.45 ACP: "As cast" versus sized

[Jumping Frog]

Alright, pondering a little laziness by loading "as cast" instead of taking the time to size these boolits.

Would like your opinion on any pros/cons, or am I simply over thinking this.

Boolit is the MP clone of the H&G #68 200 gr LSWC, loaded for target shooting (IPDA) at mid range levels (4.0 gr of Clays) using straight wheelweights.

When I size them, they average 0.4524 inches. Never had a problem with this size or load in multiple 1911's.

"As cast" they average about 0.002" bigger. They are also pretty round. These sample measurements are two diameter measurements at 90 degrees to each other (along the mold part line and across the mold part line):

0.4543 - 0.4546 in
0.4536 - 0.4538 in
0.4537 - 0.4539 in
0.4537 - 0.4540 in
0.4540 - 0.4541 in
0.4536 - 0.4542 in
0.4539 - 0.4541 in
0.4538 - 0.4539 in
0.4537 - 0.4540 in
0.4540 - 0.4542 in

Average is 0.4540", maximum is 0.4546".

I measured to the nearest ten thousandth because I was using a micrometer instead of my calipers.

So what do you think I should expect from loading "as cast"? No noticeable difference? Higher pressure? Lower velocity? Sticking boolits? Any change in powder charge? Let's have a little discussion here . . .

[Wolfer]

If my gun would chamber them I would shoot them. My gun won't consistently chamber 452. Sometimes I have to bump the slide to get it to lock.

[35remington]

If you shoot them "as cast" and they normally measure .454", what happens if you get the occasional pour where the handles are not closed?

Then you might have a .456" bullet. After loading, this won't chamber.

Those shooting "as cast" must, like everyone else, gauge their ammo to be sure it chambers.

If oversized, there is less leeway to chamber the round when the chamber is gunked up. For some strange reason many 45 ACP shooters seem to pride themselves in having been afflicted with a "tight chamber" for their custom 1911 as if that really made an accuracy difference in a gun with a loose slide/barrel relationship. This also affects things.

So I can't definitely answer the question of whether the round will fit for you under all the conditions under which you shoot.

I myself size them first so I have fewer issues later. Of course, I still gauge them afterwards, but then my guns always go "bang" when I want them to. So I vote for .452."

If you check beforehand, and quantify just how .454" works in your gun after loading a number of rounds and shooting them under the conditions you shoot under, that is much better information than any opinions you can gather on the internet.

We don't have what you have. You are the best person to answer this question.

But again I'd want more room for error in chamber fit than .454."

Since the primer alone can size the bullet at very low pressure and drive it an inch into the barrel, I expect and receive little difference in velocities due to cast bullet diameter variances assuming sufficient space is present for the brass case to release the bullet. I doubt you will need to reduce the charge provided chamber case wall clearance is adequate.

[Jumping Frog]

Thanks. Well, I made up a hundred tonight and I'll go to the range tomorrow to see how they shoot.

They fit 2 of my 1911's, but the other one seems tight. This may be an experiment that merely confirms to me that continuing to size my boolits is worth my time.

Anyway, so long as nothing goes KA-BOOM, I figure it is worth the experiment.

[mpmarty]

I shoot about 200 45acp rounds a week. I use the LEE clone of the H&G 68 a 200gr semi wad cutter over 5.0 gr of Red Dot. I haven't sized a boolit for 45acp in over ten years and I've never had a problem. The very best sizer is your barrel.

[MtGun44]

We had one guy on here wanting to use the Lee FCD to size the cartridge so he could
avoid sizing the boolits. Sorry, but if you really want to control things, you need to run the
boolits through the sizing die. Pretty much this is the purpose of the sizing step - to make
sure that the boolits are the RIGHT SIZE you need to size them. ;-)

If you can cast really consistently, you CAN get away without sizing, but you have an
essentially uncontrolled process - either measure them all or size them, then you KNOW
what you have.

Bill

[ku4hx]

Depends on the gun and barrel. For my Ruger KP-90 I have to stay at .451" so sizing is generally necessary. For my Glock 30SF with OEM barrel I can go .452" but .451" works well. With my Glock 30SF Lone Wold barrel .452" is sometimes problematic depending on brass brand. I generally stick with .451" for it which also works well.

[TNFrank]

I always like to size my bullets if for no other reason to make sure that they're round. With the cheap Lee molds that I use the bullets sometimes come out a bit out of round so running them through the Lee sizing die makes sure they're nice and round so they'll load and shoot properly.

[Iron Mike Golf]

I try to get molds that drop to the groove diameter +.001 or .002. Then "size" to that same diameter. Example: 9mm gun slugs to .356. Got a .358 mold and size to .358. The boolit kisses the sizer die here and there. If I get resistance during sizing/lubing, that tells me that boolit is oversize, and overweight. It goes into the remelt bin.

To me, "as cast" does not mean it never goes through a sizer. It means I am not intentionally reducing the diameter.

