1911a1, Mil-Spec vs Custom?

[TNFrank]

I get into, shall we say, "discussions" on web forums all the time about this topic. There's a few guys who just think the ONLY way to own a 1911a1 is to get an expensive Custom gun from Wilson Combat, Les Baer , Ed Brown or even Kimber.
I take the other side of the coin and say that a good ol' Mil-Spec 1911a1 that's inexpensive and even made in the Philippines(RIA or ATI) or even Turkey(Regent) will put a hole in paper and work reliably with just a bit of "fluff and buff" by the owner and instead of having $2500-$3000 into the thing you can get one for $500 or even less if you shop around.
Now, guys that reload and cast their own boolits, being a frugal and cost effective bunch, what say you? Do ya'll think(like I do) that a good ol' Mil-Spec 1911a1 is "good enough" for the average person(not talking guys who make a living with their guns shooting competition or Special Forces guys, just normal, run of the mill folk.) or do you think that you just have to spend the Big Bucks on a 1911a1 to get a good one?

[rockrat]

I would go with the Mil-spec gun. That way you can enjoy shooting now and no telling what you might come across for sale elsewhere. I bought a RIA a couple of years ago, been shooting it, and recently found a Colt gold cup at a small gun shop for under $800, and it was basically nearly new. Now, I am going to sell the RIA.
You might even come by a good Kimber, or custom gun for 1K or less. Things are "coming out of the woodwork" so to speak and there are good deals to be found at times

[TNFrank]

I think with a set of $20 buck Double Diamond grips from CDNN this gun looks as nice as any "Custom" that I've seen and it shoots pretty well too. Why would I want to spend more on something when this gun does just what I want at a price that I could afford.
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg690/scaled.php?server=690&filename=1911a1st.jpg&res=medium
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg813/scaled.php?server=813&filename=atinewgrips2.jpg&res=medium
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg688/scaled.php?server=688&filename=atinewgrips1.jpg&res=medium

[Echo]

I'm for the mil-spec. I shot competitively with a 1911A1 that had been accurized by Lew Willing in the USAF Custom Gun Shop. They routinely accurized Air Force Premium Grade (AFPG)1911's to 3"/50 yd accuracy without adding ANY new parts - 3"/50 yds equals 10-ring accuracy. Mine would go about 2.5" @ 50. They told me that accurizing a 1911 required about 10 hours of labor, and that the factory barrel was generally plenty good and seldom needed replacing with another (factory) barrel to achieve 10-ring accuracy. I cleaned a 50-yd target @ Perry once with that gun.
That being said, if one needs a gun for SD, IM Never-to-be HO issue Slab-Sides is good enough. But T. Whelen said it - 'Only accurate guns are interesting.'.

[dragonrider]

The cost of any gun matters only to the person paying for it. What you think about what someone else is willing to pay for is irrelavent.

[bob208]

i have a 70 searies colt. the only thing did to it was throw that barrel bushing away and fit a n.m. bushing. used it for bowling pins and bullseye. it is reliable and shoots good. many years ago i shot falling plate there were a few full bore race guns in .38 super. more tricks then a monkey in a mile of vines. i beat them every time with a 6" colt o.p. all stock.

[Love Life]

All depends. I have owned high end 1911 pistols before and base line milspecs. All shot as well as I could. I had serious reliability issues with a Kimber Custom Royal, but had no issues with a Kimber TLE II.

My springfield was garbage. My PT1911 was good to go.

Doesn't matter to me how much a gun costs. It all depends on what I want. If I want a mil-spec then I get the best deal out there. If I want a top of the line or hard to find model then I spend the cheddar required to get what I want.

So my answer=irrelevant

[felix]

If you like to play with your toys as well as use them, then go military. If you are terrible with your hands by physical and/or mental ailments, then go the custom route. Going the custom route depends on the use of the gun and how it needs to be optimised for that endeavor. One of my sons has a full military (Turkey CNC model: Regent), and the other son has a custom Kimber tailored for 50 foot bullseye. World of difference between the two sons and guns. ... felix

[TNFrank]

I just love it when people try to tell me that I have to have a custom 1911a1 or I'll not have a reliable, accurate gun. Sure, the customs are better, they should be for 5-6x the price difference but I don't think that they're better enough FOR ME to warrant the extra expense. Besides, my wife would have my head if I ever spent that much for a handgun.LOL.

P.S.
I actually had a guy on another forum tell me that I must not love my family very much if I'd only spent $450 on the ATI that I had to defend them. LOL.

[KYCaster]

I'll probably step on a few toes here.....

.......but..........

First thing Frank, that's not a "mil-spec" gun.....at least three features on the outside disqualify it.

Many gun owners are not capable of doing ANY work to their guns without doing considerable damage. They either have to accept what they can get from the factory or pay someone to do the work for them. No matter what their desire, there is a product available (or a gunsmith who will make it available). They may find that the price is beyond their reach, but it is available.

You may consider an accurized Colt 1911a1 to be the ultimate competition gun, but at today's prices that one will cost $1600.00 +. Make it a currently manufactured 1991a1 and the price comes down a bit, but you're still looking at $1200 +.....and the series 80 parts make it a deal killer for me.

OK, I'm nit pickin'....I admit it. Actually there are very few people who are more cost conscious than I am. I could be perfectly happy with your ATI. As a matter of fact the gun I shoot in USPSA Single Stack division started as a mil-spec Springfield. I also have a back up gun I take to the matches just-in-case :roll:. It was made by Brolin Arms in the 1970's.....it cost me $300 OTD at a local pawn shop.

......but......it doesn't bother me a bit to see somebody pay what I consider an outrageous price for their gun. What does bother me is the guys who bolt on after market accessories, call it "custom" and expect you to pay a premium for their service.

First and foremost, a gun has to function.....every thing else is "fluff and buff", but some custom smiths have taken fluff and buff to an art form and, although it's not something I would personally pay for, I can easily understand why someone would pay a premium to own their product. Check out Limcat Custom ( http://www.limcat.com/photo-gallery/ ) and you'll see what I mean.

