Boolit too big for chamber? safe?

[mistermog]

Hi guys, another newbie type question here but here goes.

Smith M&P 9mm, lee 125 gr 356 wheel weight boolits.

I sized them to .357 because the muzzle was coming out to .356 with the caliper, however when I loaded up some rounds and tried to chamber them, they get stuck. I have to heman the slide back to get them to eject and two of them pulled the bullet out and shot powder all over my room.

Is there a way to check whether the bullet is too fat (by .001?) or if it might be the shape of the mould that it doesn't like?

[HangFireW8]

Well, it may be more the combination of Cartridge OverAll Length (seating the boolit out too far) and/or a fat nose profile, than the sizing, since the sizing is back on the bearing surface.

What is your C.O.A.L?

Did they go in hard the whole way, or just when almost fully chambered?

Did you verify your boolits really are sized to .356", or is that just what is marked on your sizer die?

Sizing .001" larger is a very good rule of the thumb, but sizing exactly to bore diameter can work well, too. (Or .0001" larger. :-) ) The only caveat is the hazard that some may slip through a little too small. I suspect the real issue is COAL.

Safety issues of oversized boolits include slam-fires and higher pressures.

HF

[oldandslow]

mm, 3.18.12

If you are using the Lee 356-125-2R mold (which is one of my Lee molds) then the problem seems to be the fat ogive compared to FMJ's causing the bullet to touch the lands at normal overall cartridge lengths. The solution seems to be loading the bullet shorter (as long as it is within the recommended length range as too short a load may increase pressures) or buy another mold. My loads with the Lee were so short that I ended up buying another mold with a different (less full ogive) from Accurate Molds and the problem was solved. Good luck.


Best wishes- oldandslow

[mistermog]

oldandslow seems to have hit it i think.

OAL is 1.15 give or take a few .001s. I can use my thumb and push them into the chamber and have to pop them out with a rod in the other end. not too much pressure but after doing this 30 times or so, there was a buildup on the beginning of 2 of the grooves it looked like.

they would almost chamber the whole way, maybe 1/10th of an inch where it got a bit tough.

that is the mold i am using, im going to try to size a couple a bit smaller tomorrow and see if that makes a difference but im not all that optimistic about it.

[mistermog]

Think these would be safe to shoot as is or would that cause any issues?

[turtlezx]

put a boolit in a case with a snug fit but still moveable by hand.
seat it long in a empty case and chamber it.
let the rifling push the boolit back.Remove it from the barrel and mike it
load your rounds .010" shorter than that #

see if this corrects the problem
AOL is just a guide different boolits call for different AOL

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
WE ARE TALKING 9MM HERE.
WITH SMALL CASES LIKE THIS , SMALL CHANGES IN SEATING DEPTH CAN ESCALATE PRESSURES AMAZINGLY.
BETTER TO PULL THEM & START OVER. :Fire::Fire:

[mistermog]

Yeah I went in and tried seating deep until it would chamber, I got to 1.10 and it still wasnt always easy. It didnt drop out like FMJ does. With my loading, quickload is saying at 1.14 I would be at 32,000 psi, which is already a little higher than I want to go so theres no way I would try 1.10. (1.16 is 29,700 so .02 change gives over 2,000 psi).

Tomorrow I might try my 3.55ish sizing die and see what that comes out to feel like.

Still havent seen if it would be ok to shoot these as is, or if its too dangerous to already be hitting the lands while making it tough to chamber (by hand... the slide itself has no problem chambering, but makes it a bit tough to operate by hand again)

[missionary5155]

Good morning
This is why you need to make up a dummy round.. no powder & no primer before loading a batch of "new" to your gun loads. Get the new load cycling kinks ironed out first and right it all down in your loading journal for that gun.
Have done similar blunders, the goal is to not repeat the issue.
Mike in Peru

[mistermog]

Well, hindsight is always 20/20.

[runfiverun]

it's called experience.
we all gotta pay for it one way or another.
inconvenience is a whole lot cheaper than a new gun.
measure inside a fired case, this will tell you about how big around a boolit you can use.
then the oal would be your next issue.
cutting the powder back and seating the boolit deeper will still keep your velocity/pressure in the higher range.
seating deeper isn't the issue keeping the powder in line is.

