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Michael J. Spangler
03-19-2012, 06:40 PM
ok guys maybe you can help me figure this one out

here are the specs

S&W 1911 5"
Barrel slugs at .452
boolits are 200 grain RNHP from an MP mold
cast from ww alloy
sized to .453
lubed half with javalena and half with BAC
loaded over 4.5 grains bullseye

i put 65 rounds down range just to test the overall of the round basically.

barrel was shiny except for the first 1/8" of rifling was leaded.

i did a little scrubbing with a bore brush and it was gone in minute or so.

i know i should have shot one lube then the other. it gives me two variables to look at. i did disassemble the gun in-between and noticed there was a touch of leading after the first round of boolits. i don't remember which i shot first.

do you think it's because of the very light load leaving me with poor obturation?

i'm going to load the next batch with 5 grains of bullseye.
100 rounds with BAC and 100 rounds with javelina to see where this leads me.

thanks in advance for the help guys

geargnasher
03-19-2012, 07:22 PM
Your gun probably has no throat and is shaving a bit of lead off off the driving bands as they enter the barrel, common problem with many 1911s and other automatics. You can monkey with the powder charge and type some and it might go away, get worse, or stay the same. As long as it isn't affecting accuracy or leading more than 1/2" of the bore after a couple of boxes I'd say you don't really have to "fix" it. This is once instance where your leading probably isn't due to gas leaks, but pure abrasion/shaving and the hot gas and pressure is ironing on the shaved boolit bits.

Get a PURE copper Chore Boy or O'Cedar scouring pad (check it with a magnet) and cut patches out of it to wrap around your bronze brush. Three or four strokes ought to clear out any minor lead fouling that you have.

You can also try something that I don't normally recommend because it often makes gas leaks and makes the problem worse, but try sizing exactly to groove diameter. Do a search for member BD and posts containing ".451", he has a lot to say on the subject and I believe his advise might well apply. If the .001" over groove diameter boolit is shaving, it might not if it's sized a tad smaller. Or it might only shave on the side that hits the edge due to gravity, extractor pressure, firing pin pressure, etc. It's probably worth a shot to get a smaller sizer, and verify your gun's dimensions with pure lead slugs and a real, 0-1" C-clamp type micrometer. .452" is unusually large for a .45 ACP, but I do have a Kimber who's groove diameter is a couple of tenths over that so I wouldn't say it's impossible. You may find you need a .451" sizer.

Check between the end of the chamber and the rifling and see if there is and in-between, often the lands just start abruptly at the end of the chamber with no taper. Cast boolits need a slight funnel here so they swage into the rifling vs. slice into it like peeling a potato. Field strip your pistol and remove the barrel, then take one of your unsized boolits, oil it, and tap it into the barrel from the chamber end with a brass rod until it's about 50% engraved, then flip the barrel around and tap it back out. If the engraves peel back some lead or the bands shave rather than swage down to groove diameter cleanly, there's your problem. Either size the boolit smaller or make a throat. A COMPETENT gunsmith familiar with shooting cast boolits can "throat" the gun so it has a gentle taper from chamber mouth to bore, or I can tell you how to do it yourself in about five minutes and zero dollars if you're reasonably handy with common tools.

But try sizing smaller first, I know it goes against the usual advice, but in this one instance it might fix your problem.

Gear

Michael J. Spangler
03-19-2012, 07:38 PM
awesome info.

i did actually slug the barrel and size with a nice c clamp style micrometer. it was .452

how does one normally go about testing to sizing without investing in another sizer die? should i see if someone local has one on hand?

from what i could see it is an abrupt shoulder at the end of the chamber. I think i'll try to size some smaller and see how that works. if not maybe consult my gunsmith? i guess the throat in the chamber can't really hurt one way or another right?

can i slug the barrel like that with a WW boolit? or do i need pure lead?

i really need to start working on a pure lead source. it's been all WW for me right now. i guess that's a good problem to have right?

Thank you Gear

felix
03-19-2012, 07:43 PM
No sizing die is the same, unless checked at the maker's bench before delivery using the lead type desired. Nobody except our folks on the board will guarantee a die when given several boolits in advance to play with. ... felix

sig2009
03-19-2012, 07:50 PM
I had that problem once. I shot a half dozen fmj rounds down the barrel after I got leading and it cleaned it out everytime!

nicholst55
03-19-2012, 07:51 PM
What gearnasher wrote about 1911 .45 ACP chambers and throats is absolutely correct. I have a high-dollar, well-known barrel in one of my 1911s that suffered from that malady. It's simple to correct once you know that it exists, but until then it can be baffling.

