Fire form brass help

[Ramar]

I believe in the importance of fire forming when in search for accuracy and I don't want to waste my valued boolits and bp for fire forming. The brass is new and I believe the first firings should not be noted with much importance as the loading could only be duplicated if I loaded new brass. I've got a 500 count to fire form and looking for suggestions on how to cheap out in the loading and avoid undue barrel harm, but have good fire formed brass. 45-70

I've used the "search", but didn't find an answer.

TIA.........Ramar

[Circuit Rider]

Ramar, thinking about the same thing. I've got a few hundred rounds of Win. to fire form. Hope someone can give some ideas. CR

[montana_charlie]

I shoot only fireformed brass in my Sharps, but my first concern is matching case length to chamber depth. To accomplish that, I (and Red River Rick) worked up a case stretcher.
It lengthens the case, but leaves it too fat to chamber.

Taking that 'fatness' down incrementally on the first (guinea pig) case results in brass of 'fireformed' dimensions which is also fully as long as the chamber. After that first one, the position of the sizing die is locked and the rest go much faster.

So, my cases are mechanically fireformed, with no expenditure of powder and lead.

If you aren't concerned with case length you may not want to incur the considerable expense of the stretching jig. But, I can give you a rundown on 'fattening' your cases with a fairly simple set of tools.

Interested?

CM

[Hang Fire]

I believe in the importance of fire forming when in search for accuracy and I don't want to waste my valued boolits and bp for fire forming. The brass is new and I believe the first firings should not be noted with much importance as the loading could only be duplicated if I loaded new brass. I've got a 500 count to fire form and looking for suggestions on how to cheap out in the loading and avoid undue barrel harm, but have good fire formed brass. 45-70

I've used the "search", but didn't find an answer.

TIA.........Ramar

Uh, Bullesey and cream of wheat is all I have ever used for fire forming cases.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_nf=1&pq=bullseye+and+cream+of+wheat.+for+fire+forming+r ifle+cartridges&cp=27&gs_id=9z&xhr=t&q=bullseye+and+cream+of+wheat+fire+forming+rifle+c artridges+made+easy+and+fool+proof&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=bullseye+and+cream+of+wheat+fire+forming+rifle+ cartridges+made+easy+and+fool+proof&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=2f95c0d86315f210&biw=960&bih=503

[martinibelgian]

It most certainly is NOT a waste - the main benefit being trigger time, something you can never get enough of. It helps to get to know your rifle really well, and that in turn will help you in your later load development. And those fireforming loads can be pretty accurate too - just a bit expensive to replicate. Bottom line, fireforming most certianly is not time lost, use it to your advantage. I know I do...

[EDG]

Fire forming is much over rated except when blowing out reformed cases such as a .303 Brit to a 6.5 Dutch.
I would just shoot them and note the accuracy. I suspect that if you are not benchresting with a scope you will notice little difference. In some cases (no bad pun intended) they may be more accurate.

[Don McDowell]

I believe in the importance of fire forming when in search for accuracy and I don't want to waste my valued boolits and bp for fire forming. The brass is new and I believe the first firings should not be noted with much importance as the loading could only be duplicated if I loaded new brass. I've got a 500 count to fire form and looking for suggestions on how to cheap out in the loading and avoid undue barrel harm, but have good fire formed brass. 45-70

I've used the "search", but didn't find an answer.

TIA.........Ramar

There's not alot to fireform in a 45-70. Just load your powder wad and bullet and go shoot. Then you'll need to figure out afterward if your rifle does better with the cases resized or not. Depending on how generous the chamber is cut, chances are it'll shoot better with resized cases, so there is a bit of case tension on the bullet.
Unless you're shooting those extra short hornady cases, the length sized or not most likely won't cause you any problems.

[Ramar]

CM,
Thanks for the response. I've never given much thought to the length of the brass (although I have cero cast the chamber) as compared to the OAL of the round with the relationship to the proximity of the lands being the primary concern; that is with fire formed brass of the proper, 'fatness'.

I've followed your posting for some time now and have seen your u-tube work and sir, you have my respect and admiration.

I surmise that you know the importance of the proper casing length as evidenced by your work on the stretching jig; I have yet to be so enlightened and have in the past only checked my brass for a max length. Maybe because I only know how to shorten not lengthen without damage to the brass. I am a rookie and trying to overcome this.

Yes, I would be very much interested in the 'fattening'.


Martinbelgian,
I'm in agreement with you on the trigger time, but when retired you seem to have more time and less money and I do recycle my boolits but the bp kina goes up in smoke......

Ramar

[Ramar]

Don,
Currently, I fire form, drop bp, compress, add a fiber wad, and drop a boolit. No neck tension, no crimp, just boolit in casing then into chamber.

If I'm loading new or sized I have to flare the neck insert boolit and then remove the flare and keep my fingers crossed that the neck tension is consistent.

In my load work up I only vary the powder amount, compression, and oal. One at a time, sorta.

Do you crimp 45-70?