Quote bob208 " i have a 70 searies colt. the only thing did to it was throw that barrel bushing away and fit a n.m. bushing. used it for bowling pins and bullseye. it is reliable and shoots good. many years ago i shot falling plate there were a few full bore race guns in .38 super. more tricks then a monkey in a mile of vines. i beat them every time with a 6" colt o.p. all stock."

Bob.....every time.....WOW, that's quite a feat. I'd be proud too!

Jerry

[bobthenailer]

For me at least after i had my 1st 1911 tricked out i wanted them all tricked out , i am able to do most of the work myself minus any any drilling & taping and milling work which is done by a machinest friend . Ive use 70 series colts , springfield armory and caspian matched frame & slides whats nice i usually spread the cost over 6 mounths to a year , bought some parts installed them then bought some more parts ect until they were done

I think my least modfied gun was a SA loaded , did a trigger job fitted a briley spherical barrel bushing and swaped the fixed novack rear sight for the same style but adjustiable as it hit low with every load & bullet weight tried even after lowering the front sight to 0.160

[TNFrank]

First thing Frank, that's not a "mil-spec" gun.....at least three features on the outside disqualify it.


I get what you're saying Jerry, I guess by "Mil-Spec" I meant more "Non-Custom", i.e. Wilson Combat, Les Baer, Ed Brown and even Kimber to a certain degree. You know, the higher priced guns. I'm sure you could buy a "Mil-Spec" Ed Brown and spend $2000 on it, to me that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about all these sub-$800(and even $600) dollar guns that are on the market today. Many 1911a1 "Affectionados" would turn their nose up at anything that didn't cost at least $1000 bucks and even then they'd send it off for a $1000 dollar "fluff and buff" to they're pet gunsmith.
I'm just basically trying to point out(and seems like without much success ) that a $500 dollar ATI can work just as well for someone and be just as reliable and accurate enough to get the job done if someone doesn't have $3K to put into a Custom.
I wish there was someway to explain what I"m trying to say but unless you're in my head and can think what I'm thinking I think it'll always get a bit lost in translation. :coffeecom

[btroj]

Depends upon what you want it for, how much you want to spend, and how much of a "brag factor" you are after.

If I was a bullseye shooter I would buy a gun set up specifically for that game. Same for any of the "speed" events.

I own one 1911, a Colt Gold Cup. Met my needs, my budget, and my desire for adjustable sights I could easily see. Hasn't disappointed me at all.

Don't ever let someone else tell you what gun you need. It is a personal decision, get what fits the needs as you have determined them.

[KYCaster]

I get what you're saying Jerry, I guess by "Mil-Spec" I meant more "Non-Custom", i.e. Wilson Combat, Les Baer, Ed Brown and even Kimber to a certain degree. You know, the higher priced guns. I'm sure you could buy a "Mil-Spec" Ed Brown and spend $2000 on it, to me that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about all these sub-$800(and even $600) dollar guns that are on the market today. Many 1911a1 "Affectionados" would turn their nose up at anything that didn't cost at least $1000 bucks and even then they'd send it off for a $1000 dollar "fluff and buff" to they're pet gunsmith.
I'm just basically trying to point out(and seems like without much success ) that a $500 dollar ATI can work just as well for someone and be just as reliable and accurate enough to get the job done if someone doesn't have $3K to put into a Custom.
I wish there was someway to explain what I"m trying to say but unless you're in my head and can think what I'm thinking I think it'll always get a bit lost in translation. :coffeecom



I understand exactly what you're saying Frank, and I agree completely.

It's really sad the way some people think they can "buy" a win by spending more money on a gun. Some of them finally "get it" and some don't.

That doesn't mean there's anything bad about custom guns.....if that's what you want, go for it......but, like you say, most shooters would be just as well served with something costing substantially less.

:popcorn:

Jerry

[geargnasher]

I just love it when people try to tell me that I have to have a custom 1911a1 or I'll not have a reliable, accurate gun. Sure, the customs are better, they should be for 5-6x the price difference but I don't think that they're better enough FOR ME to warrant the extra expense. Besides, my wife would have my head if I ever spent that much for a handgun.LOL.

P.S.
I actually had a guy on another forum tell me that I must not love my family very much if I'd only spent $450 on the ATI that I had to defend them. LOL.

I guess I'm doing my family a disservice for only spending $300 for a 1300 Defender and five bucks for a box of 00 shells.

Of course you could get a $500 golf club and call that your HD weapon.

The answer to the original question is "depends". Personally, I like a cheap, functional 1911. I also like it to shoot straight, which means I usually forgo the "cheap" and buy a Kimber. That's why I have three of them. No bs, no fooling around with parts or adjustment, just take it out of the box and go shooting. Do put at least 300 FMJ ball rounds through it and give it a good cleaning/light oiling before you press it into important service though, all mine were very tight and needed the Kimber-recommended break-in for full reliability.

Gear

[MtGun44]

How good a trigger do you want? How good accy do you want?

If 3-4" at 7 yds pleases you, go for the cheapest one out there. If you don't mind 7 -8 lbs and
gritty trigger, the lowest cost will meet that standard.

If you want a 3.5 lb crisp trigger with almost no overtravel and very short reset, and want
1.5" at 25 or 2" at 50 yd capability, you will have to pay more money, BUT NOT $2500.

Buy a Dan Wesson Pointman for $1200 to $1400 and you will have a gun literally every bit
as precisely made and fitted as the $2500+ guns for around half the price and around
twice what the most basic gun costs.

Yugo or Honda or BMW. BMW is great but a Honda is 90% as good for half the money.

You choose.

Bill

[TNFrank]

You saw the group my "cheap" ATI cut, if it wasn't for the flier(my fault, not use to shooting a SA trigger) it'd have been 1" at 7 yards, that's pretty good IMHO. Also, my trigger is crisp and feels like about 5 lbs, I can't see spending another $2K for something that's already as good as I'd want it to be for $450.

[Love Life]

You saw the group my "cheap" ATI cut, if it wasn't for the flier(my fault, not use to shooting a SA trigger) it'd have been 1" at 7 yards, that's pretty good IMHO. Also, my trigger is crisp and feels like about 5 lbs, I can't see spending another $2K for something that's already as good as I'd want it to be for $450.

Then don't. Others will.