[runfiverun]

go for it.
for the gun thats a bit grumpy work out another system.
i have a couple of guns that get special little runs of ammo just for them, or that one more step in the process to make the ammo work in them.
sometimes it's just using only one kind of brass in that gun.

[Sonnypie]

I size what I cast.
About the time I begin wondering if it is worth while, I hit one that is fat and takes a little more effort to size....
I call those my "Ah-HAH!" bullets. Better to find them in the shop, than on the range.
Or worse, when I'm dealing with an intruder.

Your spread doesn't look that bad.
But what would be far more telling would be pressure reads of actual firings.
I believe that not sizing and making your gun do that job causes variations in performance.
But I'm not the one standing next to you, or shooting your gun. So you could load rocks for all I care.
I reload to be assured I am doing better than factory ammo. Not to just throw lead somewhere down range.

[honus]

Sonnypie is right on. "Better to find them in the shop, than on the range". I run them through a sizer just to be sure. When tumble lubing, I run them one way through my RCBS LUBE-A-MATIC with the bottom punch removed and catch them in drawer below.

[williamwaco]

Sonnypie + 1

If they chamber they will shoot fine and will be safe. I find that around one or two out of 10 will not chamber and I wind up having to pull them.


Sizing is LESS trouble than NOT sizing.


.

[Jumping Frog]

Well, I enjoyed the experiment and it is over.

My SA and my Colt both digested the oversized bullets without any issue. The Para wouldn't chamber them reliably -- 5 of the first 10 rounds wouldn't chamber correctly.

As someone mentioned, it doesn't really take that much time to size them, and I will continue to do so.

I also agree with the comment that it is easier to size the boolits than to sort the loaded cartridges.

[noylj]

Well, I have ONLY been loading and shooting as-cast since about 1980 or a bit earlier.
I ran a whole series of tests in the late '70s and found that in NOT A SINGLE of the guns I had at the time was a sized bullet consistently as accurate or more accurate than my as-cast bullets. At that time, I ordered some bullet sizing dies at the nominal size of my as-cast bullets and never looked back (if you see any of my other posting, you will see that I have consistently so recommended for all new casters and that they should size only if they find a problem with their as-cast bullets).
I then went to pan-lubing for handgun bullets and currently only tumble lube.
Never had any problem with a 0.454" bullet chambering in any .45ACP. If you do, you either have an EXTREMELY tight chamber, EXTREMELY thick case walls, or a problem in your loading set-up.
I have been shooting 0.358" as-cast in all my 9x19s without issue--this came from loading 9x19 in the early '70s when 0.355" jacketed bullets were very rarely found and 0.357" jacketed bullets worked just fine. Only trouble I have had is in a Bronwing Hi-Powder whose barrel, according to Browning was with-in production tolerances, slugged at 0.359x". Apparently, at least at that time, barrels up to 0.362" were in-tolerance.
My .40s accept 0.402" without issue, though my .40s are very consistently 0.400 +0.0005/-0.0000".
If I haven't had a problem in a little over 30 years, then I must be very lucky or...

[Henny]

I tried to get away with not sizing my cast bullets for my 45s. If I didn't size them I'd get an occasional round that wouldn't chamber. I started sizing everything to .452 and all my chambering problems went away.

I noticed when I size bullets, every now and then I'll have one that is harder to push through the sizer. Something about my casting process is off. I've been casting since the mid 70s, you'd think I'd have it down by now! http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif

[fredj338]

I always size, a over size bullet may not always fit in a tight chamber. Besides, I hate tumble or pan lubing.

[MikeS]

If the cartridges chamber freely, then I would say to shoot them, and see if accuracy suffers. If they shoot the same as the sized ones, then I would say that sizing isn't needed. One thing I would do if loading as cast boolits is I would check each one in the guns chamber to make sure they fit. As somebody else said, if you get one or two where the mould didn't close all the way, they might not fit in the gun, and it's better to find out when you're at home at the loading bench, rather than when shooting. This gets even more important if the shooting is either at a match, or for personal defense.

With my semi-auto 45's I've found one of them will chamber almost anything (a Taurus PT1911), and the other is very picky about what it chambers (a Jericho 941). The Jericho has such a short throat (or none at all) that I can't shoot boolits where the nose goes all the way out to the full diameter of the boolit (like the Lyman 452374), but if the boolit has a slight shoulder between the nose and the driving bands (like the H&G #34) it swallows them without a problem.

I tend to size everything, but I have tried not sizing some Lee TL boolit designs without any problems. I could be wrong, but it almost seems like Lee holds their TL moulds to closer tolerances then they do with their conventional lube boolits.

[hedgehorn]

If my gun would chamber them I would shoot them. My gun won't consistently chamber 452. Sometimes I have to bump the slide to get it to lock.

+1 My problem shooting them as cast is that if they are over .4525 I cant get the slide to go all the way into battery on my kimber and my cz97