Range report, Lee TL 200-452 SWC

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

A short while back I'd asked for a bit of help with a .45ACP load using Lee Tumble Lube 200 grain .452" Lead Semi Wadcutters. I'd initially cast these up with the help of RBStearn and have a good large batch ready to load.

I lubed the bullets with straight, undiluted Lee Liquid Alox coating them such that they had an "oily metal" appearance per a poster or two on here who'd had good success with them. Upon loading, I seated the bullets to the point the top lube groove was just inside the case and had decided to use 3.5 grains of Titegroup, as the flake powder is a bit cantankerous to get consistent loads with the standard rotor and I've never purchased a pistol powder rotor for my older model Hornady LnL powder measure.

Two weeks ago on Monday, I took these first loads to the range and while they shot reasonably well, they did not feed well in my wife's Officer's Model 1911. I sought some advice and elaboration from Dale53, who'd described a method he had for seating Semiwadcutters until the base of the cartridge was flush with the bump on the hood of the barrel. After getting Dale to elaborate, I loaded 5 dummy rounds and got good feeding results with the wife's pistol, so decided it was time to load some cartridges.


I then loaded another 50 rounds this past weekend, using 3.5 grains of Titegroup again along with the straight Lee Liquid Alox. We shot them Monday and the results were excellent. At 12.5 yards, the range we choose as an initial "awareness/encounter point" for self defense scenarios, the rounds shot just slightly high of point of aim and grouped well. My pistol is highly tuned, while hers is box stock. (Yes, I have plans to do a trigger job and reliability package once hers gets 500 rounds through it.) These rounds feed beautifully in her pistol and since mine will feed an empty casing, they fed well in mine.

Recoil was "snappy," but very comfortable and not overbearing, very much like shooting Winchester White box FMJ. Afterwards, while cleaning the guns, I was happy to discover the Lee Liquid Alox had "cleaned" a tiny bit of leftover lead streaking from where we'd shot some "blue lube" SWC's I'd bought back in the past at a gunshow and was trying to use up. So not only do the rounds shoot and function great, they are clean as a whistile as well. I think I've found my .45ACP practice load.

Thanks all for the help,

Dave

[looseprojectile]

What alloy?

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Straight wheel weight, nothing added.

[jawjaboy]

Did you try/use the Pro Auto disc to throw those 3.5 gr. of TG Dave? If so, how did it work out?

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

No, I didn't, as I don't have a Lee die set for .45ACP. I'll be setting up for 9MM next and I'll be trying it then.

[35remington]

Dave, I've also had good luck with wheelweights or close to it (12 BHN) in the 45 ACP. These shoot much cleaner than many of the hard alloys the commercial casters provide, and I don't need a brush after many, many rounds.

When the load doesn't lead, shoots well and functions, with mild recoil, what more is there to ask for? I like the sharp SWC cut holes in the target, too.

I would suppose, from my own use of Titegroup, that you are in the 700 f/s range with that load. That's probably as low as you can go and still have decent function with standard springs.

The Lee PAD meters Titegroup very well in my experience.

Good to hear of your success.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

35Remington,

Thank you for the feedback on the load as well as the good news on the Lee Pro Auto Disk with Titegroup. Perchance do you have a load range you'd recommend for the 9MM? I'm looking for loads that are "snappy" without being vicious. In other words, they'll function the gun with standardn springs and won't batter older, arthritic wrists.

It would appear I've arrived at my .45ACP load and merely need to produce rounds in quantity now.

Regards,

Dave

[35remington]

Dave, no I haven't, the 9mm for me is a whole 'nother animal when it comes to good results with cast bullets.

My loads have been better with a bit harder bullets and bullet lube grooves completely filled with a softer lube like Felix's blend or something of the like. The higher velocities/fast 9mm twist that's common makes the falling off the log ease of working up loads for the .45 ACP something I just don't see in the 9.

Can't see why Titegroup wouldn't be suitable as long as the speed/pressure was kept down a bit. My accuracy falls off substantially when I get try full 9mm velocities. I have had better luck with 115's/125's at less than 1000, and better with 147's at 900 and below. Since that's probably where you want to be anyway, you'll avoid some of the frustrations I went through. I just had to learn to shoot what the gun liked.

I have not yet tried a Lee tumble lube design in the 9, so I wish you luck there. My guess would be not to overdo things and accuracy may turn out to be acceptable.

[Dale53]

Dave;
I am happy to hear that the loading "prescription" is working well for you (I'm not at all surprised, but pleased nonetheless:mrgreen:).

Dale53

[Shiloh]

I use the 6 gang Lee TL 200 gr SWC over 3.8 gr of Bullseye for both the Colt 1911 and the S&W 625. Excellent accuracy in both guns. The 625 with .45 auto rim brass
seems to be slightly more accurate than with the moon clips. These are water hardened WW at about 725 fps.

Shiloh

[Drifter]

Dave,
One day this week I worked up a load for my .45 using Titegroup and the Lee 200gr. SWC (but not the TL) and thought you might be interested in the results. Using a Ransom Rest and Chronograph I started at 3.6 grs. and went up .1 grain at a time up to 4.7 grs (12 different loads). I found that I had two sweet spots that my pistol liked (smallest groups), they were 3.8 grs. with an average velocity of 731 fps and 4.5 grs. with an average velocity of 847 fps. I really enjoy shooting the 3.8 load, it's such a soft and accurate load. Your pistol may have different sweet spots than mine but maybe this will help you some.