[runfiverun]

i know what you are saying.
if you point it at something and pull the trigger and it works every time and hits the target you are happy with it.
i'm much the same way with pistols. i have 2 1911's and 2 9mm tokarovs, that's my whole pistol line up.
fixed sights,utilitarian,plain and robust.
drop them and kick them,put some oil on the slides once in a while, and shoot them sometimes.
i shoot 6" steel plates with them at 30-40 yds they fall down i'm cool with that.

i shoot more revolvers i am not a bullseye champion with them but i don't hesitate to shoot animals/targets/rocks with them within my limits.

rifles and shotguns are a different story.
i expect those to perform properly and even excell at what they do.

[jonas302]

No need to defend a cheap gun around here every body buys what makes them happy and I am positive nobody here would put you or your gun down other than in context with your op

On the other hand there are going to be some people wondering how fmj got into you gun...

[Jammer Six]

Milspec only, please.

Tighter or smaller 1911s are less reliable. After watching classes and leagues, I'll never own a boutique gun. The jams were all in the uber-tight Kimbers, Les Baers and Wilsons.

[MBTcustom]

I'm going to chime in here.
I'm a third generation 1911 owner/carrier I know just about every trick that you can do to improve/modify/accurize a 1911. I have shot top end and bottom end and I have made a bottom of the line Philipino *** shoot 2" at 25 yards and run like a sewing machine. My dad used to use his MKIV to consistently ring a 6" steel plate at 100 yards distance. So accurate/high end 1911's are in the blood.
However, I have a very odd way of looking at my pistols. I am of the belief that if I need to shoot something further than 10 feet away, I need a shotgun, and if its further than 10 yards away, I need my rifle. Pistols are for self defense and are intended as a way to fight your way to a bigger gun because a rifle is too heavy to carry around with you all the time:lol:. So, I need reliability first and foremost, followed by needing it to be on my hip at all times, followed lastly by accuracy. The darn thing could have a smooth bore for all I care, when I am in a defense situation mere feet from my person.
Reliability being chief objective, the most reliable 1911 is the one you shoot all the time. The more you shoot them the better they like it. I have a Chinese Norinco that I carry now. I just bought it a month ago, and I have already put 1000rounds through that slide iron. So far, one FTE and the rest were golden. I like those odds.
For SD, I want a sloppy slide and bushing, tight springs, and a precision fitted safety. The fancy 1911s are real good lookin, but your going to have to run the dog doo out of them in order to get them to eat anything.
Now, there is a place for accurate pistol shooting, thats where I high-jack the thread and start talking about the S&W mod27 and 29, but as far as using the 1911 for what it is intended for, my vote goes to a well broke in cheapy.
In fact, I bet my life on it all the time!

[btroj]

And a mil-spec only gun will never be as accurate as a tighter gun. This is where it is important to balance accuracy and reliability.

I also have decided that a large number of z1911 feeding issues are related more to magazines and ammo that to the gun itself. Not saying this is true in all cases but in enough cases that it can't be ignored.

[TNFrank]

I'm just glad to see that there are a few like minded shooters out there that feel as I do. That a good, basic 1911a1 copy is just as good for most of us "normal" shooters as a high dollar gun would be.
I have nothing against a $3000 1911a1 except for the fact that I'm not rich enough to own such a gun and don't feel the need to own one. My $450 ATI shots as good as I can and put a hole in the target where I aim it and does it each and every time I pull the trigger.
I've also owned Norinco, 1927 Sistema Colt(that I did a few mods too including a NM barrel and bushing) and a parts gun that I built up on an Essex frame that I had and all ran like champs and put the lead where I aimed them.
None of em' cost anywhere near $3000. I just don't get why someone would spend that much on something that'll work just as well in the $500 to $800 price range. Maybe I'm just too lower middle class to get it or maybe I just am too cheap to ever spend that much on a handgun. Either way I like my "cheap" ATI 1911a1 just fine thanks.

[gandydancer]

I just got a Rock Island arms 45 acp Tactical OTD for $550.00 and it shoots great as good as my smith 1911 and my buddy has the Mil-Spec model purchased 3 years ago for less then $400.00 and it shoots as good as some of the higher cost ones he's happy with it GD

[Bullet Caster]

I got a Norinco .45ACP a few years after I got out of the Marine Corps. My 1911 shoots as well as any other 1911 and I paid only $299.00 for it. It has served me well throughout the years and at the time I bought it I could not afford anything like a Colt, Kimber, ParaOrdnance, etc. My gunsmith friend polished the feed ramp and lightened the trigger pull some and gave me a set of nice rosewood grips. I've yet to spend any money on it, as it shoots fine as is. Maybe in the future I'll have the money to dress it up a bit. Fusion Firearms has some neat stuff and I'd like to find some U.S. Marine Corps grips to go on it. BC

[waksupi]

From what I have experienced with higher cost 1911's, you need to loosen them up to around milspec to get them good enough for a defense weapon. If you have an off the shelf 1911, a little mechanical aptitude, a couple hundred bucks at tops in parts, and Kuhnhausen's book, you can make a handgun that runs like a sewing machine for a lot less bucks. Less is more in a defensive 1911. Forget bells and whistles, strip it down as basic as possible.

There is a lady member of this forum that probably owns more 1911 pistols than anyone here, and I hope she chimes in on this topic.

[bob208]

well it has been my experence that the guys that buy the high end race guns do so to make up for not shooting as much as they need to. the guys i was beating with my old colt op. did not shoot much bought factory ammo maybe do a box a week. i would have that colt out 3 times a week. also i would shoot anythig rifle or pistol and muzzleloader. no amount of modification can make up for trigger time.

