TL Boolit in Walker Experiment

[Ricochet]

I've mentioned this in several other threads. Figured I'd just move it to a new one. I have this Italian (San Marco) Colt Walker replica with .440" chambers. Round balls up to .457" and the original style .451" conical boolit from the brass mould in the case, which has a .420" heel, work well. It's a pain to cast in that brass mould. Looking for something to make boolits for it at a high production rate (like 6 holes) I noticed that the Lee TL452-230-TC had a beveled base. Someone was nice enough to confirm that the flat at the end of the bevel was smaller than .440", meaning it should allow centering in the chamber mouths, and I ordered such a mould from Midway. Got it today and cast up a batch of boolits of very soft lead. Just tried for fit and found that the bevel does indeed allow setting the boolit in place in line over the chamber as expected. The fly in the ointment is that these boolits are slightly longer than the original conicals (perhaps 1/8" by the calibrated Mk. I eyeball) and have a very wide meplat. The corners of the meplat hang in the front of the loading cutout in the bottom of the frame, just enough to bump the boolit off the front of the chamber and tip it. After it's through the cutout, a bit of manipulation can line it back up so it's in line with the chamber and rammer, but it's awkward. I do believe it's possible to make it work, and I plan to try shooting a few to test whether the microbanded tumble lube boolits will shear off easily enough for seating. If so, I expect I'll look at a shorter design boolit. Lee says the TL boolits all have a bevel base, though it's not as apparent in the pictures to me as on the TL452-230-TC. The TL452-200-SWC looks like a good prospect, and now I'm looking at the 452-160-RF and thinking it looks like it might have a bevel. Anyone know for sure?

I might also rig up something to swage the noses of these boolits a little with a round top punch. Wouldn't take much rounding of the corners of the meplat to make them work.

I've got a Government Model .45 that I'm sure will be happy with them as they are. :)

[flinchnjerk]

The 452-160-RF's a bevel base. Putting the calipers as gently as possible across the closed blocks, I get .401 and .403 across the base of the cavities in one mould, .401 and .402 in the other. Length of bullet is .425.

[Ricochet]

Thank you, Flinchnjerk!

That's an interesting little boolit. Looks a lot like the old style Remington cap & ball boolits, but with the nose flattened. It's not a lot heavier than a ball. Occurs to me it'd be an interesting one to experiment with in the .45 ACP as well. I wanted one of Lee's old 452-155-SWC moulds, but they got discontinued and I couldn't find one.

I woke up this morning with one of those "Well, DUH!" realizations. I'd looked at the length of the TL452-230-TC boolit compared to the original heeled conical, saw it was just a little longer, but not by nearly as much as the clearance around the nose of the original in the loading port. What I forgot to account for is that the heeled boolits slide about 1/4" into the chamber mouth before the cylinder rotates down to carry the boolit into the port. The beveled base of the Lee boolit barely starts into the chamber mouth, so the whole length of the boolit's sticking out, plus the meplat is wider. Oh well, it's a nice .45 ACP boolit. I can load some in the Walker by inserting them at an angle into the port and manipulating them in line to ram in, for experimental purposes. Too much hassle for extended use. I'm not concerned about the 241 grain as-cast weight boosting pressures to dangerous levels with RS Pyrodex.

[44man]

This is what you need. This one is home made and the adjustable stop allows me to seat each ball or boolit at the same depth. I would not be without it.

[Ricochet]

That is nice for experimentation like I'm doing. Don't want to have to take the revolver apart every time to load, though. That's why I don't have a Paterson. :-D

[Ricochet]

That little boolit only comes from Lee in a two-cavity mould. I just ordered one from Lock, Stock & Barrel. First two-cavity Lee for me. It'll sure cast faster and easier than my Italian brass mould.

[Larry Gibson]

Have you tried sizing the bullet about half way so it will drop into the chambers a little farther like the original heeled conical?

Larry Gibson

[Ricochet]

Nope. Don't have a working base-first sizer.

Besides which, sizing the base of a .452" boolit into a .431" sizer (next commonly available size down that would work) might be a bit tricky.