[mistermog]

well after playing with tihs for a few hours... im not sure if its the bullet or the case mouth getting snagged... i can seat a bullet 1.05 and it can snag but a 1.10 doesnt.

or maybe my sizer just isnt sizing the full bullet?

im just not sure how to figure out whats going on

[HangFireW8]

well after playing with tihs for a few hours... im not sure if its the bullet or the case mouth getting snagged... i can seat a bullet 1.05 and it can snag but a 1.10 doesnt.

or maybe my sizer just isnt sizing the full bullet?

im just not sure how to figure out whats going on

Make up some dummys with different dimensions, use a blade micrometer at every point, and keep trying until you find the dimension that matters.

Also examine under a magnifying glass for contact or engagement marks.

HF

[mistermog]

Using a case gauge, it looks like the bullet needs to be seated deeper for this profile AND theres SOMETHING with my cases. I run a case through the lee turret and after it goes through the bullet seating die (just seat, no crimp) it doesnt fit in the case gauge. After the factory crimp die was tightened, most of them DO chamber in my M&P now, but I need to probably come up with a different load.

Originally 1.15 OAL is too long, I need something about 1.06-1.08 I guess. Not sure about the case issue though, but that might be minor compared to the bullet length.

[jonk]

Two possibilities. One, the bullet is snagging on the rifling. Two, the case is too fat.

Try sliding a sized bullet into a case previously fired from the gun. If it goes in without undue resistance, you're looking at number one. Given that the bullet is pulling out of the case, I would guess that a fat case isn't the culprit anyhow.

Seat deeper. Start low on the powder and work up, be careful. As mentioned seating deeper in the 9mm can lead to pressure issues.

[mistermog]

I think it might be a combination of both. A friend brought over a case gauge and it doesnt seat in those either. A bullet has a mark on it from the step in the gauge so I definitely need to seat them deeper.

However, this brings a secondary question. I ran the original ones through my factory crimp die again after tightening it waaay down and now the 1.15x rounds DO chamber in my M&P fairly easily, not perfectly but very easily. They still don't fit in the gauge though?

What would that mean? I'm really confused and he isn't sure which it is other than making the bullet shorter.

[runfiverun]

the guage is minimum.
guaranteeing that if they go in there, they will fit whatever gun.
you are trying to make your gun work.

i'm fairly certain your fcd squished the boolit,
enough to get in the chamber.
once you measure the fired and unfired- loaded and just sized cases things should become clearer what's happening there.
i'll bet it's length,some nose designs and throats are just that much different.
even if the cast and jaxketed are similar designs thier dimensions usually aren't.

[oldandslow]

mm, 3/19/12

As I posted in #3 I could never get the Lee mold to work at a reasonable COAL and just switched to another mold design. The good news is that the Lee 9mm mold with the fat ogive which wouldn't chamber in my 9mm's works great in all my 38 specials (SW 686, 642 and Ruger SP 101) when loaded as dropped (ie- unsized). I have yet to push it up to 357 magnum velocities to see if it leads or not but at least the mold is not wasted. So if you have any 38 specials use the Lee mold for that and order a different 9mm mold and you'll probably be happier.

best wishes- oldandslow

[405]

Well, hindsight is always 20/20.

For sure you want to prevent 20-20 hindsight after a kaboom!

First, make sure you understand how rimless handgun cartridges are supposed to fit the chamber and how they are supposed to headspace.

Next, make sure all your cases are the same length.

That case/cartridge gauge is telling you something. Also, your barrel/chamber can tell you something. Take the barrel out of the gun. Reload a round (or a dummy if you prefer), with the barrel held vertically, drop the loaded ( or dummy) round into the chamber. By gravity alone, that loaded round should hit the headspace control, case mouth against the end of the chamber, with a clunk sound- NO case sidewall interference and NO bullet hitting lands/leade interference. Also, be cautious about over-crimping that mouth! That is the headspace control.... the length of the case from base to mouth. Over-crimping will change that length and can even crimp the bullet into the chamber throat when fired. A judicious taper crimp is maybe the best for rimless auto loader handgun ammo.

If the bullet (in the loaded round) is too fat to fit the chamber then resize down another .001" and load a dummy to see if it fits the chamber and the bullet DOESN'T hit the leade (lands). If the bullet nose ogive profile is wrong for the gun then use a bullet that is correct. Good luck and no hindsight kabooms.