[TNFrank]

Has anyone else notice that within the 1911 community there are generally two types of folks. Those who just like a good, basic gun that normally runs under $1000(and much less most of the time) and those who only indulge in the higher end custom guns and turn their noses up at those of us who actually like the "cheap' guns.
When I question why anyone would "need" to spend $3000 on a 1911a1 when there are perfectly serviceable ones well under $1000 I always get the "Well, if you've never owned one you just don't know what you're missing, they're just so much BETTER then the sub-par mass produce guns." Well, for $2000-$2500 more they SHOULD be Better,LOL.
Funny thing is my gun goes bang, hits where I aim it and works just as reliably as their gun and I've still got money left over the dies, bullet mold, holsters, ammo, ect.
Some folks are just kind of funny about stuff I guess. I think weather they know it or now they're always trying to "one up" the other guy and that might be a big part of why they're willing to spend so much on something that's really such a basic tool to begin with.
I guess someone has to keep Wilson, Baer and Brown in business, long as it's not me I'm ok with that but heck, I'm even too cheap to buy boolits, I'd rather cast them myself out of wheel weights.LOL. It's a lot more fun that way, doing it myself.

[Don Purcell]

I remember Ross Seyfreid (IPSC world champ) saying the guys that had the full race tricked out guns didn't bother him, the guy that had a more or less stock 1911 with most of the blueing worn off and then you found out he just spent $1000 on primers THATS the guy you worried about!

[felix]

It all boils down the personal expectations. If the gun shoots better than you can, sell it for a profit. If you shoot better than the gun, buy the gun that shoots the intended objective. Folks confuse the words goal and objective all the time, and marketeers take these mental conflicts to the bank. ... felix

[TNFrank]

I been kind of sitting here having my morning coffee and thinking about this. It not only applies to 1911a1's but to most things in general.
There's a certain price point below which you'll get junk each and every time. I experienced this with Harmonicas when I started learning how to play a couple years ago. I went out and bought a $5 buck Hohner and thought it was ok until I got into a Hohner Special 20 that costs $30 bucks. Now I play Lee Oskar harps and they're around $30-$35 bucks depending on where you buy them and they play great. There's a certain price point with Harmonicas where if you spend less you're pretty much guaranteed to get junk. Normally anything under $25 bucks is a "no go" and if you spend more then about $50 it's really hard to tell where the extra money went. So somewhere between $25-$50 bucks will get you a good Harmonica that's very playable and will last you for years.
Same with guitars. I've played guitar most of my life until recently and having owned quite a few I can tell ya' that anything under $100 bucks isn't worth your time. Once you get to $250 you're getting into a guitar that'll have a good action, sounds nice and will be very playable. Then between $300-$500 you get some really nice, IMHO, guitars like the Yamaha FG730, the Seagull S-6 and the Epiphone Masterbilt guitars. Above $500 up to about $750 they are a bit better but for the average guitar player I don't think the extra money spend is really worth it unless you're a working musician and anything over $750 IMHO is just a waste of money unless you're a Pro who can actually take advantage of the extra craftsmanship.
Now we get back to 1911a1 clones. IMHO $400-$800 will get you a pretty decent gun. $800-$1500 might get you a better gun but weather you notice it or not compared to the $400-$800 gun is questionable. Anything over $1500, IMHO is a waste of money unless you're making your living with it and actually Need something that'll stand up to 20K rounds a year in competition shooting.
Most of us can be and are happy with the $400-$800 dollar 1911a1's that we've got and even if we had it to spend(which I don't) wouldn't really appreciate the difference in the higher priced gun. Of course all of this is JMHO, YMMV.

[btroj]

Frank, there are more than just those two groups. Many Kimbers are well under 2K and are very nice guns. Nicer sights, smoother trigger, better finish than compared to a "mil spec". I am in the group that appreciated things like adjustable sights and smoother triggers.

I have contemplated starting to shoot NRA bullseye pistol, if I do it won't be with a 500 dollar mil-spec pistol.

To an extent, why does it matter why a guy bought what he did? You are happy with yours, I am happy with mine. Isn't that enough?

I don't see a guy with a 300 dollar gun trying to justify his purchase by tearing down those who spend more as being much different coma guy with a 3K gun looking down on a guy with a mil-spec.

[Love Life]

Are you looking for a pat on the back? If so, I congratulate you on your purchase and luck with getting a good pistol at a competitive price point.

Do what I did and buy a revolver or glock. Then you don't have to have this discussion.

My 1911 purchases have run the spectrum through the years. To me there was an accuracy difference at 25 yards that was noticeable when comparing an el-cheapo to a more expensive 1911, but the difference was only bullseye noticeable.

Now to my accuracy gold standard. The human sil. target. If it will put all of it's rounds in the man sized target with me pulling the trigger, then I am happy. I don't care if it is the el cheapo or the kimber. Reliability is first and foremost. If it deos what I want then it stays. If not then I sell it.

My 1911 45 acp pistols were fighting hand guns, not target guns.

Oh. The 45 acp is the most boring cartridge. Ever.

[Jammer Six]

The tighter 1911s and the smaller 1911s are not as reliable as the milspecs.

No boutique guns for me.

[AndyC]

I actually won a steel match a few years ago against 40-odd shooters (yeah, some were very odd) - but the guy I beat in the finals had a 1911 race-gun against me with my stock RIA 5". He was actually a better and faster shot, but it took 3 shoot-offs to decide the winner - and I won in the 3rd because his pistol choked and mine didn't.

I'm not against the high-dollar guns, but I'll take reliability over fanciness any time.

[btroj]

Reliability has a different definition based upon the application.
For self defense and military use 100% reliability is king. No debate on that.
For a bullseye shooter a gun must be reliable enough to shoot the timed and rapid fire with no glitches. That gun also must be tight enough to shoot a 2 inch group at 50 yards. No mil-spec is going to reliably do that.

A straight mil-spec 1911 has it's place. So does a customized, accurized, tight gun. Two different applications, why would anyone expect a single gun to work for both?

[6bg6ga]

Quote:
Now we get back to 1911a1 clones. IMHO $400-$800 will get you a pretty decent gun. $800-$1500 might get you a better gun but weather you notice it or not compared to the $400-$800 gun is questionable. Anything over $1500, IMHO is a waste of money unless you're making your living with it and actually Need something that'll stand up to 20K rounds a year in competition shooting.
Most of us can be and are happy with the $400-$800 dollar 1911a1's that we've got and even if we had it to spend(which I don't) wouldn't really appreciate the difference in the higher priced gun. Of course all of this is JMHO, YMMV.


