Primer sensitivity issue

[Shuz]

I have loaded for the .44 magnum since 1963. Up until recently I have never had a misfire in any of my revolvers or lever guns except for one time, when a decapped Rem 2-1/2 that failed to ignite, showed it had no anvil. I have generally used Rem 2-1/2, CCI-300, or CCI-350 during this time, altho years ago I remember using a few Federals and some RWS primers. Recently I was given a couple a hundred Winchester WLP primers that state they are for standard or magnum pistol loads. I have had several fail to fire on the first strike with these primers. All went bang on a repeat strike. Is this unusual for the WLP primers or are their cups thicker, or? Of course I have no way of knowing how or where these primers may have been stored before I got them, altho the elderly gentleman who gave them to me is the kind of person who generally takes good care of his things. Remember...."Never sniff a gift fish"!

[Mal Paso]

There were several Bad batches of Winchester primers a couple years ago. I got 2 of them. Winchester never admitted guilt but the next batches said: "New coating for improved sensitivity." I don't buy Winchester!

I think I still have some if you want more.:kidding:

[leftiye]

Unless yourGun is dirty, causing light hits, then it sounds like inconsistent primer cup thickness to me. I've lightened all of the hammer springs on my S&Ws and almost never have that happen, so I'd say the cups are victim to low standards of quality.

[geargnasher]

Check the hammer spring tension on your Model 29. Federal primers seem to be the most sensitive pistol primers in my experience.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Leftiye beat me to it by about a second.

Gear

[303Guy]

I like Federal primers. In small rifle they are supposed to be sensitive and low power (which I want for the hornet) and the price and alleged quality is good. I do have one I found that had the anvil sitting sideways. I do know my light striking hornet ignites them just fine.

[felix]

All of the primer manufacturing lines were asked to be able to meet military equivalents on demand. I got this info via a Federal email. I complained about the changes being made via the manufacturing grape vine about 10 years ago now. The federal guy said his company was not changing the "fire" chemicals in the 150 particularly asked about by me, but said the cups were being looked at for the next cycle. He did not mention the various primer numbers and their changes specifically except what I asked for. The implication that all primers had to meet one spec that was not mentioned in the email. I assume all the current primers do NOT meet our specs now unless proven otherwise. The primers we are used to by name and function were speced in 1995. ... felix

[Mal Paso]

Check the hammer spring tension on your Model 29. Federal primers seem to be the most sensitive pistol primers in my experience.

Gear

Absolutely Right. Smith 44s like to shoot themselves loose.

Dern Winchester Primers drove me nuts though replacing springs, primer tools, cleaning pockets, and even bought a second gun. It was the Primers.

[DrCaveman]

Hmm, well I'm glad I didn't go out and buy 1000 win primers like I thought I was gonna have to. I was having probs with CCI primers and a S&w model 19. Federals worked 100%. Sadly i have sort of relegated the m19 to SHTF duty, ever since I cut the top strap. I think the lighter weight 4" gun will be handy in 'real life' situations but did not stand up to the beatings and variables involved with load development.

Felix, your story intrigues me. Do you figure that the primer companies are being pressured to make their product harder to ignite, or the opposite? My experience with surplus military ammo (mostly 7.62x39 Yugo) is that the primers are pretty hard. I had several FTF with my cz527 using said ammo.

Shuz, have you tried any loads since posting which used CCI or Rem primers? It could help us narrow down the culprit. I have certainly heard/read many many stories about the smiths shooting themselves loose. Seems odd that it would happen out of the blue after so many years, but maybe you hit that 'magic' 20,000 round mark or something, and she's finally too weak.

[felix]

Doc, I am not sure of anything right now. I speculate that if there are going to be Blue Helmets on our soil, these UN guys will bring their own guns. Our guns would be rendered museum pieces without serious changes made to their firing mechanisms. Your guess is as good as mine at this point. ... felix

[John Boy]

All of the primer manufacturing lines were asked to be able to meet military equivalents on demand.Felix, I'd venture that this is a true statement, especially for all Federal LP and LR primers.

