Leading - how much does it take to care?

[DrCaveman]

I am still a bit puzzled about leading. The paranoid rantings about barrel leading when using cast boolits stated a few things which had me concerned:

-your rifling grooves may partially fill up, reducing the barrel's ability to stabilize a projectile
-your accuracy will be greatly reduced
-you will spend 3 hours cleaning your barrel, using very abrasive materials and aggressive solvents upon your always-important bore

A little experience has shown me that this issue is very far from black-and-white. I have tried to educate myself on the various locations of leading, their respective causes and solutions.

I have also heard at stated that 'some' leading always occurs when shooting lead boolits.

My question is: at what point of seeing signs of leading do you take remedial action? I guess I am trying to poll the forum members.

The only leading I have seen in my barrels has been in the last inch or so of barrel, and I could not link it to any loss in accuracy. Also it cleaned up very easily with one pass of a cleaning brush with hoppe's #9. Although it seems like I don't have a problem, I would like to eliminate leading entirely (in my case, a stronger lube seems warranted). But perhaps this attitude of mine is unfounded, and should leave well enough alone until I actually see problems.

In any case, I am about to go shoot some 309-150 F boolits in my 30-30. LLA lube, no gas check. My first cast boolit rifle loads. C'mon, leading! I must know my enemy if I am to beat him.

[DeanWinchester]

I clean mine every time I get home from shooting. I shove lightly oiled patches down the bore until they are fairly clean then dry patch a few times to get most of the oil back out. It took a long time for me to come to grips with the idea of LEAVING lead in the bore. I judge it solely from accuracy. If it's still shooting straight, I leave it alone. I only deep clean when accuracy is suffering.

I started doing this after I noticed my rifle shot like poop for the first dozen rounds or so EVERY time I went to the range. AFTER a few it shot GREAT. SO, I skipped a cleaning and when I went back, it shot great. I like to get the black sooty mess out of there, but as far as scrubbing out lead...nope, not me. Not until the rifle stops shooting straight.

[fecmech]

In some situations I tolerate a little bit of leading. An example would be in my 9MM's I always had just a bit of light streak leading when running in the 1150-1250 fps range. It did not accumulate and was the same after 100 shots as after 1 shot and accuracy did not suffer. If it affected accuracy I would correct the problem. In my other handguns and lever guns I just don't get any leading so it's a non issue.

[btroj]

I don't worry about leading rea doesn't affect the desired accuracy over the desired number of rounds.

In other words, a load used for high volume shooting must not lead enough to bother accuracy over a few hundred rounds without cleaning.

A hunting load may lead as long as it gives good accuracy over 10 rounds or so.

I don't clean my barrels often at all. Some may go a 500 rounds or more without a cleaning. Tha isn't possible with much leading.

[DrCaveman]

Thanks for the responses guys. It seems that, as with so many things in the world of cartridge assembly & shooting, there is a lot of individual flexibility allowed. Dean, I like your story about lead in the barrel improving accuracy to some extent. That is a new one to me, and goes to show that the generally accepted notions & practices are very very far from rules.

My main concern was that I may be affecting accuracy in a negative way without knowing it. I began reloading & casting so I could shoot more and become a better shot. I think I have indeed become better, but still far from where I want to be, in terms of consistency and ability to quickly identify technical flaws on my part. I am probably playing with too many variables for this to be taken as 'scientific', but I'll say that it is a ton of fun and I see improvement.

I can't think of any other manufacturing process where I can experience a slight thrill from rejecting my entire run of boolits. When casting, that means I get to pour another 10 lb of boolits for 'free'!

[geargnasher]

Btroj pretty much summed my thoughts up as well.

Don't confuse "leading" with antimony wash, sometimes a little grey, dusty coating in the bore that brushes right out doesn't seem to cause any issues.

If the load does what you want, for as many shots as you want, then it's good. If you have to stop and clean it at a certain point because streaky, flaky lead is building up, then you have a problem.

Gear

[Wolfer]

I've always felt it was the lube fouling left in the bore that made it shoot right.
If I clean my guns they usually need a few shots to settle back in so I don't clean very often. I shoot plain base boolits in my pistols and a couple gas checked boolits with the same lube cleans them up real good without needing fouled.

None of my rifles using LLA have have ever shown any lead but every once in a while I'll run a couple jacketed through it just because. I can't tell if it hurts or helps.

[williamwaco]

See the photos here for ideas on degrees of leading.

Even the leading described here as sever will have no noticable effect on accuracy.

It is described as severe because it appears after only about 20 rounds.

