45-70 hb 405 for trapdoor

[supertodd]

I finally found the correct stock for my 1884 trapdoor springfield cadet model. I plan to load some lee 405 HB. I normally cast with clip on ww's. should I add some stick on ww to make a softer bullet?

[Larry Gibson]

Smokeless loads or BP?

Do you have Wolf Spence's book?

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

I finally found the correct stock for my 1884 trapdoor springfield cadet model. I plan to load some lee 405 HB. I normally cast with clip on ww's. should I add some stick on ww to make a softer bullet?

I would help if you did. About 1/3 WW and 2/3 stick on.

[supertodd]

Larry- I don't have his book- I was figuring on loading w/ trail boss. Im only going to use this bullet for trapdoor so its easy not to get confused with my 45-70 loads for the contender and guide gun.

[mooman76]

It helped my trapdoor. I bought some harder bullets and they keyholed in mine.

[44-40]

I finally found the correct stock for my 1884 trapdoor springfield cadet model. I plan to load some lee 405 HB. I normally cast with clip on ww's. should I add some stick on ww to make a softer bullet?

I have been shooting Buffalo bullets I purchased from Missouri Bullet Company using both 2FF Black Powder and Unique and they shoot very nice at 100 yards (farthest I shoot at). They are HARD BULLETS, brindell 18, and I have no problem with them. They are 405 gr., .459 diameter RNFP. I put them on a paper towel in the oven to melt the hard blue lubricant from them then resize them in a lyman sizer/lube machine using my home made lube.

[44-40]

It helped my trapdoor. I bought some harder bullets and they keyholed in mine.

If the rate of twist is correct for the bullet weight it should not matter. The only problem I ever had with bullets keyholeing was when the bullet was sized too small for the bore.

[44man]

I finally found the correct stock for my 1884 trapdoor springfield cadet model. I plan to load some lee 405 HB. I normally cast with clip on ww's. should I add some stick on ww to make a softer bullet?
HB is only needed for undersize boolits. It will not make accuracy in any way. Just a better seal. A fix for fouling in BP bores so it is easier to load.
Fit the boolit and don't depend on base expansion. It is a Minie' ball thing and even they work better with a good fit. There is no reason for a HB in cartridges.

[L Ross]

Good luck casting that bullet. They are tricky. You will need to be at the top of your game to prevent holes and air pockets at the top of the hollow base.
Oh, and just to be a nit picker, Trap door Springfields were made to shoot black powder, real black powder, just sayin'.

Duke

[supertodd]

I have cast that bullet before- that shoot good in both my contender and marlin-I like the ranch dog bullets better with the flat nose. but with the trapdoor figured I would use that bullet. I dont even shoot real black in my muzzleloader- shockeys gold ffg. which I thought about using that also- but I'll prob stick to trail boss or 5744. the hollow base is sized to 459. I got a bunch made with co ww.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry- I don't have his book- I was figuring on loading w/ trail boss. Im only going to use this bullet for trapdoor so its easy not to get confused with my 45-70 loads for the contender and guide gun.

Suggest you then add 2% tin to the WWs and then mix it 50/50 with lead. That will stretch the WWs (400 gr bullets eat alloy quickly) and will give a good alloy for that powder. I also you use them as cast, even if .462+ and hand lube or use LLA. That will give better accuracy in your original TD barrel. I've not used Trailboss so I cant comment on a load.

Larry Gibson

[MtGun44]

Lee 405 HB made a massive difference in one of my Trapdoors. One has a nice barrel
and works well with normal boolits as long as not to small or hard. The other one has
an obviously marginal bore and was tossing everything sideways. I tried a soft alloy
Lee 405 HB over 12 gr of Unique and got 4" groups at 100 yds right away.

Bill

[DeadWoodDan]

I hope to be going down this road soon, being i have all but the BP for my trapdoor. I have to go back through the book again but believe it says 30:1 alloy?? anyway i was curious on how to get that?

I currently have WW and 98%Pb ingots to work with using the same mold.

DWD

[Larry Gibson]

You'll need to get some pure tin or 50/50 solder. For 30-1 take 10 lbs of the lead and add 1/3 lb tin. Or 9 2/3 lb lead and add 2/3 lb of the 50/50 solder.