ATK just inked a multi year contract with Dept of Defense to supply up to 450 million small arms ammunition. All of the contract ammunition will be made by Federal at their plant but I wouldn't bet that CCI primers won't be shipped to Federal to fulfill the contract.

That being said, if I ran ATK and was in charge of the primer productions for CCI & Federal - sure wouldn't be running 2 different production lines: one for civilian and one for the military specifications

My take as non military shooters, the moral is ... don't go putting them 'light' springs in your firearms!

[Mal Paso]

Fascinating! This is the first discussion I've seen with any meat.

It's a bit more than light springs when new guns and mainsprings have FTF issues.

4 year old Redhawk with Mainsprings replaced with new Ruger Factory Springs several times has had FTF Issues with Winchester, Magtech, and Wolf/Tula.

I should say the 629 (Factory Mainspring) had no problem with those loads.

[44man]

Military primers have tough cups because some guns are prone to slam fire because of floating firing pins.
Everyone knows my take on this, that springs can weaken or lighter replacement springs fail for ignition and accuracy.
Anyone loading for an SKS or so has seen it with wrong primers. Drop the bolt and the gun can go auto for a time. I have sprung the firing pins on many so our primers can be used.
My revolvers always get OVER POWER springs and factory springs get replaced so often.
With a S&W, springs last pretty good however the strain screw might have come loose or was turned out to make the trigger lighter. Wrong thing to do in any case. Long ago some ground the springs, again WRONG.
The S&W should fire any primer and if it fails, buy a new hammer spring, they can and do weaken.
Don't search for primers that light off, fix the gun.
Primers must be seated full depth, NOT JUST TO THE ANVIL. The anvil sticks out a little so when the primer is seated, it is pushed in to sensitize the compound. Seat too hard and you will crack the compound, that is why hand priming tools work better then the tons of force from a press. FEEL primer seating and when it stops, quit pushing. I have seen guys use a press and BEND THE BENCH putting in primers, I kind of go off on them!
Speed loading on a progressive also removes primer seating feel along with boolit seating feel. Slamming that machine to make thousands of rounds can make you think again when you really need the round to fire. Bears and BG's really love to hear that "click."

[44man]

Fascinating! This is the first discussion I've seen with any meat.

It's a bit more than light springs when new guns and mainsprings have FTF issues.

4 year old Redhawk with Mainsprings replaced with new Ruger Factory Springs several times has had FTF Issues with Winchester, Magtech, and Wolf/Tula.

I should say the 629 (Factory Mainspring) had no problem with those loads.
True, RH has one spring to balance both the trigger and hammer. I will never own one and prefer the SRH. To make the trigger lighter on a RH means poor hammer impact.
Ruger springs are not the best either.

[Shuz]

Shuz, have you tried any loads since posting which used CCI or Rem primers? It could help us narrow down the culprit. I have certainly heard/read many many stories about the smiths shooting themselves loose. Seems odd that it would happen out of the blue after so many years, but maybe you hit that 'magic' 20,000 round mark or something, and she's finally too weak.[/QUOTE]

The same day I had the FTF with the WLP primers, I fired lots of other rounds with Rem 2-1/2 and CCI-350 mag primers. They all fired as usual. At any point in time, I have 35/ea 50 round boxes of .44 mags fully loaded or partially emptied that may have been loaded over the past several years. (To keep track of the various loads and boolits I use an XL spreed sheet!)
The mainspring on this 629 is a Wolff reduced power mainspring, and coupled with an 11 lb return slide spring, and polished innerds, this gun, with a tight strain relief screw, gives me the 32-34 ounce trigger that I love. Rest assured, I will try these WLP primers in my other 629's and Rugers to see if they also misfire. FWIW the lot number is VML170G.

[Mal Paso]

True, RH has one spring to balance both the trigger and hammer. I will never own one and prefer the SRH. To make the trigger lighter on a RH means poor hammer impact.
Ruger springs are not the best either.

Do you know where I can get Better Mainsprings. Wolf doesn't have anything but reduced power for Colt or RH.

I have a very nice 2 1/4 pound SA Pull on my 629. Stock Mainspring and a 12 lb Wolf Trigger Return Spring. Sear polished on a Power Custom Stand.