Michael J. Spangler
03-19-2012, 07:51 PM
This is a die from lathesmith
It dies in fact size right to .453 luckily. He did an amazing job
I'll start with trying to find a .452 die and see where that gets me.

garym1a2
03-19-2012, 07:51 PM
BAC is a great lube, 4.5BE is not too hot nor too mild for a 200gr boolit. I run 3.8 to 4.0 BE with a 200 SWc Lee. I like the fat lube groove. I size at .452 for my Kimber, 50/50 lube works also. If I where you I would stay with your current lubes and load and vary only the size as mentioned above.

Is hard to tell what solves your problem if you change 3 varibles at once.

geargnasher
03-19-2012, 08:18 PM
If you slugged your throat with anything other than a dead-soft, pure lead slug, your measurement will not be correct due to springback. Both the barrel and alloyed lead boolits have some flex to them, the barrel will expand slightly like a snake swallowing an egg as the slug is pounded through it and the slug itself will compress and spring back due to the grain structure of most boolit alloys.

So your barrel might really be more like .451" if you used a boolit cast from wheel weights to slug it. If you used pure lead for a slug ignore this and get a die designed for your preferred alloy and your actual groove diameter. Lathesmith will make the die the correct actual size to net the correct actual boolit size with your specified alloy.

One more quick check, pull a seated/crimped boolit and measure the diameter of the bands again to eliminate the possibility of case swage. If you loaded your boolits shortly after casting and before they had aged a couple of weeks, they might still be too soft to resist being swaged undersized when seated. This can also cause your problem (but I don't think it is based on the info you gave), so eliminate that possibility also before spending the bucks for a die.

I can send you some .452" boolits to try if you like, but they'll be a different design.

Gear

runfiverun
03-19-2012, 09:53 PM
some reloading dies have been used to squeeze down loaded rounds for trials before.
stuff like the sizer die,or a taper crimp die.
i didn't even have a sizer for my 41 for a long time till i found a used one cheap.
i just loaded them and run them into the sizing die again enough that they would chamber.
oddly this turned out to be a thousandth of an inch.

Michael J. Spangler
03-19-2012, 10:47 PM
the slugging was done with bobj and dukeinmaine with a dead soft pure load boolit.

the boolits are a mix, some a week old some a few weeks old. the case mouth measures .470 ish after loading. i'm going to have to load a few and pull them to see what i have for dimensions then.

i left my bullet puller at my workshop a few months back (had to pull 500 wanter damaged .45 acp for a friend) i'll grab it tomorrow to do the pulling.

thank you for the offer gear, i'll let you know if i can't get it done locally with some of my boolits to try to keep the variables down as much as possible.

good idea gary. i'm going to stick with some of the boolits i have and load them with a boost in charge to see if that helps. what alloy do you use for the light BE loads? i'm using straight wheel weights. maybe you have some 50/50 alloy that allows better obturation?

runfiverun i'll check out my dies to see if there's an issue there. i just bought a new taper crimp die (lee) so i didn't have to seat and crimp these loads in the same die.

thanks again guys. i'll keep you updated

milprileb
03-20-2012, 01:33 PM
Mike,

I would get a Lee sizing die in .452 and run those .453 bullets through it and then shoot with one lot w/ BAC and other lot with other lube. I bet .452 will be the trick to stop the leading. Now, which lube works best and for accuracy is a test proposition. If the Lee die does not fix your problem, its a common size .452 and you can sell it and recoup. If it does work, you can get the right die for your luber sizer in .452, and sell off the Lee. Or continue to lube/size at .453 and then run bullets thru the Lee to move them down to .452.

If by some weird chance you think you need .451 dies, email me and you are free to test mine out, they are Lyman. If they work, we can work out a deal, if not , send back . They don't work for my 1911 barrels... but .452 sure does !

