.44 Hollow Base Wadcutters

[Jim Sheldon]

Anyone know of a source of bulk hollow base wadcutters in .44?

Not really wanting to pick up a mold and start casting them until I find out if they will work reversed in my Taurus Tracker M44C 4" .44 mag.

I plan on loading them to .44 special velocities using IMR Trail Boss. I've been having really good luck with hard cast SWC's and Trail Boss. Getting under 2" groups at 25 yards with the combo.

The hollow base full wadcutters work reversed in .38 special as hollow points but as just about everyone that's tried it has found out you gotta keep the velocity WAAAAY down or they tumble and aren't effective as hollow points.

I'd like to try the same experiment with some .44's and see where the tumble point (if any) comes out load wise.

Jim

[HDS]

This guy seems to have them for .44:
http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=70&products_id=280

Would have been interesting to try, hoping to get one of those HBWC molds by miha myself sometime in the future...

[Certaindeaf]

I've heard many accounts of reversed HBWC's not even coming close to that hoped for/touted.
Please do your research.
I'd load them regular and or use a SWC or SWCHP.
Anyway, good luck.

[ShooterAZ]

I've heard many accounts of reversed HBWC's not even coming close to that hoped for/touted.
Please do your research.
I'd load them regular and or use a SWC or SWCHP.
Anyway, good luck.

+1 Early in my reloading days I experimented with the Hornady 148 swaged HBWC seated backwards in .38 special. In wet phone books they just clogged with paper, and accuracy was not nearly as good as seated normal. Perhaps at .357 velocity they would expand better...not sure. I gave up on the idea.

[Echo]

I've heard many accounts of reversed HBWC's not even coming close to that hoped for/touted.
Please do your research.
I'd load them regular and or use a SWC or SWCHP.
Anyway, good luck.

+2. Good idea, bad results.

[HDS]

+1 Early in my reloading days I experimented with the Hornady 148 swaged HBWC seated backwards in .38 special. In wet phone books they just clogged with paper, and accuracy was not nearly as good as seated normal. Perhaps at .357 velocity they would expand better...not sure. I gave up on the idea.

Would you say there's any point to a hollow base in .44 if one wants a full wadcutter? Firing it that way would be my main purpose if I got an HBWC mold, probably turning it around just for fun though, at least once... Or would a heavy +250 grain wadcutter be a better option. I do already have an SWCHP mould...

[Jim Sheldon]

Gentlemen,
Thank you for all the disparaging remarks!

I have been reloading for nigh onto 40 years now, have done all the research and am well aware of the problems with running HBWC's backwards.

I only asked for a source in .44 and I got that plus a bunch of garbage from the rest of you.

You didn't even ask why I was doing the experiment, but mainly it's to show the locals around here that HBWC's DO NOT make good hollow point boolits for defense, contrary to the popular belief that some person resurrected from a (many years old) article in a magazine that he dug out of a trash can.

I teach formal reloading classes, and in just about every class this seems to crop up and no matter what I tell them, somebody in the class always manages to waste time and money testing it for him(her) self.

I figure if I have the results on target paper, maybe I can save a few of my students from finding out the hard way that, while they will shoot safely, they DO NOT normally work for defensive hollow points.

Thanks HDS for the source URL.

Jim

[bowfin]

Check Matt's bullets, as suggested in the original reply. He is a good guy here on the forum and also as a vendor, I know from experience.

I think the success or failure of the experiment might hinge on velocity and makeup of the alloy used to cast the boolit.

If I ever get the time, I was going to try this experiment by going up and down in velocity and up and down in alloy hardness, just for kicks.

As for people giving you their opinions and your prickly response, I think they were just trying to save you some time and money in reinventing the wheel. Please don't think harshly of us, we were only responding to the information (or lack thereof) given in your first post.

So I guess you could say either we didn't ask, or you didn't tell, and decide whether what was posted was garbage or not. Remember, your responses today materially affect any help you may or may not get in the future, Jim.

[Certaindeaf]

I usually try to not teach what does not work.

Didn't mean to seem disparaging with my first post.. my crystal ball must be cloudy.

[Jim Sheldon]

I usually try to not teach what does not work.