:drinks: Drifter

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

35Remington,

I'm actually using the lee TC-358-105 for my 9MM. To date, I've tried 3.8 and 4.2 grains of Titegroup and while I got "round" holes and decent accuracy, the round was just a bit too hot for shooting with older hands. Recoil was pretty stout.

In addition, I saw some leading streaking in the barrel with this load, even with the Lars Carnaba Red lube I was using (Thank you for the lube RBStearn), so I suspect your observations related to velocity will be spot on for me as well. I intend to try 3.4 grains of Titegroup, perhaps even less next, metered in a Lee Pro Auto Disk, so we'll see where the sweat spot is.

In addition, I've picked up a two ganger Lee 358-125 RF mold to try out as well. Since I'm getting round holes, I suspect I'll find a "sweet spot" and be able to settle down with the 105 grain mold, but perhaps the heavier bullet will give better accuracy. You indication the slightly lower velocities will give me good accuracy is encouraging, as I'm only looking to plink and punch paper with these loads as well as practice. The 9MM is a European made gun with a very generous groove diameter of .357" so I've not had any luck with actual 9MM molds. I do have an assortment of 9MM cast boolits I intend to try, since I've finally located a good pistol range on my side of Atlanta. (Athens area)

Dale53,

I sure appreciate your help on that one. I'll be using that "prescription" for a good long while now. I'm suspecting it will work on 9MM as well, so I'll try it in that pistol also.

Shiloh,

Thanks for the information on the Bullseye powder. That'll give me another alternative powder.

Drifter,

What barrel length were you working with at those levels? My wife's gun has a 3" barrel, but my Commander and Widebody have 4" and 5" barrels respectively, so they are much more comfortable to shoot the hotter loads with.

Thanks all,

Dave

[Drifter]

I was using a STI Trojan with a 5" barrel.

:drinks: Drifter

[Cloudpeak]

Dave,
One day this week I worked up a load for my .45 using Titegroup and the Lee 200gr. SWC (but not the TL) and thought you might be interested in the results. Using a Ransom Rest and Chronograph I started at 3.6 grs. and went up .1 grain at a time up to 4.7 grs (12 different loads). I found that I had two sweet spots that my pistol liked (smallest groups), they were 3.8 grs. with an average velocity of 731 fps and 4.5 grs. with an average velocity of 847 fps. I really enjoy shooting the 3.8 load, it's such a soft and accurate load. Your pistol may have different sweet spots than mine but maybe this will help you some.

:drinks: Drifter

Drifter,

I was amazed at the difference in group size when doing test loads in .1 grain increments for 45 ACP loadings. From experience, I knew that variations in powder charge can have a great effect on rifle loadings but, for some reason, I didn't expect such different size groups with such a small variation in pistol loadings.

In the loadings I worked up with Clays and the Lee 200 gr. SWC (not TL) my best groups were with 3.4 and 3.8 grains (targets posted in: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=14236

I did two runs of the Clay's loadings from 3.4 to 4.0 grains in .1 gr increments. Some of the other groups were twice as big. What kind of groups did you get and at what range?

Cloudpeak

[Ricochet]

With charges this small, .1 grain is actually a fairly large difference.

[Drifter]

Cloudpeak,
It seems that most people test in .2 increments but in the testing I've done there can be a whooooooole lot of difference in .2, therefore I always work up loads in .1's. I looked at your targets and I believe I'm getting a little bit larger grouping than you are (haven't measured 'em yet) but I'm shooting from a Ransom Rest at about 77 ft. (don't ask why 77' but there's a reason). When I get a chance I'll try to post some pictures of the different targets but it will probably be the first of next week before I get the time (busy weekend).

Ricochet,
I think you're right on target (pun intended).

:drinks: Drifter

[Ed Barrett]

Cloudpeak,
I'm shooting from a Ransom Rest at about 77 ft. (don't ask why 77' but there's a reason). :drinks: Drifter

Isn't that some kind of metric distance that is used in Kentucky and Tennessee? <G>

[Drifter]

Metric, what's metric? We've never heard of metric in Kentucky! Well I quess I'm gonna have to explain the 77 ft. after all. When I installed the mount for the Ransom Rest I was planing on setting it up at 75 ft. but I had a tree and a building to contend with so for mowing reasons it wound up at about 77 ft. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
:drinks: Drifter

[randyrat]

With charges this small, .1 grain is actually a fairly large difference. +1 on that. I'll work up a load using .1 up to figured max then i'll do the same thing switching primers. Sometimes i can tighten a sweet spot group even more. That Lee Alox is some good stuff. I bought a bunch of 401-175s SWC pre lubed and they leaded my barrrel no matter what i did. So one day i decided to double lube them with some LLX and shazzam it helped a great deal-lube on top of lube. Now i cast my own(TL 401-175) for the .40 and use LLX No leading to date and very accurate. METRIC< Don't they use metric in NEW YORK CITY

[Cloudpeak]

I don't know if this thread is hijacked or simply "developing".

I don't have a Ransome rest. I used a folding-leg, metal sawhorse with a platform of particle board screwed to it and an army blacket rolled up:???:

I understand .1 is a large percentage variation at loads of 3.4-3.8 grain. My powder measure will drop within .1 gr plus or minus. So, it seems that one's goal should find a powder/bullet combination that groups very similarly within a range of charges if variations of just over .1 grain can cause such a difference in group size.

randyrat, I had a TL 401-175 mold. It dropped very accurate bullets and I had no leading with LLA & this bullet in my XD40.

Cloudpeak