50 to 100 rounds of this load would reduce accuracy.


http://www.reloadingtips.com/pages/index-leading_problems.htm

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[geargnasher]

Here's an example of some crusty leading that makes very little difference. It only appears at the very beginning of the lands where the boolit engraves on them. I clean it out, it comes right back and never gets any worse, so finally I decided to leave it alone. The forcing cone is very rough from a ragged, worn-out forcing cone reamer the factory used, this is why the lead scrapes off there. This is an example from when S&W was churning out a "finished" pistol every six minutes back in the mid-eighties. The cylinder throats were .356" and the rest of the barrel quit leading after I reamed them to .358". This little 2" gun will group under 3" at 25 yards all day, so I figured I'd leave well enough alone and not bother to polish the forcing cone.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_89094ea76ffff2284.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2503)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_89094ea771dca089c.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2504)

Gear

[runfiverun]

it will polish itself in 30-40k rounds.
if it's a rifle bbl and you are truly getting leading at the last couple of inches there are some cures.
up the load/swap powders to keep pushing the boolit for another 2-3 inches in the bbl.
or modify the lube make it a titch softer.

[DrCaveman]

Williamwaco, am I wrong, or is that page only dealing with forcing cone leading? I have looked over that page several times, and I am having a hard time seeing the real differences in degree. Perhaps it is because I have not experienced any leading on that end the barrel, but maybe I am missing something subtle. In any case, don't think that I am experiencing any of the symptoms shown there.

Gear, thanks for chiming in, always appreciated. As a side, I have used your 'rules of precision' signature to knock some reality into honchos of production where I work. Office-mongers often don't get it, and the reality of the rules apply to all endeavors of production/manufacturing. All due respect to those here who work in an office, I am sure you are of the better type.

Now, antimony wash- could this manifest itself as a dark grey/black smearing in the lands near the muzzle? Only the lands, not the rifling grooves (forgive me if my terminology is backward- I mean the ones with a larger diameter). If this is the case, then I guess I still haven't seen real leading first hand.

In any case, I am not having any problems so I will continue shooting. I did not make it out today as planned, so I hope to have something to say about my cast rifle loads by tomorrow afternoon.

[williamwaco]

Williamwaco, am I wrong, or is that page only dealing with forcing cone leading? I have looked over that page several times, and I am having a hard time seeing the real differences in degree. Perhaps it is because I have not experienced any leading on that end the barrel, but maybe I am missing something subtle. In any case, don't think that I am experiencing any of the symptoms shown there.

Gear, thanks for chiming in, always appreciated. As a side, I have used your 'rules of precision' signature to knock some reality into honchos of production where I work. Office-mongers often don't get it, and the reality of the rules apply to all endeavors of production/manufacturing. All due respect to those here who work in an office, I am sure you are of the better type.

Now, antimony wash- could this manifest itself as a dark grey/black smearing in the lands near the muzzle? Only the lands, not the rifling grooves (forgive me if my terminology is backward- I mean the ones with a larger diameter). If this is the case, then I guess I still haven't seen real leading first hand.

In any case, I am not having any problems so I will continue shooting. I did not make it out today as planned, so I hope to have something to say about my cast rifle loads by tomorrow afternoon.


No forcing cone.

That is leading at the leade end of the barrel in front of the chamber around one inch in front of the chamber. It is a Thompson Center Contender .357 Mag barrel.

Gear posted an excellent photo of the forcing cone just above. In my experience forcing cones usually lead in the cone even before the bullet enters the bore. (That is to say it begins there, not that it doesn't continue in to the bore.) There is an excellent device for removing bad leading from the forcing cone. It is the Lewis Lead Remover. It actually has a cone shaped cleaner specifically designed for forcing cones.

You can see it here:

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=21587/Product/LEWIS-LEAD-REMOVER


The puropse of my photos is simply to show what leading looks like. We frequently get questions from people who are too new to recognize it when they see it.

Your leading is occurring at the muzzle. That may occur when you are running out of lube. My leading in front of the chamber is caused by poor bullet fit when the bullet exits the chamber and enters the leade.


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[canyon-ghost]

My advice is to stop using Hoppe's for cast bullet loads and, I own a quart of Hoppe's! A better solvent is Mineral Spirits from the lumber yard. While leading is hard to clean, it doesn't necessarily mean you should use abrasives. Everyone should own nylon brushes and bronze brushes for cleaning. Bronze for tough jobs, Nylon for everyday stuff.

[runfiverun]

once you learn how to recognize it and it affects accuracy then you can take steps to fix it.
once you fix it you don't need to clean it out.
the fxed rounds will remove it for you.

[40Super]

I had boughten a Outers Foul Out II system that basicaly uses electrolsis to remove all lead from the bore and puts it on a rod where you just wipe it off. No abrasive or chemicals are needed. Some of my Beretta barrels are rather rough and even though hand polishing them helped,they still got leading.By running .358 for 9mm and .403+ sized bullets for my 40's it has gotten rid of alot of it also.
Other than those, most of my good barrels,as long as the bullet is sized right,leading doesn't give any issues.