Larry Gibson
03-20-2012, 02:10 PM
Bullets are probably too large (.453) for the throat as mentioned. I would add 2% tin to the WWs as what you think is leading may be antimonal wash since it cleans out so easy. Also sizing to .452 or even .451 will help. Both the Javelina and BAC are excellent lubes (I use both) I shoot lots of 190 - 205 gr SWC cast of the above, sized .451 and loaded over 4.3 or 5 gr of Bullseye. I should them out of 3 M1911s, a M1917 with a M25 6 1/2" barrel, a 10" Contender and a 16 1/4" barreled M98 Mauser. I get no leading at all.

BTW; the 2% tin is for more than just "fill out" of the mould. It combines with the antimony/lead to make a much better ternary alloy. The BHN is 14 - 17 but mostly 16 - 17 BHN if AC'd and seasined for 10+ days.

Larry Gibson

geargnasher
03-20-2012, 02:24 PM
"barrel was shiny except for the first 1/8" of rifling was leaded."

Not antimony "wash" if I'm reading that right, though adding some tin is always a good idea and helps the alloy stay together. I'm thinking if it was true antimony wash, and for some reason was only present on the first 1/8" of the rifling, I doubt he would have even noticed it. Lots of autos do this for one reason or another, mosty due to no throat. Revolvers with rough forcing cones do it to, just on the tapered part of the lands themselves, I'm sure you've seen this. Try some .453" boolits in your 1911s sometime, Larry, you'll see the problem he's having.

Gear

fredj338
03-20-2012, 03:16 PM
Sizing smaller is only likely to make things worse. I run 50/50 range lead & clip ww, about 9,5BHN, I get little to no leading in a variety of 45s. Your load is pretty soft, likey too low pressure for the ww alloy. Cut it w/ some pure lead or range scrap & size & shoot as normal & see if it doesn't get better. You also may be overcrimping @ 0.470" w/ a leager lead bullet. Back off the crimp a bit too. I agree, stick to changing one variable @ a time.

garym1a2
03-20-2012, 03:38 PM
My 45 and 40 loads that run in the 820 fps range I run pretty much mixed range scrap and Wheel weights with a dab of SN added.

Only the 9mm (1100fps) and 357 do I run a much harder mix of straight wheel weights with 2% SN added.



the slugging was done with bobj and dukeinmaine with a dead soft pure load boolit.

the boolits are a mix, some a week old some a few weeks old. the case mouth measures .470 ish after loading. i'm going to have to load a few and pull them to see what i have for dimensions then.

i left my bullet puller at my workshop a few months back (had to pull 500 wanter damaged .45 acp for a friend) i'll grab it tomorrow to do the pulling.

thank you for the offer gear, i'll let you know if i can't get it done locally with some of my boolits to try to keep the variables down as much as possible.

good idea gary. i'm going to stick with some of the boolits i have and load them with a boost in charge to see if that helps. what alloy do you use for the light BE loads? i'm using straight wheel weights. maybe you have some 50/50 alloy that allows better obturation?

runfiverun i'll check out my dies to see if there's an issue there. i just bought a new taper crimp die (lee) so i didn't have to seat and crimp these loads in the same die.

thanks again guys. i'll keep you updated

Larry Gibson
03-20-2012, 03:38 PM
Gear

Bullets are probably too large (.453) for the throat as mentioned.

Thought that was agreeing with you???

I have seen plain WWs "lead" the barrel right in front of the leade many, many times. So do "hard cast bullets with a high antimonal content. Many times the "wash" is easily confused with leading, it could be either is the problem.

Many years back when cast or soft swaged bullets were most often used in matches a special "scraper" was made and sold so a match shooter could keep the lead build up out of tyhe front of the chamber. As you (I think) have mentioned the oversized bullet could very well be leaving lead in that area to be smeared into the 1st part of the barrel. That lead builkdup would also prevent tightly fitted match M1911s to keep from locking up.

Corect sizing of the bullets should eliminate the leading if that is the problem. The addition of the tin does make a better ternary alloy and will eliminate the antimonal wash, if that is the problem. Doing both will be a "win - win" situation of the OP.

I think we are in agreement here.

Larry Gibson

jsizemore
03-20-2012, 04:45 PM
Sizing smaller is only likely to make things worse. I run 50/50 range lead & clip ww, about 9,5BHN, I get little to no leading in a variety of 45s. Your load is pretty soft, likey too low pressure for the ww alloy. Cut it w/ some pure lead or range scrap & size & shoot as normal & see if it doesn't get better. You also may be overcrimping @ 0.470" w/ a leager lead bullet. Back off the crimp a bit too. I agree, stick to changing one variable @ a time.