Actually had thought about experimenting with squishing down the base band with a Lee Factory Crimp Die for .44 Magnum. Lot of work, though.

[Mk42gunner]

Ricochet,

Lyman makes a .439 diameter sizing die for the .43 Spanish. I may have to get one of those molds to try it out.

How do you keep the rammer from dropping on your Walker? I haven't shot mine (Armi San Marco) very much because of that.


Robert

[Ricochet]

You don't keep the rammer from dropping on a Walker. They dropped 160 years ago. They still drop. I just bump it back up with my left hand routinely. They put a latch on the front end of the rammer on Dragoons to stop it. I suppose you could put a rubber band around the rammer and barrel, if you weren't too concerned about seeing the front sight.

[BruceB]

I must have the only Walker in captivity that DOESN'T drop the rammer on every shot.

Mine's a Colt "Traditions" issue (I think? Black box w/ gold lettering etc.), which was a Christmas present from my wife at least 20 years ago. It doesn't see all that much shooting, but it's far from being a virgin, and the rammer has NEVER fallen on discharge.

I find it's stimulating just to stuff it with roundball with the max blackpowder charge, and fire away. Never have tried any refinements on the load at all. You fellers are getting me interested in doing so, and I DON"T NEED THAT!!!!!! I already have a full 'project burden', dang it.....

What a fascinating chunk of steel these Walker Colts are! And, what a difference for a trooper of 1847, going from his single-shot carbine and handgun to having TWELVE reliable rounds available instantly.

[flinchnjerk]

Ricochet
Like you, I hankered for the Lee 452-155-SWC, but stalled, procrastinated, maybe next monthed , etc. until the mould was discontinued. That's why I have a pair of the 452-160-RF moulds - thought it'd be a good bullet for a ***** .45 load in my 1911s. That's a good way to test one's level of patience and maturity; despite my having been on the planet for close to six decades, I'm sadly lacking in both qualities.Then, about two years ago, I blindly stumbled upon a NIB .452-155-SWC; likely the last one extant on the planet. FYI, it's a plain base; mine drops 'em .454 at the base with WW + 1% tin. Length is .588.

[Ricochet]

I can't pussify my .45 loads too much, because I'm too cheap to buy a light recoil spring for it. :mrgreen:

I've always stayed fairly close to factory hardball bullet momentum levels for it, because that's the recoil impulse it was designed for. (I have experimented a bit with those higher velocity 230 grain loads, but thought that was unnecessary frame battering, and what's the point, anyway?) I think it'd be fun to shoot some supersonic loads out of the old .45, just for the heck of it.

Re Walker lever dropping, I think the critical element is the engagement of that barb on the latch spring with the mating surface on the lever. Some of you trigger stoners might want to take a look at that with an eye to how it might be improved. Don't want to lock it up so it can't be pulled down for use, of course. Mine drops fairly often, but not on every shot. I'm not worried about it as it's a fun gun that I don't have to rely on for serious business. (Although I do have a Bianchi X-15 that fits it perfectly, and it conceals well under a light jacket.)
:lol:

[Ricochet]

Well, the TL .45 boolit idea seemed good, but it won't work. The chamber diameter is smaller than the diameter at the base of the tiny grooves. So it's shaving all the way up the side. When I started pushing the boolit in with the rammer, I could see all the grooves and bands simultaneously compress right up to the top. Then, with the rammer pressing on the nose with such firm resistance at the base and the boolits being soft, they bulge in the middle. The boolit wants to bend and tip, making a real mess, and it shaves off a most impressive ring of lead if one is persistent enough to force it all the way into the chamber. I got one in and fired it, the 60 grain volumetric load of RS Pyrodex launching it through a clean, lightly oiled barrel at 830 FPS.

Those heeled, phallic looking boolits from the Italian brass mould sure do load easily and generally shoot well. Only problem with them or round balls is there's not much tight fitting bearing surface, and sometimes one will come completely loose and protrude out of the chamber from recoil, which can lock up the cylinder. When one sticks out like that, it's easily pushed back in with a finger.