[geargnasher]

Your leading is occurring at the muzzle. That may occur when you are running out of lube.

Running out of lube? I hear that said a lot, but I'm not so sure, hear me out on this and tell me what you think. I tend to believe that that's just another old "wives tale" to explain something not very well understood in the past. My observations have been that if you're running out of lube it's because you have loss of obturation (gas leaks) that blew it all out ahead of the boolit, and the leading isn't from lack of lube, it's from the boolit dust carried forward with the gas and lube. The idea that lube is "used up" as it goes down the barrel just never held water for me, unless the boolit doesn't fit at some point, like after passing a restriction, and the seal is blown. As an aside, I'm not sure I've ever seen lube actually prevent lead from sticking to a barrel, either, regardless of some pretty outragous claims from some people (Ahem!) Richard Lee, for example!

Gear

[btroj]

I have almost never had leading anywhere but in the throat or along the entire barrel. Leading at the muzzle only I would say is like gear said, at some point the bullet hit a constriction and lost seal with the bore.

More and more I am beginning to see lube as less a lube and more a fluid sealer between the bullet and bore.

[DrCaveman]

So, since my boolit/lube combo leaves no leading in the forcing cone or start of bore, but does on the last inch of a 6" gP100, do I have an obstruction/restriction somewhere near the muzzle?

It seemed to make sense that the lube got used up, in that it burned or came off the bullet. But it also makes sense that a properly fit fluid system like between a boolit & bore, lubricant should stay in the grooves. I am thinking that the CYA approach is to go a little higher in viscosity than LLA, perhaps that is why the Recluse formula is popular.

Barrel restriction? What could have caused that?

[runfiverun]

turning the outside of the bbl.
the 45 lube is popular because it works.
it works differently than lla does.
it actually softens and flows.

btroj's thoughts on lube,gave me a warm fuzzy. [little smile to self]
matching viscosity to the bbl's requirements is the key.

with lla you don't run out of lube you most likely burn off/out the thin seal.
that's why the first piece of advice is to add another coat of the stuff.
and why it smokes.

[geargnasher]

Front sights on a GP 100 is a common point of restriction. They mash the barrel when they install them. They also mash the barrel where the roll-on script is on the left side above the crane pin, and of course much of the time the barrel threads crush and choke the bore where the barrel screws into the frame. And the cylinder throats are often smaller than groove dimensions. Lots to tackle sometimes with a revolver, although it sounds like the only issue you might be having is with the muzzle end.

Williamwaco, I think I misunderstood you about the running out of lube thing, I didn't realize you were specifically talking about LLA. I think that stuff all rubs off before the boolit gets engraved :kidding:

Gear

[40Super]

Gear beat me to it, several models and brands have "restrictions from where the front sight is staked (or other methods) to the barrel,Rugers were/are also known for there tight barrel under the threads and then getting several thou bigger for the rest of the length. Other brands probably do the same but not as noticeable.

Take a slug of your barrel,push it all the way down the bore and feel if it gets tight somewhere along the way.

[williamwaco]

Running out of lube? I hear that said a lot, but I'm not so sure, hear me out on this and tell me what you think. I tend to believe that that's just another old "wives tale" to explain something not very well understood in the past. My observations have been that if you're running out of lube it's because you have loss of obturation (gas leaks) that blew it all out ahead of the boolit, and the leading isn't from lack of lube, it's from the boolit dust carried forward with the gas and lube. The idea that lube is "used up" as it goes down the barrel just never held water for me, unless the boolit doesn't fit at some point, like after passing a restriction, and the seal is blown. As an aside, I'm not sure I've ever seen lube actually prevent lead from sticking to a barrel, either, regardless of some pretty outragous claims from some people (Ahem!) Richard Lee, for example!

Gear

Gear,


I agree with every word. My comment was just from "they say". Personally, in over 50 years of loading cast bullets, I have never seen lead at the muzzle. ( except once - below) In my experience it is always in the first inch of the bore and if you don't fix it, it will progress down the bore at a rate of about one inch per 50 to 100 rounds.

I have never recovered a cast bullet that didn't still have lube in the grooves, ( except for tumbled lubed bullets ). So again I doubt the story.

Many years ago I had a .44 Special with a bad case of thread choke at the forcing cone. It was a disaster. Took me quite a while to figure it out. It wouldn't consistently hit a paper plate at 10 yards and after 15/20 rounds it was severly leaded from one end to the other. Recovered bullets still had lube but no rifling marks. They measured about .420 as recovered. ( I tell this story to support your contention that running out of lube probably just doesn't happen. )

Now a confession. I make it a general rule not to comment on something I haven't actually seen or done. I broke that rule in this answer and you caught me.