Ramar......

[montana_charlie]

CM,
Yes, I would be very much interested in the 'fattening'.
Okay, first you need a punch of the proper diameter to drive into the case to 'fatten' it. I like hardened drill blanks for this purpose.

If you are using Remington or Bell brass, http://www.mcmaster.com/#3009A143 is hardened M2 steel with a .468" diameter.

If you use Starline http://www.mcmaster.com/#2900A413 is the same thing in a 12mm (.472") diameter.

I don't have a proven suggestion for Winchester brass because it's thin wall seemed too fragile to stretch. So, I never spent time specifically checking it.
If you use Winchester brass, we will need to do some measuring and figuring to come up with a suitable diameter ... maybe 12.1 or 12.2 mm

Anyway, you chuck your drill blank into a half-inch VSR drill and step to the bench grinder.
Put the drill in reverse, place the end of the blank on the tool rest and allow the drill to run slowly. 50 or 100 rpm is fine.
Grip the toolrest between your left thumb and forefinger with your thumb on top of the rest.
This allows the drill blank to spin against your thumbnail, and it will be trying to move away from the stone.
By rocking your thumb forward, you can control feeding the rotating steel into the spinning stone.

What you are trying to do is grind a taper on the end of the rod.
You want a straight taper on a 1 inch length of rod, and it should taper down from full diameter to .390" at the tip. The tip diameter isn't critical, but no smaller than .375".

You have created a 'punch' that will fatten your case when you drive it fully into the case with a plastic mallet. You next problem is pulling it back out of the case ... and it can prove difficult.
So, before you drive it in, let's do another job on it.

Chuck it in that drill again, and go back to the bench grinder.
This time, grind a groove around the rod at a location about a half inch above the mouth of the case. Make it roughly 3/32" deep, and wide enough to accept the jaws of a Crescent wrench.

With a (punch filled) case in your reloading press, and the ram raised to get that groove above the die socket, you can grip the punch with the Crescent wrench and pull the ram down ... extracting the punch from the case.

Just be sure to keep your punch clean, and lightly lubed as you go through a batch of cases.

Your case is now too fat to be chambered in your rifle.
Back your full length resizing die out of the press about five or six turns.
Run the case in, pull it out, and try to chamber it.

If it won't go, turn the sizing die one full turn into the press and try again.

When you get close, you may want to turn the die in by a half or quarter turn.
But when you get down to that level, you should also be expanding your case mouth before each try in the chamber.

You want the case to just seat fully in the chamber with the mouth also expanded to 'fireformed' dimension.

When you are satisfied with the adjustment of the sizing die you can lock it at that depth. Then you can run through all of your cases in one phase, and expand all of the mouths in a separate phase.

So ... once everything is set up, your procedure goes like this ...

Drive the punch
Extract the punch
Size the case
Expand the mouth.

You end up with 'fireformed' cases, and you can do it at night or when it's raining.

One more time, be sure to keep your punch clean, and lightly lubed as you go through a batch of virgin brass.
But, of course, your mother probably taught you that years ago ... no?

CM

[John Boy]

I've got a 500 count to fire form and looking for suggestions on how to cheap out in the loading and avoid undue barrel harm, but have good fire formed brass. 45-70Ramar, I never fire form new 45-70 brass. But I do anneal each case before they are loaded

But if you so desire:
* Load each case with 10-12grs of Bullseye or Red Dot
* Tightly crimp a round ball into each case
* Go to the range, shoot them at 50yds and have fun

Barrel Harm? ZERO

[Don McDowell]

Ramar , no I don't apply any more crimp than is necessary to take the flare out of the case and allow easy chambering.

[.22-10-45]

Hello, years ago, I was fireforming .219 Donaldson Wasp brass..this was made from .30-30 WCf. brass. the groups were some of the smallest I had ever gotten with that rifle.

[Ramar]

CM,
Greatly appreciated and will do. I have an old South Bend lathe so the punch is very doable. I really like your idea of the punch and maybe I'll put some knurling on the handle end or a drill thru for a "T" handle or both.
Kina sounds "Sticky ish". Thanks Again.......


John Boy,
Thanks. I'm using Stairline and presently only anneal before the first firing. I like your fire forming with a round ball; they are cheap, but maybe I could use another mold? Growing up I spent my summers in Surf City and Blue Anchor.


Don,
Thank you for giving up one of you secrets.

Ramar.........

[montana_charlie]

I really like your idea of the punch and maybe I'll put some knurling on the handle end or a drill thru for a "T" handle or both.
Kina sounds "Sticky ish". Thanks Again.......
I had a brain fart when I was telling you how deep to grind that groove. 3/32" is what I intended. (I went up and edited the original post, too.)

Yes, a T-handle will work, or anything that gives you a firm grip on the steel.

I tried chucking the rod in my drill press, anchoring the brass case on the table, and raising the quill to pull the punch.
It worked, but the chuck jaws didn't hold real well on that highly polished and very hard surface.

CM