You can't get to 30-1 alloy with WWs because it has antimony in it and very little tin.

Larry Gibson

[curator]

supertodd,

Losta good info from the other posters. The Lee .459-405HB is a great bullet for shooting in the "Trapdoor" Springfield rifle. The bullet is a bit difficult to cast well since it is prone to allowing a void to form inside over the hollow-base pin. Cast of 2/3 stick-on and 1/3 clip-on wheel weights with 2% tin added will result in the correct hardness for the 3-groove Springfield rifling. My mould drops slugs at .462" with this alloy. I found casting them hot (around 825 degrees) and keeping a relatively fast cadence made much better bullets. Don't let the mould cool down between castings once you get it up to temperature.

Don't size them if you can seat them and still chamber the loaded cartridge. Trapdoors have generous bore sizes and shoot best with .460-.464" diameter bullets. I lube mine with a 50/50 bee's wax/Crisco lube. I am not a big fan of Trail Boss in the .45-70, particularly one that is at least 125 years old. AA5744 or SR4759 are better choices if going with smokeless powder. It is difficult to beat a load of 60 grains of FFg black powder if you fill the lube grooves with a soft lube like mine or SPG. Don't expect the "hollow base" to provide any help on bore sealing. It is only there to provide the correct weight for the bullet shape, and the "skirt" is too thick to provide any expansion.

[ian45662]

I would pan lube those boolits if you can no need to size them. Trail boss did really well in my trapdoor for stuff under 100 yards. 5744 did good at a few hundred but 70 grains 2f goex under the saeco 881 500 grain govt bullet was the best . Maybe 4 or 5 inch group at 300 yards. Not to bad for a gun made in 1888

[DeadWoodDan]

You'll need to get some pure tin or 50/50 solder. For 30-1 take 10 lbs of the lead and add 1/3 lb tin. Or 9 2/3 lb lead and add 2/3 lb of the 50/50 solder.

You can't get to 30-1 alloy with WWs because it has antimony in it and very little tin.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

I forgot to mention we also have a few sticks of this on hand

Sn35% + Pb 63.2% + Sb 1.8%

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=112200

I'm wondering if i could combine to get correct alloy?

DWD

[bdoyle]

I had a hard time keeping stock of these when I was shooting cowboy action. The local club had a thing for big bores and you had the option on each stage. I would cast 30:1 and pan lube. Dropped @ .460. Set them on top of a case of compress 2F and a good time was had by all. (unless you were down wind) Worked well in my Marlins and Springfields. Had to seat them out a bit for the Italian Sharps. Better accuracy than I ever got with smokeless at the lower pressures / velocity.

Brian

[45 2.1]

There is no reason for a HB in cartridges.

Had you ever loaded for the early lever actions and some of the single shots, you would find that the chambers won't allow that. The biggest boolit you can chamber is several thousandths to small. Either you use really soft lead/tin alloy or hollow base boolits to get accuracy.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

I forgot to mention we also have a few sticks of this on hand

Sn35% + Pb 63.2% + Sb 1.8%

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=112200

I'm wondering if i could combine to get correct alloy?

DWD

If you want 30-1 alloy; no. See that Sb? That is antimony. 30-1 is a binary alloy of lead and tin with differenc charactoristics than a ternary alloy of lead, tin and antimony. The antimony combines with the tin in the solution. The antimony also is the "hardener" so to speak in the alloy.

You could use it and probably will get a very good alloy for use with Trail Boss and other smokeless powder loads. Considering the very low Sb content it probaly would be ok for some PB loads if the lube was good, the bullet design correct and the fit of the bullet was correct and depending on a lot of obturation. I suggest, if you do use it, that you just compute the Sn content for 30-1 and not more than 20-1 alloys.

Larry Gibson

[MtGun44]

45 -2.1 says it right - Some of the old lever guns are "dimensionally challenged" for modern
loading methods. HB is one of the ways to get them to shoot accurately.

So - the comment that HB is not needed in cartridges ignores several realities where they
are needed.

Bill

[Coconino]

Following Wolf's book to the letter made my Model of 1879 Trapdoor made in 1882 from a 4-5" to 2-3" at 100 yards when the eyes cooperate. I have won a couple of cowboy long range matches with it. Lee 405 HB work fine in that rifle.