I have no idea what causes leading at the muzzle of either handguns or rifles. I have never seen it. "Running out of lube" sounds plausible but in my experience answers that are obviously true and self evident, are frequently not.


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[geargnasher]

Like I said, I missed the part about LLA, that stuff does seem to run out in long barrels unless things are just perfect, and I think that by the ash trail it leaves behind in the barrel one might assume that it is indeed being "used up" as it goes, or the coating it leaves burns off as soon as it's laid down by the boolit.

Gear

[DrCaveman]

Ok, just to add to the story/confusion, I ran some boolits thru my rifles today with no leading.

First was 30-30 marlin 336 microgroove, lee 309-150-f in front of 8.2 gr trail boss. Very light load indeed. I applied no gas check, and lube consisted of a single coat (med heavy) of LLA. No leading, accuracy ok, boolit expansion very substantial.

Second was CZ527 in 7.62x39, shooting Lee 312-160-2r in front of 15.0 gr imr4227. This load felt like a rifle, and shot a little lower than milsurp ammo. Very precise, however, and left no leading in my barrel.

Neither boolit was sized. Both did receive an experimental dusting with graphite. My biggest surprise is that the lack of gas check proved so inconsequential.

[prs]

Gear!?!?!

A good experiment for YOU to do would be to load some plain boolits without lube and shoot about a hundred or so. Then you can tell us about leading.

prs (whose PRS boolits don't run out of lube)

[geargnasher]

Actually, I shot quite a few near-pure lead, unlubed 311041 boolits sans the gas check in my microgroove Marlin .30-30 with zero leading at around 12-1300 fps (estimated) and minute-of-beercan accuracy at 30 yards as an experiment one time. The trick was to use Malt-O-Meal for a filler. No lube necessary to prevent leading if you keep the gas from leaking.

Gear

[DrCaveman]

Gear, what sort of powder load did you use? If you don't wanna give numbers, then I am fine with something like '80% case capacity with alliant 2400'.

I presume the malt o meal is filling up the case, thereby providing consistent combustion. How does this help gas from leaking? Or maybe the malt o meal rides down the barrel, and provides some level of obturation, regardless of boolit fit or lubricant. Can you explain?

[TinCan Assassin]

But I like LLA... :(

[stubshaft]

If I see streaks of lead then I care.

[geargnasher]

Gear, what sort of powder load did you use? If you don't wanna give numbers, then I am fine with something like '80% case capacity with alliant 2400'.

I presume the malt o meal is filling up the case, thereby providing consistent combustion. How does this help gas from leaking? Or maybe the malt o meal rides down the barrel, and provides some level of obturation, regardless of boolit fit or lubricant. Can you explain?

Simple, the filler packs up and plugs the bore behind the boolit upon firing. No gas leaks=no leading. Mild load of, you guessed it, 2400, filler added and slightly compressed by the seating boolit, the filler added significant pressure to the load. Not really worth trying again, I mentioned it for argument's sake and to point out that boolit lubes don't necessarily do what some people think they do.

Gear

[BulletFactory]

The only leading I have seen in my barrels has been in the last inch or so of barrel,

Well, just get a hacksaw, and nip off the last inch or so of your barrel. duh!

[prs]

Gear, its easy to think of lube as being, well, lube.

Neat experiment with Malt-O-Meal. I use Quaker Quick Grits. At least in black powder loads, the lube seems to act as a coolant for the barrel as well as a fouling softener agent.

prs

[runfiverun]

i can assure you that in no way does gear think of lube as just a lube.
alox is a fair additive for some things.....
lla is the only one i know of that depends on the boolit for help.

[leftiye]

I don't like none (leading). I like a Carnauba shiny bore. A little grey wash won't get my panties in a knot though.

[DrCaveman]

Runfiverun, what do you mean by: depends on the bullet for help? Are you just saying that TL designed boolits work best with LLA, or are you saying something else?

I seem to have had great results using LLA with a few non-TL boolits, notably the lee 358-105 swc, and the Lyman 358430 (although the leading caused by the latter is still in debate).

Leftiye, is the grey wash you speak of the same as the antimony wash mentioned earlier? I assume this causes no accuracy problems, and cleans easily? This may be what I experienced in my revolver, still not totally sure.

[Sonnypie]

Williamwaco, I think I misunderstood you about the running out of lube thing, I didn't realize you were specifically talking about LLA. I think that stuff all rubs off before the boolit gets engraved :kidding:

Gear

It use to be I would wind up with more of that on my fingers than the bullets. But I cured that.
What never made sense was lube on parts of the bullet like the tip and the base.