Sound like you are trying to convence yourself that the cheap gun is as good or almost as good as the more expensive gun. The bottom line is you get what you pay for. Cheap gun = large groups More expensive gun = tighter groups This is taking into consideration that you have the capability to shoot accurately. Some cannot dispite the amount of money spent on the gun.


Would I like to have a more expensive 45? Heck yes I would but I have to remember that I need other toys to play with and I have made the decision to live with what I bought.

It took a long time to finally get the bugs out of my stainless Colt 1911 officers model. At one point I was prepared to saw it into pieces because I was so disgusted. I even had some of the all knowing from this forum telling me that it wasn't possible for the smaller guns to be functional. One suggested that I remove the buffer because that was causing the problem. Well, horse hockey. Finally got the ramp at the correct angle and the guns shoots consistantly with no jams. It will also shoot 1.5 groups at 30yards. It was a Colt lemon straight from the factory but it finally shoots correctly. Its my carry gun and it has a smooth 3.5lb trigger pull. The sieg Tac Pack I own shoots better than the Colt does and goes without a hitch. Both guns cost less than $1K ea. If I were to shoot at 7yards I'm afraid there would be one big hole. Not trying to sound like a wet blanket but the accuracy leaves much to be desired in my opinion. I believe the more expensive guns are more accurate and base this conclusion on shooting a number of expensive guns.

[wv109323]

The thing that bothers me is the price tag of some of the customs. The $2000.00+ retail guns in my book are way overpriced. A lot of the accessories are not needed and sometimes make the pistol less reliable.
5 years ago I had built a new .45 Bullseye Target Pistol. My old pistol had untold rounds thru it and had been rebuilt twice. I shoot competition. I had built a pistol that is capable of winning the National Championship. When I am on my game it shoots to call better than my older pistol. With me buying the frame ,slide, Kart NM Barrel and internal parts and having a top Bullseye pistolsmith built the pistol I ended up with $1050.00.
No I would never buy a $2000.00 1911 platform gun. I would have a trigger job and sights put on a Mil-Spec pistol.

[Jammer Six]

If someone gave me a boutique gun, I'd sell it and buy two milspecs.

Oh, and ice cream. I'd buy ice cream.

[fecmech]

Here goes my 2 cents. I bought a Milspec a couple years back. The only thing I did from an accuracy standpoint was a bushing and the trigger. I have an accurate wad gun but was pleasantly surprised with the Milspec. The gun with good ammunition will do 4" or less at 50 yds. Now that won't get you to Camp Perry but you have to be a darn good shot before you need more than that in local matches. That gun is capable of high 80's and low 90's on the slowfire 50 yd target and possibles on the 25 yd timed and rapid. Personally I think a fellow is much better off with a $500. gun and $1500 worth of ammo. I have nothing against high end guns but you can't buy competence.

[TNFrank]

The thing that bothers me is the price tag of some of the customs. The $2000.00+ retail guns in my book are way overpriced.

Believe it or not I've been told by many people that they're not over priced, that it costs that much to have a 1911a1 Smith put his mojo into the gun at the tune of nearly 100 hours of labor. All I can say is he must be taking a lot of coffee breaks,LOL.
I know the stock answer is "Because They Want One" and I can live with that but I'm still puzzled as to why a regular Joe WOULD Want One. I just can't see it personally, I guess I'm just a cheap SOB or something,LOL.
Even if I hit the lottery and had the money I'd still probably just get a $800 bucks Springfield Armory Range Officer. It has all the "bells and whistles" that I like on a 1911a1 and none of the ones that I don't so it'd be just about perfect right out of the box. Of course I'd like fixed sights but I could probably live with the adjustable sights if I had to.

I'm just a down to Earth, practical kind of guy. That's why I handload instead of buy store bought ammo. That's why I love my Chevy and my cheap Vodka and Tonics and probably why I'm always broke. I guess God doesn't figure that I need much money because I'm such a cheap skate so he doesn't give me much money. LOL.

[mold maker]

[QUOTE=.

I'm just a down to Earth, practical kind of guy. That's why I handload instead of buy store bought ammo. That's why I love my Chevy and my cheap Vodka and Tonics and probably why I'm always broke. I guess God doesn't figure that I need much money because I'm such a cheap skate so he doesn't give me much money. LOL.[/QUOTE]


I too am a cheapskate. I won a tricked out fancy spancy 1911 A1 and kept it for 3 years. I rarely shot it in favor of other guns. I was offered a good price for it and bought 2 4-600 buck guns new. I took the rest of the money and managed 3000 primers and a keg of powder.
Now I'm really happy. I have 2 really reliable 1911s and a couple years ammo.
Boy it's good not to feel like the only shameful el-cheao-o.

[Joni Lynn]

I've had a lot of 1911's and still have many of them although a lot have been sent away for various reasons.
I've had Colt's that wouldn't fire twice in a row and spent a crazy amount to have a custom created only to have my base gun ruined and ended up with junk that was worse than the original gun in all respects. Another custom build came out pretty good but still not as well as I had hoped for.
My SA guns so far have been outstanding in regards to reliability and accuracy as have my Les Baer guns. Some of my Colt's have been as reliable but not as accurate.
I've never had a problem with the Kimbers I owned and still have a nice one.
The less expensive guns can work just fine and if they make the owner happy that's all that really matters.
It's similar to cars, a Corvette is a world class sports car but it's not a Ferrari or Aston Martin regardless of what anyone says. (I have none of any of those)
If it makes you happy that's what counts, happiness can be had in a variety of price ranges.

I've thought for awhile that RIA guns are the best bang for the $ available (and other similar 1911's from about the same place) Improvement in a good platform is like speed in a car, how fast do you want to go and how much can you spend. However, the higher the price the smaller the improvements will be.

No, I don't wish to argue the point with others.
I'm not good with tools and I don't do much work on my own guns. I'd butcher them for certain.

[Joni Lynn]

I'm probably about finished with buying 1911's but if I do adopt more of them, I'd expect the choices to be a RIA Match, Ruger, SA Range Officer, Wilson or another Les Baer.
I don't use most of the ones I have now so buying more at this point is making less sense all the time.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/Joni_Lynn/ColtWW1.jpg
This is my Colt WW1 reproduction and it's one of the most nicely fit up new Colt's I've seen in many years. I doesn't feed my 200 lswc load but it probably wasn't meant to. It's also the most accurate factory Colt I've owned. Is this a mil spec gun?