[Mal Paso]

I will try these WLP primers in my other 629's and Rugers to see if they also misfire. FWIW the lot number is VML170G.

CBL331G was one bad Winchester batch. I also found 1300 Magtech LPs I set aside cuz they FTF in the 629. BMO528 L-225

Back when I bought factory ammo I noticed all the Primers on the Magtech ammo had a V embossed on them which the loose primers did not. To weaken them?

[44man]

Do you know where I can get Better Mainsprings. Wolf doesn't have anything but reduced power for Colt or RH.

I have a very nice 2 1/4 pound SA Pull on my 629. Stock Mainspring and a 12 lb Wolf Trigger Return Spring. Sear polished on a Power Custom Stand.
The RH is tough. You need a strong hammer spring but that increases trigger pull. I have made some nice with sear work only and that is not easy either.
The bad thing about the RH is reliability means a stronger trigger pull.
You can make a S&W, Ruger BH, SBH or SRH, Freedom or BFR have a super light trigger with a strong hammer spring. Not the RH.
My single actions vary from 19 oz to 1-1/2# with over power Wolff hammer springs.

[Axton1]

OK
This thread is just disturbing! Just a few months ago I purchased 5K of Winchester small pistol primers. Never used them before - always used Federal or CCI but, they were on sale for $24/k.
I'd gotten tired of paying $34/K at the local shops so, jumped on these. [smilie=b:
I have used 3 or 4 hundred so far in 38sp - shot in a M19 Smith with no FTF's. I loaded 10 of them in 380 cases (for wife's Bersa Firestorm - almost new) and 2 of them FTF on first strike Friday. :sad: Both had a small dent in the primer when inspected and both went bang on second try. The rest of a full box of ammo had CCI primers and all shot fine after these two FTF so, pretty sure it's not the gun. (Haven't had time to clean it - will check the usual culprits when I do.) So, these may be too hard for the 380 to be reloading with? Dang! :groner:
Now I'm worried about sticking them in the 40cals - seems that semi-auto's are more prone to this issue than revolvers - thoughts on that?
When I get a little time, I'm gonna test these some more and see what I find out. This would be a LOT of primers to be "stuck with" if they turn out to be junk! (Well, I will use'm up in the wheelie if they continue to go bang in it!) I've got 2-3k of CCI too so, may have to save those for the 380's............
Lordy! I didn't need this!
And I'll have to heed 44man's advice and make SURE that I'm not cracking or "crunchin" the primer - using the press to prime. (Lee Classic Turret) I don't THINK I'm crunchin' them and never had a FTF before from this press......but, I wasn't aware that you COULD crunch them! I thought the press stop kept it from over pressuring them - and I've never put a lot of pressure on them either. So, will monitor that too - thanks 44man!
(Is "crunchin' a primer" a technical term?):mrgreen:
A1

[Shuz]

The same day I had the FTF with the WLP primers, I fired lots of other rounds with Rem 2-1/2 and CCI-350 mag primers. They all fired as usual. At any point in time, I have 35/ea 50 round boxes of .44 mags fully loaded or partially emptied that may have been loaded over the past several years. (To keep track of the various loads and boolits I use an XL spreed sheet!)
The mainspring on this 629 is a Wolff reduced power mainspring, and coupled with an 11 lb return slide spring, and polished innerds, this gun, with a tight strain relief screw, gives me the 32-34 ounce trigger that I love. Rest assured, I will try these WLP primers in my other 629's and Rugers to see if they also misfire. FWIW the lot number is VML170G.

I tried the WLP's in 3 other Smiths and a Ruger, and had only one more misfire. Glad these Winnie primers are almost gone from my "stash".

[ku4hx]

I've not had good luck with Winchester brass or primers. The only problem I had with a revolver was a combination of hard primer cup and reduced power spring. That was my fault and when I replaced the stock springs, the ignition problems almost went away.

However, I've had ignition problem with Winchester Large Pistol primers in all my striker fired guns. Only the Winchesters are labeled for standard and magnum loads and only the Winchesters gave me problems.

I'm with Mal Paso ... I no longer buy Winchester primers.