This solved the problem in my barrel. I also had to give up shooting range brass and go to 1 lot of brass to get consistent boolit seating and crimp.

geargnasher
03-20-2012, 04:55 PM
This solved the problem in my barrel. I also had to give up shooting range brass and go to 1 lot of brass to get consistent boolit seating and crimp.

If I had a 1911 that was that picky I'd trade it the next day or fix the throat. Not much fun having to segregate brass for a .45 ACP, one of their great benefits is being able to shoot mixed range trash brass and junk alloy very well. I've never trimmed a .45 ACP case, either, and have some that's been shot more times than I can count, maybe two dozen in some instances. I also never crimp .45 ACP, I just set the seat/crimp die to barely iron-out the bellmouth, it ends up about .474" most of the time and lets me seat and crimp in one operation on the Lee three-station progressive with no variances due to brass thickness or length.

Gear

milprileb
03-20-2012, 05:57 PM
If I were to pick a few sides on topics addressed:

I would go with Larry Gibsons comments and approach
I would follow Gears comments .. never saw a 1911 that finicky but I would
fix it or replace barrel if I owned such a pistol. I got 12 of them and they all like
.452 sized cast bullets, all like NRA formula, Whitelabel Carnuba Red or BAC.

The offer stands if the OP tries .452 and it fails, and still wants to borrow my .451 Lyman dies

45acp is so forgiving and easy to load caliber, leading is rarely a issue for me. I did try .451 out of curiosity and went back to .452 as I did get leading with .451.

jsizemore
03-20-2012, 07:20 PM
If I had a 1911 that was that picky I'd trade it the next day or fix the throat. Not much fun having to segregate brass for a .45 ACP, one of their great benefits is being able to shoot mixed range trash brass and junk alloy very well. I've never trimmed a .45 ACP case, either, and have some that's been shot more times than I can count, maybe two dozen in some instances. I also never crimp .45 ACP, I just set the seat/crimp die to barely iron-out the bellmouth, it ends up about .474" most of the time and lets me seat and crimp in one operation on the Lee three-station progressive with no variances due to brass thickness or length.

Gear

Your probably right. I probably should get rid of this *** Caspian with the Kart barrel that shoots nice groups and go get the feed anything SA that couldn't hit @#$%.

Michael J. Spangler
03-21-2012, 10:49 AM
Ok I'm going to take some pics
Tonight. Then I'm hopefully going to get it super clean and head to the range with 50 rounds of each lube. I'm going to bump the load to 5 grains of BE first to see if that solves the problem.
I'll shoot both batches the. Inspect and photograph in between

If that doesn't work I posted on a local forum to see if anyone has a .454 and .452 die to lend me. I'll move to the sizing variable next

I'm going to break her down to if ht and get a closer inspection of the rifling to see what the throat is like.

Thanks for the help guys

Michael J. Spangler
03-21-2012, 06:49 PM
alright i just pulled a few loads and they seem to be squished down a bit my the crimping.

i need to go back to the crimp die and adjust it, that should keep my sizing spot on. maybe the .453 will work after all.

they measured .452 and .4515 so that's probably the culprit. if not i'll look in to some .454 dies as the .452 doesn't get the job done apparently.

oh and they they measure .451 and .452 at the base though, and less at the front of the driving band where the mouth of the case rested. definitely over crimped. should i be shooting for .453 in a pulled round at the case mouth area? or just most of the boolit and not necessarily the case mouth?

i'll strip down my 1911 and do the thunk test with the barrel till i find a crimp that works without ruining my boolit

geargnasher
03-22-2012, 01:53 AM
Your probably right. I probably should get rid of this *** Caspian with the Kart barrel that shoots nice groups and go get the feed anything SA that couldn't hit @#$%.

I didn't say that, I said what I would do. If you want to segregate brass for your race gun, very well. If I want a target 1911 I'll build one in .38 Super, which will embarrass the best .45 ACP around. I have no use for a "*** SA" either your assessment of the accuracy of one is correct, especially since it's hard to keep shooting it when peices of the web of my hand keep getting ripped out and thrown over my my shoulder. My Kimber Tactical Pro II will hold 3" groups at 25 yards from the bench all day, I mean as long as you want to keep loading and shooting it, with mixed brass and mixed scrap alloy, good enough for me and what I need/expect a 1911 to do.

