keep the atmosphere from interacting with the base metal i.e. using shielding gas when welding with bare wire (some welding wire has the flux inside the wore as a core) and the coating/flux on welding rods. Brazing uses flux for the same purpose, it keeps the base metal (via the fluxing agent) free from the atmosphere by creating the atmosphere needed to perform the brazing/welding procedure. Fluxing has nothing to do with coalescence of metals. You do know that it works but not exactly as you have thought.

Dave

[Bigscot]

The coating on welding and brazing rods also clean impurities out of the molten metal during the brazing/welding process as well as shield the molten metal from O2.

Bigscot

[VTDW]

The coating on welding and brazing rods also clean impurities out of the molten metal during the brazing/welding process as well as shield the molten metal from O2.

Bigscot

True!!! It is easy to misunderstand the written word and what the writer implies. Someone above mentioned that fluxing allows the tin to coalese or mix back into the lead. I submit, but do not know for sure that the fluxing and stiring takes out the impurities and the impurities float to the top of the mix. When the impurities are gone the metals can coalesce once again.

This stuff makes my head hurt.

Dave

[3sixbits]

3sixbits,
Do foundries flux? If so, why?
CM

To condition the metal, this is the primary reason for fluxing in the foundry and every where else for that matter. Primarily they use sawdust. They also use sodium hydroxide to further clean or to remove metal such as copper. Other fluxes are used to combine other metals to the base metal depending on the application of the final product. The oxides that form on the metal are the result of the exposure to ambient conditions. After our metal is cleaned a protective cover needs to be applied to halt further oxidation (I use powdered charcoal). You or anyone can use what ever works for you.

[3sixbits]

Who said anything about wheel weights? How about I added the tin? A lot of people add tin to their alloys as a standard practice. We were talking about hot metal in a casting pot, and the oxide that separates out while we are casting, and fluxing to mix it back in. Nor did anybody say anything about letting the metal cool, and therefore form oxides from antimony that had separated from the lead. No one yet has suggested that antimony is being lost, though it well may be.

Regardless, why did the printing industry for so many decades add "refresher metal" to their linotype if the tin, and antimony were not being lost? Also, and more to the point, why did they flux their alloys (other than it doesn't cast worth a f@*t if you don't)? And if the oxides are irrevocably lost at the point in time that they are formed, why does fluxing work?

As I said before, there's certainly something forming on the top of every pot of molten lead, and there's only three things it can be- oxides of lead or tin, or antimony. There are possibly other impurities, but either they won't separate out or they are in such small percentages that they won't form discernable amounts of oxides. It's not just boolit casters that flux molten lead, it's been being done by everyone who cast anything from lead since Metheusalah was in diapers. I can't see how they all could have been so mistaken.

Your comment about the blast furnace brings out another suggestion, I've found that a mapp gas torch will recombine a lot of that stuff that floats on the surface of the lead.

There are so many points you raise that is difficult to answer them all in one reply. But let me address the easiest first, when we raise the temp of our alloy the faster oxidation takes place the longer we keep the metal at the elevated temp the more oxidation will take place, unless we slow the process of the oxidation it will continue and we loose more metal that has oxadised that we can not recombine to our alloy, only remove the oxides. Fluxing does not make the oxides recombine, it can only free them so we can remove them.

[3sixbits]

True!!! It is easy to misunderstand the written word and what the writer implies. Someone above mentioned that fluxing allows the tin to coalesce or mix back into the lead. I submit, but do not know for sure that the fluxing and stiring takes out the impurities and the impurities float to the top of the mix. When the impurities are gone the metals can coalesce once again.

This stuff makes my head hurt.

Dave

"This stuff makes my head hurt."(it's the fumes from the lead) You are correct in everything you have written above. The oxides are the inhabition to casting our metal, this is why they must be removed. This is the main reason it works better for us to keep the temp down as much as posible to slow the oxides that are forming all the time we are working the metal.

[3sixbits]

Leftiye: "Who said anything about wheel weights?" Did you read the first post?

[montana_charlie]

To condition the metal, this is the primary reason for fluxing in the foundry and every where else for that matter.
I know how to use exercise to 'condition' an athlete's body for strenuous activity.
I understand how a hair product can 'condition' a lady's hair to be combed without tangles.
I can even 'condition' a financial agreement by stating which events would nullify it.

These are understandable uses of the verb '(to) condition' because the desired result of the conditioning is known.

To say that "the reason for fluxing (primarily with sawdust) is to 'condition' the metal" is as unintelligible as saying "manure is conditioned by the addition of water".
Since there is no indication of what use the manure is going to be applied to, how the extra water makes it's condition more useful, or why water is a better choice than (say) oil, there is no apparent context for the word 'conditioned'.