[Dale in Louisiana]

As others have said, it depends on what you're going to do with the thing. If it's for defense, then I think of the racks of pistols we used in the army, especially the ones we drew at Fort Knox to teach trainees how to shoot the pistol. The 1911 was the tank crewman's personal weapon, and we'd draw them for each cycle of trainees, and they were all functional, but certainly not accorded the TLC of target guns. And they'd hold 'minute of chest cavity at fifty yards all day. Malfunctions were rare. VERY rare.

The premium-priced, target-prepped guns have as much in common with John Browning's combat pistol as a shih-tzu has with a chocolate lab in a duckboat. JMB designed a combat pistol. followers-on turned it into a primped and prissy target gun. Two different arenas. Two different priorities.

I own a Springfield Armory bottom-tier example, as close as I could come to those racks at Fort Knox. I'm happy with it. I think JMB would be, too.

Dale in Louisiana

[Jammer Six]

Yes, Joni Lynn, that is a milspec. And to my eye, it's a beautiful one.

[Joni Lynn]

Thanks, I've never regreted buying that one.

[alamogunr]

I've admired the semi-customs over on the 1911 forums and have watched the prices go up over the years. I own 4 1911's, 3 Para Ordinance(I like the thick grip) and one Kimber Classic Custom. The latter was the low end Kimber about 10-15 years ago. The only failure I have had from any was when I failed to put powder in a cartridge and the primer stuck the boolet halfway down the barrel.

Two of the Para's are at least 15 years old, I'm guessing. One is a P12 that Cylinder & Slide did a reliability job on. No beavertail grip safety or any other external changes except for lowering the ejection port slightly. That is not noticeable unless compared side by side with an original. Including the cost of the original pistol, the total was under $1000.

If I were to get another 1911, it might well be a Kimber Super Carry. No reason except I like the looks of the Ed Brown bobtail .

I have accepted the fact that at my age(almost 70) I will never be a skilled shot with a handgun or rifle. I still like my guns though.

[L Ross]

Here's my take for what it is worth. I am happy we have custom pistol smiths. They employ skilled American workers. We are also blessed with companies such as Shiloh Sharps, C. Sharps, Freedom Arms etc. Good paying jobs for skilled craftsmen and women producing high end products we probably really "don't need". So I say it is all good. There is nothing wrong with simple pride of ownership in a somewhat frivolous "toy" for most of us. Also the tricks learned at the race level often end up benefitting production grade equipment later on.

Duke

[KCSO]

Building a 1911 Duty/Carry Gun

I get a lot of requests to build or customize 1911 pistols so I thought I would offer 40 years of experience as to what you need and more importantly DON’T need in a duty/carry gun.

First off choose a solid frame and slide to start with, I know you can buy cheaper 1911 guns and some of the basic cheaper 1911’s are OK but make sure the basis for you gun is going to stand the gaff for years of shooting. My personal gun was built on a Charles Daly frame and it has gone over 5000 rounds with no problems, but my TARGET gun is on a Colt frame and I fired it over 20,000 rounds in just a couple years. The difference is that you are on the mean streets and NOT on the target range. You are not going to need the super tight fit of a target gun, the bottom line buy the best you can afford.

Now the biggest thing I see is someone who comes in and wants a gun with bells and whistles for a carry gun. Wrong, wrong, wrong, every modification to a carry gun needs a good solid reason.

Let’s start with sights… Now I like Bo-Mar sights, on a target gun, but they have no place on a duty gun. When I started in the gun toting business I carried a Smith K38 and soon found out that adjustable sights just don’t stand up to rough duty. I think every one of us on the pistol team broke our sights at least once in a 5 year period. There is nothing more disheartening than going to the next call with a gun with no sights. You might not need them but it preys on your mind and the mind is where fights are won. In a 1911 carry gun I want solid snag free FIXED sights, just big enough to catch a quick sight picture if needed. This isn’t a plug but I think Novak got it right although I do have MGW’s on one gun and like them.

The MGW’s are snag free and still give an excellent sight picture. Also notice the slim rounded profile of the safety.


The next biggest mistake I see is EXTENDED anything! You neither need nor want an extended slide release, magazine release or extended ambi safety on your carry gun. I will go with an ambi safety for a lefty but I don’t like them and if you have one you WILL need a special holster. The extended slide releases tend to ride up in recoil and give you a false lock when you still have rounds in the magazine. Extended magazine releases can bump off in the holster and leave you with a loose or missing magazine. And unless you really need an extended safety the factory Colt 1911 safety of the modern type is big enough. You don’t want the safe to ride off in the holster and most extended safeties offered today are for target shooter and really don’t carry well in a holster. I routinely narrow any extended safety that I install, I want it big enough to hit fast and small enough to not ride off in any holster I carry the gun in.
Never put a compensator on a carry gun. Unless you plan to only get in daylight gun fights you don’t need the flash from that comp blinding you at night. “nuff said”


A completed gun for carry with magazines fitted and numbered to the gun.


Some people get hammer bite from the 1911 platform, if you do you need to have a beavertail grip safety and matching hammer. If you don’t get bit the only advantage to the beavertail is the ability to hold the gun slightly higher in the hand. This might be an advantage on the target range but has little value in the real world. If you carry concealed the beavertail will add to the overall dimensions of your gun.


This beavertail keeps me from getting bit but it does add length to the frame and tends to print under a light shirt.

You don’t need and don’t want a target range mag well on your gun. A gentle bevel job to speed magazine insertion is fine but an extended and flared mag well is just a lint catcher and once again adds unnecessary length to the grips. And speaking of grips plain flat panels are just fine, thumb rests, and finger grooves just don’t allow you to adjust your grip if needed. I also don’t care for real aggressive checkering on either the front strap or the mainspring housing. A fine checkering or stippling doesn’t hurt if you like it but it really adds little to a true combat gun. I carried a box stock Colt Government Model for over 10 years and never once felt I was going to drop the gun because the grip wasn’t rough enough. I did have a checkered gun that stuck to my gloves the first time I used it in the real world and believe me that checkering got dulled off in a big hurry.