Didn't mean to seem disparaging with my first post.. my crystal ball must be cloudy.


I don't either, but when the question is asked in class and it almost invariably is, I don't tell them it's a dumb question and try to explain why it won't work.

My philosophy is, 1, never assume someone asking a question knows nothing about the subject as that person may be testing YOUR knowledge of the subject. 2, there IS NOT SUCH THING AS A DUMB QUESTION except the one you needed the answer to and did not ask.

It seems everyone these days automatically assumes that the person asking a question is a rank noob and they immediately start in on that person.

It also appears that Matt's Bullets is out of stock on the HBWC's in .430 so I'll email him and see if/when he plans on another run. My next class isn't scheduled until the end of April so I still have some time to come up with a few.

Jim

[mdi]

I re-read your original post and I would answer the same as those "dispariging" answers, prolly the same as you are attempting to do with your students.

"I teach formal reloading classes, and in just about every class this seems to crop up and no matter what I tell them, somebody in the class always manages to waste time and money testing it for him(her) self."

The fellows here just did what you want/plan to do, so ease up, and just ignore our "gargage". Surely with 40 years of reloading experience you'd know how to find bullets, or are you just testing our knowledge?...

[Jim Sheldon]

I re-read your original post and I would answer the same as those "dispariging" answers, prolly the same as you are attempting to do with your students.

"I teach formal reloading classes, and in just about every class this seems to crop up and no matter what I tell them, somebody in the class always manages to waste time and money testing it for him(her) self."

The fellows here just did what you want/plan to do, so ease up, and just ignore our "gargage". Surely with 40 years of reloading experience you'd know how to find bullets, or are you just testing our knowledge?...

Touche. prolly not enough coffee yet this morning - Woke you guys up though, didn't I?

:oops:

[Certaindeaf]

Would you say there's any point to a hollow base in .44 if one wants a full wadcutter? Firing it that way would be my main purpose if I got an HBWC mold, probably turning it around just for fun though, at least once... Or would a heavy +250 grain wadcutter be a better option. I do already have an SWCHP mould...

I'd say they are dead even when it comes to accuracy. Throw in the added fussiness/cost etc of the HB, I'd go with a non HBWC, at least for casting.

[Jim Sheldon]

I'd say they are dead even when it comes to accuracy. Throw in the added fussiness/cost etc of the HB, I'd go with a non HBWC, at least for casting.

With the .44 Magnum not traditionally being a "target" gun, per-se except maybe for Metallic Silhouette (wouldn't use true WC for them 250 yard shots anyway) I don't think I'd even bother to cast full WC's.

I've got a Lee 240 grain SWC mold and planning on getting one of Pat Marlin's plain base gas check makers in .44 so I can GC 'em if I really want to.

Pretty much of my non-jacketed loads in .44 are loaded with IMR Trail Boss and they come out to mid-range .44 special pressures & velocities so prolly don't need the GC's anyway. Only had the M44C Tracker for a couple months now, but haven't seen any leading problems with the TB loads and my range lead boolits.

Jim

[Certaindeaf]

The .44 and .45 are the perfect bullseye gun.. you actually have an advantage using one in that game.

[HDS]

Yeah my plans are using it for .44spl or lighter loads for plinking and punching paper for grouping. I essentially want to turn my 629 into a K-38. Though I admit plinking works just fine with SWCs too...

[Jim Sheldon]

The .44 and .45 are the perfect bullseye gun.. you actually have an advantage using one in that game.


Hadn't really thought of the .44 in that way but it sure makes sense. My main bullseye gun is a heavily customized (by me) Rock Island Armory 1911A1 and I also have one of their 1911A1CS compact Officer's Size that I use for CC. For cheaper 1911's their fit and finish is better than some I've seen coming out of Colt's custom shop. Not too shabby for guns made by Armscor in the Philippines.

Put a set of real pretty Raasco "Dymondwood" grips on my carry gun - prettied it up a bunch.

I have been shooting an ongoing postal match over on taurusarmed.net with the .44 and came in 2nd last month. Loading my 240 grain cast SWC's for that. Running 'em about 850 FPS and they group well with no leading at all.