Perhaps you would be good enough to define 'condition', as it pertains to metal in an alloy...

Other fluxes are used to combine other metals to the base metal depending on the application of the final product.
These 'other metals' in the alloy don't require 'conditioning'?
In their case the 'other' fluxes are only used to cause them to 'combine' with the base metal?
Is only the base metal that requires 'conditioning'?

The oxides that form on the metal are the result of the exposure to ambient conditions.
Just to see if we are on the same page...would you describe these oxides (when present in a a lead/tin alloy) as the 'scum' which initially clouds the surface...and eventually presents as a thin layer of dull grey matter which can be removed with a spoon, has a weight similar to lead, and will cool into a grainy solid that resembles pot metal?

CM

[Ken O]

I retired from the building trades and worked in steel mills and BOPs. The BOPs made the alloys, I don't pretend to know the process, but about the fourth floor up or so was the "fluxing deck". There were conveyor belts taking lime to dump into the pots, so I take it they used lime to flux.
There is probably someone one here that works a BOP and could fill us in on the fluxing.

[VTDW]

This is fun!!:drinks:

"To say that "the reason for fluxing (primarily with sawdust) is to 'condition' the metal" is as unintelligible as saying "manure is conditioned by the addition of water".
Since there is no indication of what use the manure is going to be applied to, how the extra water makes it's condition more useful, or why water is a better choice than (say) oil, there is no apparent context for the word 'conditioned'.

Perhaps you would be good enough to define 'condition', as it pertains to metal in an alloy..."

To my limited understanding, by just fluxing the base metal you are actually conditioning it. When we braze weld we condition the base metal by fluxing it before we braze. When you condition the metal it is conditioned and the oxidation is slowed tremendously. I may be entirely wrong and if so, my apology.

Manure can be conditioned by adding water. Add a bit of lime also and it is a good product to spray on soil. Without the lime it is just not as good a product.


Dave

[MT Gianni]

Totally off topic, In 1978 the US government OSHA division sent every one in my county a notice that adding water to manure could make it slippery. One of our main industries was dairy farms and most people knew this by the age of 3, but at a reported cost of $278,000.00 I feel it is important enough to relay to the rest of you. Gianni
P.S. wet cow manure would be a poor flux and down right hazardous around a lead pot. back on topic.

[hydraulic]

After rendering the deer tallow last fall (bullet lube = 1/2 tallow, 1/2 beeswax) I saved the cracklings and kept them in a coffee can for fluxing. After a casting season on the basement walk-in last month I forgot and left my flux outside. A stray cat ate it.

[Ricochet]

Thanks for that, Gianni! Now I know my tax dollars are being spent wisely. :lol:

[buck1]

I have some foundry type. When I melt it I get a slush on top, and a liquid on bottom. Then I flux it with sawdust and bees wax and its all liquid. mixing alone wont blend it.
So I flux everything. Something is happening that makes my melt more even ,I cant say what/why. FWIW.........Buck

[leftiye]

3sixbits,

Okay, I've still got problems with this great and inspiring revelation. Why is it that the carbon from whatever source used in fluxing is unable to remove the oxygen from the lead, tin, and antimony oxides and thus restore it to the status of pure metal (and recombine it into the melt)? Chemically all that is necessary to do this is something more "active" chemically than the lead, tin, and antimony. If carbon can't do it then how about sodium (you mentioned sodium hydroxide- I'm a little leery of hot Lye!). In fact, it looks to be easier to reduce the oxides chemically than it would be thermally FWIW.

The only conditioning I can imagine here is the removal of impurities, and of course oxides. Are there any complex oxides in this scenario? I'm kind of of the opinion that there are things (maybe heavy oxides) that develop in lead pots, and bulid up in the melt over time- some of which cannot be skimmed off. I have no first hand knowledge that this is the case, only seems to fit observations over the years, (much as I'd hate to make your job easier).

Does anyone know of a liquid (at 600 plus degrees) that would cover the surface of the lead and not cook off (possibly borax?) and thus keep oxygen out of contact with the melt?

Buck1, That slush must have evaporated. Ostensibly oxides can't be made to go back into solution. I do think however that it is probable that some oxides reduce while others won't.