Gear

Longwood
03-22-2012, 03:05 AM
If I want a target 1911 I'll build one in .38 Super, which will embarrass the best .45 ACP around. =]'

Gear

You got that right.
My experiences with 45 1911's back in 62 when I could get a new one in cosmoline for $20 .
I shot one friend bought and decided it was not worth the $20.
One was given to me in about 1968 so I fired a few boxes but I never cared for it and gave it to a friend for 1/2 cord of wood that he wanted $30 for.
I got another free one made by the sewing machine company that had been chrome plated. In 1986 I sold it for $350 at a gun show to a nice looking kid that then showed it to his, obviously gangster, buddie/boss.
But then,,,, I bought a Officers model 38 super that had been put together by someone. It had a new plumb colored aftermarket frame and I got it for a small bag of medicinal herb.;-)
Since it was already Bubu'd but shot surprisingly well, I decided to buy a trigger job instead of doiung it myself as I usually do to every thing I own. The smith that no one ever see;s actually came out front and talked to me about doing a accuracy tuneup and I went for that also.
Sweet,,, My goodness,,,, this gun shoots pretty well indeed!
About five years later I moved near 29 Palms California where Barsto barrel's are made so for the heck of it, I let him put one in.
He gave me a ration of bull about how I had damaged the guides by modifying them myself but after I told him that I was prepared to replace the after market frame as I experimented and would gladly shoot it against his anytime, he settled down. My new friend that had known him for years, shaking his head at him, may have had something to do with that.
All I can say is,,, I like some 1911's now. Did not for many years.

Longwood
03-22-2012, 03:09 AM
``


If I want a target 1911 I'll build one in .38 Super, which will embarrass the best .45 ACP around. =]'

Gear

You got that right.
My experiences with 45 1911's began back in 62 when I could get a new one in cosmoline for $20 .
I shot one my friend bought and decided it was not worth the $20.
One was given to me in about 1968 so I fired a few boxes but I never cared for it and gave it to a friend for 1/2 cord of wood that he wanted $30 for.
I got another free one made by the sewing machine company that had been chrome plated. In 1986 I sold it for $350 at a gun show to a nice looking kid that then showed it to his, obviously gangster, buddie/boss.
But then,,,, I bought a Officers model 38 super that had been put together by someone. It had a new plumb colored aftermarket frame and I got it for a small bag of medicinal herb.;-)
Since it was already Bubu'd but shot surprisingly well, I decided to buy a trigger job instead of doing it myself as I usually do to every thing I own. The smith that no one ever see;s actually came out front and talked to me about doing a accuracy tuneup and I went for that also.
Sweet,,, My goodness,,,, this gun shoots pretty well indeed!
About five years later I moved near 29 Palms California where Barsto barrel's are made so for the heck of it, I let him put one in.
He gave me a ration of bull about how I had damaged the guides by modifying them myself but after I told him that I was prepared to replace the after market frame as I experimented and would gladly shoot it against his anytime, he settled down. My new friend that had known him for years, shaking his head at him, may have had something to do with that.
All I can say is,,, I like some 1911's now. Did not for many years.

Michael J. Spangler
03-24-2012, 06:47 PM
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll105/MJSpangler/06be33a2.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll105/MJSpangler/2c197769.jpg

This is the result

I fired 50 of each lube. Cleaned In between. This was a handful of extras that produced this leading. the leading after 50 looked like what is seen on the right side in pic #2, except it was almost all the way around the barrel

It seems to be less now that I got the crimp set up right still a little there though.

In between the 50 rounds it only took about 8 or 10 passes with a chore boy wrapped bronze brush to clean the leading

So should I try some .454 boolits now?

geargnasher
03-24-2012, 07:27 PM
EEWWWWW, YUK!

That's nasty. A pic is worth a thousand words, though, glad you posted. You do not have a lube problem, you most likely have a massive shaving problem.