[44man]

OK
This thread is just disturbing! Just a few months ago I purchased 5K of Winchester small pistol primers. Never used them before - always used Federal or CCI but, they were on sale for $24/k.
I'd gotten tired of paying $34/K at the local shops so, jumped on these. [smilie=b:
I have used 3 or 4 hundred so far in 38sp - shot in a M19 Smith with no FTF's. I loaded 10 of them in 380 cases (for wife's Bersa Firestorm - almost new) and 2 of them FTF on first strike Friday. :sad: Both had a small dent in the primer when inspected and both went bang on second try. The rest of a full box of ammo had CCI primers and all shot fine after these two FTF so, pretty sure it's not the gun. (Haven't had time to clean it - will check the usual culprits when I do.) So, these may be too hard for the 380 to be reloading with? Dang! :groner:
Now I'm worried about sticking them in the 40cals - seems that semi-auto's are more prone to this issue than revolvers - thoughts on that?
When I get a little time, I'm gonna test these some more and see what I find out. This would be a LOT of primers to be "stuck with" if they turn out to be junk! (Well, I will use'm up in the wheelie if they continue to go bang in it!) I've got 2-3k of CCI too so, may have to save those for the 380's............
Lordy! I didn't need this!
And I'll have to heed 44man's advice and make SURE that I'm not cracking or "crunchin" the primer - using the press to prime. (Lee Classic Turret) I don't THINK I'm crunchin' them and never had a FTF before from this press......but, I wasn't aware that you COULD crunch them! I thought the press stop kept it from over pressuring them - and I've never put a lot of pressure on them either. So, will monitor that too - thanks 44man!
(Is "crunchin' a primer" a technical term?):mrgreen:
A1
Some guns just do not have hammer force for every make of primer. Understand the cup strength between one and another is very low until you get into military primers that need to resist floating pins.
It really is the hammer force. All of our primers should fire.
Gun makers try for a light trigger pull by making the spring too light. Double action guns are the worst.
You CAN ruin a primer by seating but when a dent is too small the hammer spring is at fault. To find a primer that goes off is still detrimental to accuracy. Every one of our standard primers should fire.
All of our primers are as good as it can get. A lost anvil is from ROUGH SHIPPING!
Two strikes to fire any primer is the gun.
My revolver springs will fire tough military primers.
I have stressed for years to NEVER reduce hammer springs but gun makers try to get a better trigger pull to sell a gun.
Think spring, spring, spring! Without them, you need a hammer! :holysheep

[rintinglen]

I have used nothing but Winchester Primers for over 20 years. Something like 30,000 of them, maybe more. I have never had FTF issues that were not gun related. It never ceases to amaze me that people who modify their guns to get that 'sweet" trigger then complain when their guns don't go bang.
Case in point: my Ruger Redhawk.

the stock trigger was a little heavy so I availed my self to a Wolf spring set, dropped in the lowest power spring, tried it and thought "oh, that's nifty." Well it felt nifty, but when 4 out of 6 rounds failed to fire, and the primers looked liked someone had hit them with a marshmellow, I knew the jig was up. I replaced the lightest spring with the heaviest one, and low and behold, yesterday when I went to the range, every single round fired. Who would have guessed that shaving 6 pounds off the factory spring would have had such an effect? Actually, I should have.

[Shuz]

rintinglen--I fully understand that a reduced power mainspring can cause misfires. However, the 629 that has the reduced power mainspring fires CCI and Remington primers OK, but won't with the Winchesters. I fired the Winchester WLP's in 4 other Smiths and one Ruger and did manage to get one more misfire in a Smith 629 that has a standard mainspring. Therefore, my conclusion is that WLP primers have a harder cup or I got a bad batch of primers.

[44man]

rintinglen--I fully understand that a reduced power mainspring can cause misfires. However, the 629 that has the reduced power mainspring fires CCI and Remington primers OK, but won't with the Winchesters. I fired the Winchester WLP's in 4 other Smiths and one Ruger and did manage to get one more misfire in a Smith 629 that has a standard mainspring. Therefore, my conclusion is that WLP primers have a harder cup or I got a bad batch of primers.
RARE to get bad primers. Some standard hammer springs are not enough.