A mild stippling to the front strap won’t hurt but isn’t really necessary for a carry gun, just make sure it doesn’t grab too much.


On the same note I see no use for a lowered and flared ejection port on a carry gun. Yes it keeps your brass in better shape but that’s for the TARGET range again, the factory Colt port was meant to keep **** out of the gun not to keep your brass shiny and un-dented, John Browning knew what he was doing and the military agreed for over 50 years.

In this same vein I don’t need or want a guide rod on a carry gun. If you can’t field strip the gun without tools it has no place in a duty holster. I have actually had to strip and clean a gun in the field before going to the next call and you won’t have a wrench and a paper clip or an Allen wrench on your belt, kiss is the magic word here. There is ONE essential for 90% of the modern 1911’s that you really need. Get a Cylinder and Slide mil-spec spring plug. You don’t want the plug flying loose in the field, that’s why they were on the GI guns and that’s why you need one.

The last item on the list in one of the most important… the trigger. You want a crisp trigger that fits your hand, long short or in between just make sure it falls to hand naturally. You don’t want a super light trigger on your carry gun and my duty guns are set for 4 -5 pound minimum and actually 6 pound crisp is no problem. Remember you may have to pull off your shot with cold, wet gloved hands and you want to break the shot when you have to and not a second sooner. I learned the hard way when my super smooth 3 1/2# trigger when off on me at a winter training session as I was trying to get a gloved hand into the trigger guard real quick. On the range I lost 5 points for a miss on the street I might have lost a lot more.

Do I sound like a stick in the mud? Maybe but I learned the hard way that John Browning got it right a lot more than I thought when I was a younker. Don’t fall into the target trap when you are building a carry gun.

[Certaindeaf]

I'm half expecting a movie entitled "The devil wore Kimber!". kinda the same thing.
The platform is lovely and when it works, that's a good thing I would think.
I use a Browning.

[shdwlkr]

Well I am in the less expensive 1911 group as I wanted a 1911 similar to military spec and the RIA fit the bill and was priced at an amount I could spend. I have another with the shorter barrel again RIA make because again price was right. I can fire over 600 rounds through them before I feel like I need to clean them.

In a fight it is much more important to know what your tool will do then whether you paid a few hundred or several thousand for it. Yes I have other 1911's all the low cost kind because so far for me I just don't see the need for a $3000 dollar pistol now $1200 and yes I have done that for a model I wanted didn't need it just wanted it.

In rifles I have spent more than I care to think about and there was a reason for doing so but I also have some of the cheapest made for just the same reason I wanted it.

I have found over the 50 plus years I have been shooting that the cost of firearm is not as important as how well the shooter can control what it does to achieve the desired result.
I have a .36 caliber black powder rifle I put a scope on and was told you could not throw a .350 round ball 200 yards well mine will; does that mean I will hunt with it at that range nope most likely when it gets to 200 yards there just isn't enough energy left to do much but poke a hole in some stiff card board.
Price is relative when talking about any thing I may like to have a nice big truck that costs $60,000 the next person might like to spend that money on a sports car does it matter nope as both buyers got what they wanted and liked.
I would like to get a remington 1911 and also a browning 1911 one day but that is all in the future as now college sucks me dry and what college doesn't get the child support does right fine in collecting.

[ErikO]

I would go with the Mil-spec gun. That way you can enjoy shooting now and no telling what you might come across for sale elsewhere. I bought a RIA a couple of years ago, been shooting it, and recently found a Colt gold cup at a small gun shop for under $800, and it was basically nearly new. Now, I am going to sell the RIA.
You might even come by a good Kimber, or custom gun for 1K or less. Things are "coming out of the woodwork" so to speak and there are good deals to be found at times

How much were you thinking about selling the RIA for? I might know a fellow...

[TNFrank]

Excellent post KCSO. I agree with ya' on everything you said. Only "bells and whistles" I want on a carry gun are the beaver tail grip safety with a Commander style hammer as I tend to get bitten by the standard kind. The Novak knock-off sights on my ATI are first rate, always loved Novak sights, thought they especially looked good on the 3rd Gen S&W semis. Can't stand extended slide stop, mag button or ambi-safeties. No reason for em', only get caught on stuff when you're in a hurry.
I do plan on putting a nice flute on my ejection port but I'll not lower it any, seems low enough "as is". Main reason for the flute is because I DO handload and don't like all the dings in my brass but other then that if I didn't handload I'd not bother with it.
I'll probably replace the fire control parts as needed(if ever needed) with higher quality parts since these are probably MIM but as long as they're working then they'll not get replaced.
Other then that my ATI does just what I want it to do which is put .45" holes in a target reliably and accurately. Can't see the need for anything more expensive for now.

[Joni Lynn]

KCSO, excellent post. Thanks.

[Jammer Six]

Okay, now, owing to a mouth that's far too big, I have to chime in. My mouth is the only thing that has stood between me and world domination.

I'm the opposite view. (Who would have ever guessed?)

I'm a milspec guy, and a loose guy. I'm strictly defensive, and won't own a game gun. I don't trust guns that are too tight, they'll start jamming from heat, dirt and fouling before a milspec will. Some at as little as thirty or forty rounds.

If you took that gorgeous Colt that Joni Lynn posted, I'd make three changes to it, and only three changes. I'd go for bigger sights, a short trigger and a beavertail with no bump.

No Novaks or "no-snag" sights, they eliminate racking options. Glowing sights eliminate an adjustment, and aren't necessary outside of a combat zone. If you to need shoot at unidentified movement in the dark, that's an excellent indication that you need to move. Nobody is going to grow old there. If you have enough light to identify your target, you won't need glowing sights.

No Series 80s. Short trigger. Beavertail, no bump. Good blade sights. Straight mainspring housing.

If you're really going to get jiggy with it, relieve the frame behind the trigger.

Parkerized, of course. Weapons should not reflect light.

I would start playing with 200 LSWC, and move the C.O.L. up and down to see if I could get them to feed.

I'd rather have an unmodified milspec than any of the boutique guns. If someone gave me a boutique gun, I'd sell it, buy two milspecs, the parts I wanted and spend the rest on lead, primer and powders.