Note that the throat has a sharp step in it all the way around, right at the base of the lands. This is what I was talking about removing with a lap. The throat between the end of the chamber (headspace ledge) and the beginning of the grooves is a cylinder with a sharp edge leading up to the grooves, very evident in the second picture. Any boolit you fire through there that is larger than the groove diameter will literally shave off the excess and smear it all over the grooves.

Clean all that mess out of there again with your bronze brush/100% pure copper Chore Boy scouring pad combo, patch it clean, and take one of your sized boolits and drive it into the lands about halfway with a brass punch, then drive it back out. I'll bet you have little tin-foil looking shavings everywhere, and that will be your problem. Either get an aftermarket barrel or fix this one, you're probably going to have nothing but fits with this one the way it is.

Gear

Michael J. Spangler
03-24-2012, 07:33 PM
so this isn't a sizing problem? stepping up or down .001" won't fix it?

i need to email my gunsmith then.

geargnasher
03-24-2012, 07:40 PM
I don't know if it will or not, perhaps it's worth a go, but if it were mine, I'd fix the throat anyway so it would be less likely to lead further down the barrel from gas leaks due to insufficient interference-fit with the smaller boolits. IOW you might fix one problem by sizing smaller but create another one in the process.

Gear

Michael J. Spangler
03-24-2012, 07:50 PM
i'm going to cast a bunch tomorrow and send to a local guy who can size and lube a bunch for me both in .452 and .454 to see if that helps. if not i'll head to the gunsmith and see what he can do.

either way leading or not, its a lot of fun trying to figure this all out and spend time shooting

runfiverun
03-24-2012, 10:43 PM
i think your boolit is entering the bbl crooked.

BD
03-24-2012, 10:56 PM
Looks like a throating reamer is called for.
BD

Larry Gibson
03-24-2012, 11:06 PM
so this isn't a sizing problem? stepping up or down .001" won't fix it?

i need to email my gunsmith then.

Yes you need to size at .451 or .452 at the most. Also adding 2% tin to your WW alloy will help.

Larry Gibson

geargnasher
03-24-2012, 11:14 PM
i think your boolit is entering the bbl crooked.

Extractor pressure can cause that, especially leading on the lower RH side of the barrel, but I maintain that if the barrel was throated properly at least it wouldn't lead with the right size boolits, and then he could use the biggest boolit diameter that would chamber to help it pilot-up and get a straight start.

Gear

runfiverun
03-25-2012, 02:57 AM
that would help.
but if the cases are short enough to be pulled [or pushed by the firing pin] to the side like that.
the bigger boolit would help that situation.
i doubt you'll find cases long enough to headspace on the mouth ,so using the boolit could help fix the problem.

btroj
03-25-2012, 07:41 AM
I was, at one time, having a similar problem. The leading wasn't quote that bad but enough to bother me. BassAkward suggested taking some of the cast, sized, and lubed bullets I was using and giving them a light tumble in LLA. Stopped the leading entirely. Made me wonder if my problem was a gas leak before the bullet sealed the barrel.

I always wondered if a fatter bullet would have also fixed my problem. I jus didn't have access to a .453 sizer and wasn't interested in buying something on a whim. This situation makes me wonder all the more if that wasn't the better solution.

Michael J. Spangler
03-25-2012, 08:34 AM
I'm going to cast some more today and try the .452 and .454 sizing just to see if this helps. Seems like I need to ream the barrel to get the job done. This will give me something to do in the meantime though.
Thank you all for the help and for those that pmed also. I'll keep you updated on my progress. Going to email my gunsmith today.

Michael J. Spangler
03-25-2012, 08:36 AM
Larry: my barrel slugs at .452. Should I go down as far as .451? Also can you explain the addition of tin helping? Does that help with obturation? Thank you

geargnasher
03-25-2012, 12:16 PM
Btroj, I think the LLA trick works in many instances by filling in things like sharp steps in throats and making a better path for the boolit. It might help here, too.

Gear

geargnasher
03-25-2012, 12:19 PM
I'm going to cast some more today and try the .452 and .454 sizing just to see if this helps. Seems like I need to ream the barrel to get the job done. This will give me something to do in the meantime though.
Thank you all for the help and for those that pmed also. I'll keep you updated on my progress. Going to email my gunsmith today.

I still want you to try tapping a boolit into the rifling from the chamber end and back out to see if it's shaving or engraving. You could tumble-lube some boolits in LLA and do it again to see if the LLA coating helps stop the shaving.