[3sixbits]

Dern boys are we a little touchy or what? VTDW has got this down pat and sees what I'm conveying to you folks (or trying to). The Man must be a welder. Let me take a moment to explain to you that I don't care what your pet therapy is and I would not try and dissuade you of it. Somethings in America are still allowed to be believed anyway you want and that's fine with me. I should have know better than to explain what is going on from the metallurgy point of view. I've never thought of myself as the brightest light and therefore wasted my time getting and education on the subjects that provided my livelihood (I found it easier to get and keep jobs this way). When in doubt about any question on this subject I suggest you call a foundry that sells lead products and ask them these questions. That would have the desired effect of removing any doubt of the source (me) of the information. This would also save off the shame of going to a library and reading up on the subject. I've noticed others on this site have directed folks to links that contain this same information, and I have read them, and see why others that have not had an introduction to the terms used on these links was not understood. Often in trying to oversimplify this information we take the results and extrapolate and apply what other knowledge we have to explain to ourselves what's going on.

[montana_charlie]

Often in trying to oversimplify this information we take the results and extrapolate and apply what other knowledge we have to explain to ourselves what's going on.
I think is clear to me, now...

After your extrapolation is complete, and you are satisfied with your understanding of the term 'condition', perhaps you will then have the confidence to share that with us.
CM

[Lloyd Smale]

I talked about this to an old lineotype printer and this is what he had to say about it. He said that fluxing accomplish one thing and one thing only. It gets impuritys out of the lead. Without fluxing at the start of a casting session he would have lots of ink and dirt in his pot. He said that a good portion of the gray skum on top of a pot of lineotype was ink byproducts. He said that he had lead actually tested for composition both new and after alot of use and that the difference was so minute that it woulnd ever effect casting. He said the adding of alloy reinforcers that printers do for the most part was an old wives tale and the only real use for them was to add tin and antimony to lineotype when a alloy harder then lineotype was need and it saved him from having to buy mono or stereotype. He also said a printer that was a good caster for the most part didnt need an alloy harder then lynotype for anything. Said the biggest advantage to fourndry metals were that they casted easier doint intricate shapes but he said someone that is a fairly good could make do with linotype and adust there heat and casting speed and do just as good of a job. He told me the only use he had for foundry type was to make casting that he would reuse for a lifetime. They would keep there sharp edges longer. I asked him about fluxes he used and he took out a whole box full of comercial fluxes and told me I could have them. Said for the most part they were all gimics and he said he fluxed mostly with sawdust and if he didnt have any hed grab a quart of lube oil and use that. Said it worked as well as anything and most of the commerical ones were either wax or some form of powdered borax and they caused more headaches with deposits in his pots then they were worth. He seemed like he knew what he was talking about and didnt quote anything but his own experiences and convinced me that fluxing for the most part isnt even necessicary if your lead is clean.

[leftiye]

Dern boys are we a little touchy or what? VTDW has got this down pat and sees what I'm conveying to you folks (or trying to). The Man must be a welder. Let me take a moment to explain to you that I don't care what your pet therapy is and I would not try and dissuade you of it. Somethings in America are still allowed to be believed anyway you want and that's fine with me. I should have know better than to explain what is going on from the metallurgy point of view. I've never thought of myself as the brightest light and therefore wasted my time getting and education on the subjects that provided my livelihood (I found it easier to get and keep jobs this way). When in doubt about any question on this subject I suggest you call a foundry that sells lead products and ask them these questions. That would have the desired effect of removing any doubt of the source (me) of the information. This would also save off the shame of going to a library and reading up on the subject. I've noticed others on this site have directed folks to links that contain this same information, and I have read them, and see why others that have not had an introduction to the terms used on these links was not understood. Often in trying to oversimplify this information we take the results and extrapolate and apply what other knowledge we have to explain to ourselves what's going on.

Who's getting touchy or what? More info, less recrimination please! Your first post only alluded to what you were trying to say, and you haven't said it yet. Please forgive me if I don't bow down as desired, and please break down and answer a question or two. I've only voiced reservations based on what I thought was good information. You've time and again failed to answer the issues, as in this post. I suspect that YOUR " pet therapy" is obvious to most.

[corvette8n]

When I smelt, I skim off the trash then stir with a wooden dowel, skim some more than pour the ignots. I use the dowel to scrape the sides and bottom.

[3sixbits]

Lloyd Smale: You Sir have found a vary good source of information in your printer friend. I might add that the foundry type lead he was talking about contains a lot of copper and before anyone gets the idea this might be the holly grail of bullet metal, you have to get the copper out to use it for bullets. I've got a bunch of plate foundry type metal, runs 25% antimoney and 12% tin, 2% copper. Once I get around to getting the copper out, I'll alloy it six to one (five parts sheet lead and one part WW) this should make vary good magnum pistol bullets.