Rant off, carry on. :D

[btroj]

I am different from Jammer. My 1911 is strictly a range gun. I want, and have, adjustable sights. I want a tighter gun for longer range accuracy.

My Gold Cup fits my needs quite well. It would not a be a good carry gun, too "shaggy". For a range gun it is great.


In the end it depends upon what your needs are. Get something to fill those needs.

[TNFrank]

This:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/Joni_Lynn/ColtWW1.jpg
IS a TRUE 1911, the way it was originally designed and adopted by the U.S. Military. The later guns(1926 IIRC) with the cuts behind the trigger, round main spring housing, ect. ect. is the A1 design.
That being said I too like the original flat main spring housing and long trigger(I've got large hands so it fits me better)better then the "improvement" that were on the A1.
The only real mods above Mil Spec that I like are beaver tail grip safety and Commander hammer because I get bitten otherwise. Also better sights are a must for any kind of accurate shooting especially with my nearsighted, 50 year old eyes.
That's the great thing about the 1911a1, there's enough parts availability so that you can turn it into just about anything you want it to be from mild to wild. That's why it's been going strong for over 100 years and will probably still be around for another 100 years.

[runfiverun]

In the end it depends upon what your needs are. Get something to fill those needs.

that describes many things in life right there.:bigsmyl2:

[Jammer Six]

The only question I'd have about that Colt is if it's a series 70, a series 80 or just vanilla.

I think it's on the other side of the slide, but I've never owned a Colt, I'm a Springfield - Rock Island kind of guy.

It's leaning on an interesting weapon-- it's leaning on a 1911 that has a beavertail with no bump. Those are kind of rare. :D

[TNFrank]

The only question I'd have about that Colt is if it's a series 70, a series 80 or just vanilla.


Well, since it's an exact copy of an actual 1911 I'd say it's a series 70 unless Colt did an update on the internals for "safety" reasons but then it'd not be 100% authentic.

[Joni Lynn]

The WW1 repro is made without a firing pin safety. It's as true to the original as Colt was able to make given modern manufacturing and current parts. It still uses some newer style parts than the original had inside it.

[Jammer Six]

That settles it.

I want one.

[Joni Lynn]

Good luck with that.

[Beau Cassidy]

Personally I would not consider Kimber as custom. Expensive, yes. Les Baer is more of a low volume production/semi custom line now. Brown is probably the most custom of the ones you listed. In my opinion true custom comes from someone like Uselton Arms or the smaller makers.

[6bg6ga]

Generally anything that comes out of a custom shop is considered to be a custom product. Kimber has a "Custom Shop" so technically if the gun is run thru there it is considered a "Custom" gun". But yes I see your point also in that others are considered MORE custom more hand fitted more reliable and just plain more

[TNFrank]

Unfortunately , too many times a stock gun that's given a "fluff and buff" is called a "Custom" gun when there's nothing that's been done to it that an accomplished tinkerer with a few of the correct tools and a good DVD on the 1911a1 couldn't have done and the price goes up on the gun by $500-$1000 because all of a sudden it's a "Custom" gun.
I'd rather get a lower end stock gun and do the fluff and buff myself. I know most of the points that need to be polished up from past experience and 1911a1's are such a simple design that it's not a big deal to pull one totally apart to work on it.

[Joni Lynn]

Like Kimber, SA and others, Colt has a custom shop but I wouldn't ever think to call those guns custom. I guess those guns receive just a little more attention than the run of the mill production stuff.
The 1911 WW1 repro is out of Colt's custom shop. As is the Special Combat Gov't model. (or so I was told)

[Crash_Corrigan]

I bought one of these when they first came available a few years ago. The first one had a nasty habit of firing off 2 or 3 rounds at a time by the third magazine.

I took it back to the gun store and they gave me a brand new one...no questions asked. That first gun came back to the shop 4 weeks later with a new trigger and sear assembly. The 2nd gun has fired over 6,000 rounds and has had about zero malfunctions other than a few duds which I had reloaded without powder.

It will shoot 1.26 inches at 25 yds from a rest with my crappy reloads. I wonder what it would do with some decent match ammo.

It cost me $568 out the door and has given me many hourse of enjoyment. It is reliable and come with most of the features that you will only find on a much higher priced 1911.

The trigger started out at about 3 3/4 #'s of pull. Now it is down to just about 3 #'s. It has very little creep and minimal overtravel. The sights are Heinie's and do not snag on my clothing when drawn from a holster under a shirt or jacket.

It came with two 8 round mags with a bumper on the end. I generally carry it with a colt 7 round magazine and two Chip Mcormick 10 round Power magazines as reserve.

The finish on the gun was worn pretty badly by the 3rd year and I had it reblued and added a decent set of Houge grips to it.

For an inexpensive out of the box gun it has proven to be a true shooter and reliable as I would want.

My other two autos are a EAA Witness Match Elite and a Browning Hi Power. Both of these are in 9 MM and both shoot only cast boolits.

The EAA is a mite heavy and big to carry around and I shoot the 1911 so much better than that Browning so the .45 gets the nod mostly.

If I needed the money the Browning would be the first to go.

[Joni Lynn]

I enjoy most any 1911 that is reliable, accuracy is a plus. As long as I have fun shooting I'm happy. Almost everyone I know that has a RIA mil spec style 1911 is thrilled with the way they run.

[shdwlkr]

Joni my RIA with a 5 inch barrel was fired by me to qualify for my CCW and then I loaned it to another ex soldier and it was fired by him to qualify and only hiccuped once in all that shooting maybe close to 600 rounds in just a few hours. It had been shot by me for almost another 600 hundred rounds before being used to qualify and no it was not cleaned in 1200 rounds and only one hiccup and that may have been the round as it didn't work the second time around by the instructor either. So yes I am very happy with my cheap RIA's yes I have two of them the other has a short barrel on it and is just as much fun to shoot.
It let me put all of my rounds in the kill zone even on rapid fire and did the same with the other vet who I let use it to qualify for his ccw. Even the instructor was happy with how it functioned yep another vet. Seems we just can not get away from those 1911's and he still instructs our special op individuals who are also using the 1911 much more expensive than mine.