Jim

[Blammer]

no info on the 44 hbwc's for sale.

my question is: If the 38hbwc's loaded backwards hit sideways and don't work as a hp. Do you think it hurts less or more? :D

[Jim Sheldon]

no info on the 44 hbwc's for sale.

my question is: If the 38hbwc's loaded backwards hit sideways and don't work as a hp. Do you think it hurts less or more? :D

Dunno, never had one hit me -- :veryconfu

I would expect the hittee's lawyers to have a field day with it though :bigsmyl2:

[45 2.1]

The hollow base full wadcutters work reversed in .38 special as hollow points but as just about everyone that's tried it has found out you gotta keep the velocity WAAAAY down or they tumble and aren't effective as hollow points. Jim

Hmmm........ Having molds for the 32, 35, 41, 44 and 45 caliber hollow base wadcutters i've not seen what you've said. They work fine when you know what your doing. I suggest you put some real time into it. It might help if you read some of Paco Kelleys articles on it also. Even Hornady 38 WCs work fine reversed when loaded right in special cases.

[429421Cowboy]

Just to mention some things i have read, to possibly aid you in your tests, now that we all know that we stand on even ground as to the concept of the R-hbwc self defense load...

I have no experence with this load in any gun, but i did read a very revealing article in Handgunner a few years back as to the best commercial carry load for a .38 snubby into ballistic gel, clothed and unclothed, as well as trying the reversed hbwc. The resuts were rather interesting in that the hbwc(hp?) expanded to silver dollar sized slugs that were very impressive in bare gel, but failed miserably in gel covered with two lavers of clothing like would be experenced in the real world. From my point of view it's all about using the right test to get desired result, if you see what i mean?

[429421Cowboy]

... I would expect the hittee's lawyers to have a field day with it... :bigsmyl2:

Boy i bet they would!
But that's sort of one of those deals your ma always told you about,somethin' about getting what you deserved?

[KCcactus]

Did you get your test done? I'm curious how you get them to tumble. I've shot a lot of 38 hbwc backwards over the years and never could get them to tumble. I must be doing something wrong. :roll:

I shot some last weekend. My target was taped to a cardboard box sitting in the bottom of a draw. The only one I was able to get to go through the target sideways bounced off the ground first. My groups were nothing to brag about. But, considering they were off-hand and quartering into a stiff wind, I'm satisfied.

I started with the 44 backwards hbwc at 25 yds, thinking longer range might make a difference. The sideways hole just above Midway at the bottom left of the target was a called flier that bounced. I added a some 38's at the same distance. A few of the holes are slightly oval, so I guess those were wobbling a little. Maybe if I move back to 50 yds ...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_197094fcbc5883ed41.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5485)

Then, I moved in to 15 yds. The groups improved, but mainly show that I haven't been shooting enough lately.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_197094fcbc54a3228b.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5483)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_197094fcbc5610edf8.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5484)

The 44s are from a MiHec 4 cavity .432 hbwc mold. From the picture on his site, it looks like Matt's bullets uses the same mold. The 38's are from a MiHec 4 cavity 360 hbwc. Both molds are works of art and are only slightly slower than a solid would be. I used target loads for both.

Here's a video I posted of my first shots with the 44, using a lighter powder charge than above. I edited out the one shot that missed low on one of the pieces of ice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t2A4wp1BeA

My internet search for a source of 44 hbwc is how I found this site. That was before Matt started his business and no one was selling them. I missed the group buys for the hbwc molds, but MiHec still had some extras.

I shoot hbwc backwards because they are fun with water filled targets and extremely effective on small 4 legged varmints and snakes. I've never loaded them the "right" way and probably never will. I have not tested them for self-defense. But, I know I wouldn't want to get hit by one.

[KCcactus]

91388

Time for an update. I came across data for magnum wc loads and decided to try it. I ended up with 6.0 gr of Unique in .357 cases with commercial swaged 148gr HBWC backwards. These were intended for and only used in a 20" Rossi M92 in 38/357. Alliant lists a max load of 6.4 gr Unique and a 148gr WC as 1465fps from a 5.6" barrel. They also list a target load of 3.3gr at 775 fps. I don't have a chrono, so I don't know how fast these were. The rifle seems to like them. I'm starting to get used to iron sights with bifocal contacts. The distance was 35 yds.