Gear

Michael J. Spangler
03-25-2012, 04:23 PM
I'm going to do that when I get home. Spent the day at the shop. Managed to bang out about 31 pounds of boolits. Good times

BD
03-25-2012, 07:56 PM
I learned something today. Michael is a much better photographer than I am. It's really, really hard to take a picture of the beginning of the lands inside a barrel with a pocket digital camera. It took 50 shots to come up with the three below, which still do not accurately show the throat in my 5" 1911. Only the center of the picture is shown accurately. The reflection and glare tend to make one land to the side appear abrupt, and the land to the other side appear to be barely there, no matter how I turned the barrel. However, I believe it does generally show the "ramped" appearance of the lands in a barrel that has been properly throated. I throated this barrel about 50,000 rounds ago, and I did not clean it for these photos, I just wiped it off enough to keep my fingers clean. I've fired 300 rounds through it since I last cleaned it. It has never seen a jacketed bullet.
BD

Michael J. Spangler
03-25-2012, 08:03 PM
BD,

nice pics.

its funny my pics were taken with my iPhone in front of a light fixture in my dining room. just goes to show the technology they put into iPhones huh?

i can see exactly what you're talking about now. that makes sense with the shaving. i'm going to go find something to partially slug my bore so i can see if it's shaving lead.

Michael J. Spangler
03-25-2012, 08:24 PM
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll105/MJSpangler/b1764e2d.jpg

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll105/MJSpangler/0bdc046b.jpg

so i tapped 3 in to the rifling a bit, the first two didn't engage the full length of the rifling but the third did.

i did have what seemed to be a ring of lead fall out when pushing a patch through after the second one, and a little piece fall out after the third, this looked more like a wider flat strip, maybe something shaved off from the lands?

sorry for the bad pics, the iPhone sucks at close ups.

geargnasher
03-25-2012, 10:34 PM
BD's pics show exactly what a cast boolit-friendly throat should look like. Comparing to the sharp ledges in yours is night and day.

Any lead that is shaved off in the throat will tend to smear on the barrel, and the heat/pressure will stick it there quite nicely, as you've observed. After driving those slugs in there and getting the lead rings/shavings, you know what's going on and how to fix it.

Gear

runfiverun
03-25-2012, 10:54 PM
that whole check it and measure thing is pretty handy.

Rockchucker
03-26-2012, 06:35 AM
So how does a person fix the throat of a barrel not to shave lead? I would assume the best way would be to take the gun to a gun smith and have him ream the throats out somewhat, having not ever had to do this and it makes perfect sense whats going on, I suspect I'm having the same problem with a gun I own.

HDS
03-26-2012, 07:53 AM
Just a question to the thread starter, are you using a Lee Factory Crimp Die? I only skimmed and I didn't see what you where loading with except Lee was mentioned...

Michael J. Spangler
03-26-2012, 07:55 AM
not a FCD just a regular crimp die, really light crimp. it was too tight at first so i backed it off and the pulled bullets show no deformation and measure out the same size they started at.

badluther
03-26-2012, 08:23 AM
I would be curios to know the answer as well, as I am fighting the same battle currently.
Would fire lapping take care of it?


So how does a person fix the throat of a barrel not to shave lead? I would assume the best way would be to take the gun to a gun smith and have him ream the throats out somewhat, having not ever had to do this and it makes perfect sense whats going on, I suspect I'm having the same problem with a gun I own.

Michael J. Spangler
03-26-2012, 08:50 AM
special reamer. some suggest firing a few thousand rounds of FMJ from what i've read.

Rockchucker
03-26-2012, 09:01 AM
If that's the case, taking the gun to a gunsmith would be a lots cheaper. I've never shot but about a box of factory ammo out of my 1911 and maybe a 1000 cast boolits. I get some leading right at the throat with small silvers down the barrel. Cleaning doesn't take long but I'd like to correct this problem. Sizing and lube doesn't seem to be my problem, however Geargnasher is right on the money I do believe.

Michael J. Spangler
03-26-2012, 09:48 AM
i contacted my gunsmith and he said to try some .452 boolits and let him know how i make out first.

Rockchucker
03-26-2012, 10:33 AM
You're talking about fmj's? .452 cast boolits is what I shoot.