[mistermog]

oldandslow - yes I saw your post but I would like to find out why this isnt working and if it can be saved, I don't want to dump money into buying different things just yet. :)

I was looking at the lee bullet pictures and the one i have is almost the same as their 124gr tumble lube design. well basically all of their 9mm bullets look like they are designed to be seated pretty deep. I was seating to just above the lube grove pretty much and that still left quite a bit of non tapering bullet sticking out.

I think so too that the FCD was swaging the bullet just enough to chamber, so I will have to loosen that up and see how deep I really need to seat these for them to work. I am thinking of something int he 1.05 - 1.08 range, which seems pretty darn short to me.

I -will- be cutting back the powder charge for this too, definitely! I will load up a few and make sure gravity can chamber them from now on too. If I do figure out an OAL that works tonight, I will share the results. From what I read online there are quite a few people that have to put this bullet in that OAL range for it to work for them.

[Multigunner]

If you expect this to be a continual problem when using cast boolits, you might consider having the throat reamed a bit deeper.

[oldandslow]

mm, 3/20/12

You asked if I could ever get my Lee 356-125-2R mold to work correctly in my 9mm pistols. With the fat ogive I had to load it pretty short to fit the chambers of my 9mm's (Sig 239, CZ Rami, SW 3914). At a COAL of 1.102" it seemed to fit all my chambers. Different reloading manuals list different COAL's- Speer lists a 1.130" length for a 125 grain LRN, Lyman lists a COAL of 1.065" for their 120 grain round nose bullet (mold # 356242) which is even shorter than what I used. So it looks like you could load as short as the Lyman recommendations and see if it chambers and feeds well through your pistols. The shorter rounds seemed to feed and function well with my pistols but I was still a little uncomfortable with them and went to the Accurate mold at my usual COAL.

Of note is that I had to size my bullets through my Lyman 4500 to .356" to get them to work at the shorter COAL. Unsized (as dropped) required an even shorter COAL to work at 1.067", just barely above Lyman's rec of 1.065".

I also tried the Lee tumble lube 9mm bullet- #TL-124-356. It didn't work out for me despite multiple trials with different seating lengths and sizings (that's a whole different story). For me the regular lube groove bullets with a thinner ogive work best in my 9mm's and .45's. The Lee round nose unsized 9mm works well in my 38 specials and the round-nose-flat-point works best in my 44special/magnum.

So do some experimenting (safely) and see what works best for you. Don't give up, solving the problem makes the solution that much better.

best wishes- oldandslow

[looseprojectile]

I don't have a lot of experience with the 9mm. But.
I want to welcome you to Cast Boolits and relate my take on what you describe you are doing.
I load buckets full of 45 auto and have enjoyed loading for the 38 super and the very similar 30 carbine. [headspaces on the case mouth]. I have loaded the 9mm Parabellum for several different guns and remember that some of them didn't look very good but I was able to make them shoot. Some loading dies do not seem to be made to make it easy to make good ammo without manipulating them in some way. Taper crimp is your friend if you don't over do it.
Your barrel and especially the chamber is the deciding factor when loading ammo that fits.
You seem to be trying to keep a secret of what powder and charge you are loading. Without knowing the charge and number of your powder those of us here don't know if you might be on the ragged edge of making something dangerous.
I doubt that your boolit is completely wrong. With the right powder and charge and it fits and functions you are good to go. The 9mm Can be difficult to load.
The 9mm is what I consider to be a high intensity cartridge.
I would suggest that you try to find articles and search for and read posts here on the dificulties of loading the 9mm. Mike Venturino did a treatise on the 9mm.
I would be happy to send you some round nose 9mm boolits that I have used with good results. PM me your address if you want some. We gotta get you up and running.
It can be done and I hope you find joy and fulfillment.

Life is good

[mistermog]

I would like to say as of last night I went in and reset all my seating and crimping dies, and my M&P can chamber anything 1.13" OAL and shorter. My Keltec PF9 however is retarded adn wont take these any higher than 1.085ish... which funny enough is the same as the case gauge.

Well I found an answer, and I'm happy with 1.13 for the M&P. whew!