[C. Latch]

I teach formal reloading classes,

Huh. I didn't know such a thing existed. Neat.

[dudel]

The problem as I recall, was not that they would tumble, but that you'd blast a hole through the projectile, leaving a hollow cylinder of lead in the bore. Loaded the correct way, you get great obduration from skirt. Not sure how well it would work reversed. A great idea, but never worked too well for me. Loaded correctly, they were amazing target loads; reversed,not so good.

I suspect these boolits might be hard to find. If you just want to test the potential, how about "hollow basing" the boolits like some people hollow point them? Use a drill and open up a cavity in the base.

[KCcactus]

I was responding to the OP claim:

The hollow base full wadcutters work reversed in .38 special as hollow points but as just about everyone that's tried it has found out you gotta keep the velocity WAAAAY down or they tumble and aren't effective as hollow points.


When I found out that my Rossi M92 will feed them in 357 cases, I thought I would test his claim of tumbling at higher speeds.

I've never noticed any accuracy difference between HBWC backwards and solid wc. Commercial 38 HBWC are not difficult to find. The only commercially available larger HBWC I've seen are from a sponsor here. Mihec did HBWC molds in several diameters. I have 38, 44 and 45 now. The larger ones are more fun.

[dbosman]

The NRA certifies reloading instructors.


Huh. I didn't know such a thing existed. Neat.

[Forrest r]

Cast hbwc's are different from the soft commercial hbwc's. The soft commercial alloys had issues with skirt tearing & tumbling in the 18 3/4 trist s&w's snub nosed revolvers. 44spl hbwc's fired from a 44spl snub nosed ca bulldog.

91582

They also make an excellent target round for the 624, testing the same cast 220gr hbwc boolit with different seating depths in the 624.

91583

merry x-may, enjoy
forrest r

[dkf]

I have looked and the only place that I have found that sells the .44 HBWC is Matts. I'd like to pick up one of MPs HBWC molds sometime myself.

[WallyM3]

This is turning out just like my Himmelwright .44 search. (sigh, LOL)

[Forrest r]

This is turning out just like my Himmelwright .44 search. (sigh, LOL)

Those are hard to come by, got 1 for the 38spl & it turned out that someone altered the nose to a swc. So I'm going to drill it out & pin it to make a 90gr hbwc for the 38/357's. Should prove interesting.

Ya, the mihec hbwc molds are the cat's meow. I have the 38 & 44 hbwc mihec molds & use/shoot 1000's of those boolits every year.

If you have dies made you could swage your own hbwc's. Here's some 32cal (.312) 93gr hbwc's that I swage using home made dies & an arbor press. They started out life as a lee 311-91-1r cast boolit.

91614

Some 180gr hbwc's for a 41mag. Instead of grease grooves I'm planning on knurling them, still kneed to make the knurling wheels for a canalure tool.

91615

Know one swages hbwc's for the 41mag.

[GLL]

Here is a quick iPhone snapshot of MiHec's MP 43-395 HBWC which was originally designed by 45 2.1.. I shoot these in S&W 624s as moderate target loads and have not had a problem with tumbling. I admit I have never experimented with these bullets "reversed" though. I will give it a try !

http://www.fototime.com/4CA799194F681DD/standard.jpg

Forrest r and I seem to think along the same lines ! ;) ;)
Jerry

[Forrest r]

Where is the accuracy of these HBWC?

I've only used them @ the 50ft & 25yd line. They'll chew the x-ring out of the nra slow fire targets.

This is what's left of a Himmelwright bullet for the 38's (360302), someone turned it into a swc. I figured I'd try them as is & see how they shoot. Right now their a 125gr, the original design weighed 112gr. If they don't work out I'll turn them into a 80gr-90gr hbwc by removing the swc nose & adding a hb pin.

91741

It's not a 44 hbwc but it's a pretty interesting boolit. A 173gr hbswc for the 45acp or long colt.

91742

On my bucket list for this winter is a 180gr-200gr hbwc .452 swaging die. Hopefully I get the time to do a set.