Michael J. Spangler
03-26-2012, 11:57 AM
That person suggested to shoot fmj to smooth things out. Who knows.
Don't believe anything you read/hear and only half of what you see.

Rockchucker
03-26-2012, 12:30 PM
True that

BD
03-26-2012, 02:59 PM
Reaming the throat in a .45 acp barrel is a very easy thing to do. The reamer is about $40 from Brownells, I think mine was made by Dave Manson. All you need is the reamer, a handle and some oil base cutting fluid like "Cool Tool". The reamer is turned by hand from the chamber end. It has a pilot section forward of a very gradual taper cutter. You are removing a very small amount of metal and three or four turns with a light touch will do the trick. You can feel it trim the beginning of the lands. As long as you are gentle, check your progress, and never turn the reamer backwards, there's not much to go wrong. It takes more time to remove the barrel than to ream the throat.
BD

BD
03-26-2012, 03:03 PM
Several thousand rounds of full house jacketed ball will go a long way toward eroding in a throat. It just takes longer, and costs more.

Michael J. Spangler
04-01-2012, 12:26 PM
ok so no luck with both sizes!! i think it really is the sharp shoulder on the rifling. it makes sense. it shaves some lead off and the next round irons it in. so on and so forth.

50 rounds of ,452 ugly mess. clean and then 50 rounds .454 looks just as bad as the 50 rounds of the .453 i started with

i guess i need to ream the throat huh?

geargnasher
04-01-2012, 02:55 PM
It would appear so.

Gear

DrCaveman
04-02-2012, 10:38 PM
Would it be too much to ask for a tutorial on auto- loader throat reaming? I'm sure it exists in the archives but it is always prudent to get the latest methods. I am talking about something other than the store-bought version.

I'll bet almost everyone here could handle the process using basic tools which most of us probably own. Since the problem stated by the OP was echoed by many others (and I am in that camp as well), can we hear about recent throat reaming attempts? Perhaps using a drill, vice, and properly sized bit?

I cant offer any solutions to the original problem, but maybe I can help with the path.

Michael J. Spangler
04-15-2012, 12:12 PM
good suggestions.

i'll be dropping off the 1911 at my gunsmiths next weekend. i'll drop off various size boolits for him to test with also.

i'll send an update when i have more info

asp
11-15-2012, 10:37 AM
I'm a buddy of Mike's and we have nearly identical 1911's, except his has a reamed barrel now and mine is factory. He has no leading issues with .453 or my 452488 pure WW and air cooled for a few weeks sized to .452.

I am pretty sure his .453's were leading with mine and here is a picture after about 100 rounds of my .452's. They shoot accurately, but it would appear as though I have the exact same problem he started with. I might skip all of the troubleshooting he did and go straight to reaming the throat.

http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy79/aspoirier/IMAG0868.jpg

popper
11-15-2012, 10:51 AM
You can size down a few CBs by rolling between 2 barbell weights, just measure after a few rolls.

RG1911
11-21-2012, 05:54 PM
Coming in more than a bit late in the discussion.

I shoot IPSC with a 1911 and 200-gr. cast SWC. Sometimes my own cast boolits, and other times commercial when I'm feeling especially lazy.

Because reliability during a match is more important to me than cutting edge accuracy, I once put 1,000 rounds through my pistol without cleaning, and with no malfunctions. Yes, there was leading, but it didn't affect my scores. So I'm a little more relaxed about leading now.

Cheers,
Richard

herbie
11-21-2012, 06:20 PM
if the boolit doesnt have enough time to obturate to the bore then the gas passes between the bore and bullet causing leading caused from: to hard of a boolit or to much powder.

You could try to lighten the poweder load or soften the boolit. This worked for me. I just found that there is a balance where the boolits stopped allowing the gas to escape around it. Also i like to size my boolits at LEAST ,001 larger than bore.

MtGun44
11-21-2012, 08:02 PM
"I once put 1000 rounds without cleaning. . . ." ;-)

I always was very picky about my 1911s for IPSC. I cleaned them once a year or every
5000 rounds, whether they needed it or not. :bigsmyl2:

I have not seen that much throat leading in any of my 1911s. I get a few streaks
that don't increase over months, from commercial cast with the crayola lube, but
nothing like that stuff. Any possibility of copper under that and/or roughness?

Bill