I'm looking forward to trying the 452-160-RF. Won't be trying them over a Chrony for a while, though. One of those replica mould boolits took care of that. (That's what I get for shooting low over it with a one-handed hold, when I was getting tired.)

[flinchnjerk]

"Pussify". I hope that you didn't copyright that neologism; I plan to put some mileage on it.

[DLCTEX]

I cast .454 dia boolits for my Ruger OA, then size half of the base band to .451 to facilitate starting them squarely in the chamber. Makes a good snug fit without backing out with heavy loads. The base sizing is done in an RCBS lubrisizer. I think the key to boolits staying in place is staying square from start to finish. Dale

[Ricochet]

"Pussify". I hope that you didn't copyright that neologism; I plan to put some mileage on it.
Neither copyrighted nor a neologism, it used to be a pretty commonly used term when I was in college many years ago. Usually in past tense referring to someone who'd had it done to him, or so we manly men thought.

[Ricochet]

Dale, you're absolutely right about the need to keep boolits square and true. It's too bad Lee doesn't have a light gascheck boolit in the .45 size. That'd be perfect.

[flinchnjerk]

Ah, yes, that makes etymological sense, since it seems that many guys, after having been "pussified", deteriorate to the state of being "pussiwhippified".

[Ricochet]

Exactly.

[TDB9901]

Guilty as charged.

I wish you guys wouldn't talk about me behind my back!

[Ricochet]

Back to feeding lead to the Walker, my 452-160-RF mould came in today and I've just cast some up. They look like old time revolver boolits. I have high hopes.

[Ricochet]

This little boolit works!

Mine is not bevel based. Rather, it has a very short rebated cylindrical portion just like a miniature gas check shank. That's perfect for centering it straight over a chamber mouth, and the boolit shears and seats easily. Someone at Lee was thinking of .44 cap and ball revolvers when they designed this boolit.

The mini-heel being so short, it's not as easy to seat and keep straight as the old style heeled boolit. If a sheared lead ring from a previous boolit is still hanging around under the rammer, it'll tip the next boolit and it'll get shoved into the chamber sideways. But with care, it works very well.

It is possible to inadvertently put a second boolit on top of one already loaded, and a 60 grain volumetric charge of RS Pyrodex will compress sufficiently to allow cocking and shooting it with minimal scraping of the boolit nose. If someone for some reason wanted to deliberately load two-bullet loads, I'd recommend switching to a 50 grain spout on the flask.

For some reason, I have no chronograph data.

[Ricochet]

I just had a little free time, it was beautiful outside, and I snuck out to the range with my Walker and some 452-160-RFs. Shot three cylinders full, and had to quit because the Pyrodex in my flask was running out. Forgot to keep the tank topped up. Was using my "Brown Thunder" that I accidentally dumped a whole bunch of beeswax in, so it's about the consistency of soft beeswax now. Works well with Pyrodex, as it does with smokeless. As I've said earlier, these boolits can be easily tipped so they jam, but work well if you're careful to center the boolit properly over the chamber to start with and don't let the shaved lead rings or any extra wax lube from a previously loaded boolit hang around the loading port area. I've about got the hang of it. I may just go back to using .451" or .454" balls, though, just for quick, easy loading without having to think about it.

One boolit went through the plastic bottle I was shooting at, glanced off the dirt, hit the railroad tie backstop, came back and hit me square in the right shin. Didn't really hurt, it was going about as fast as a thrown piece of gravel. I picked the boolit up out of the gravel at my feet and stuck it in my pocket. I'll get a pic of it later. Picked up another that didn't make it back to me. I've picked up lots of other bullets off the ground that rebounded from the ties, but this is the first time one whacked me.

[45nut]

"One boolit went through the plastic bottle I was shooting at, glanced off the dirt, hit the railroad tie backstop, came back and hit me square in the right shin."



I flinched when I read that!

[Ricochet]

I picked up another one that didn't quite make it back to me. Also several .45, 9mm and .40 hardball bullets that had rebounded from the tie.