.357 Project

[Marlin Junky]

I've got a Handi-Rifle that needs to go back to the factory for repair (SB2-135 in .35 Whelen) and might as well get another barrel for it.

I was wondering if anyone has any related experience in the following areas:

I was thinking about getting a .357 Mag barrel (I believe it has a 16" twist) and a Lyman 358430 and trying to develop a quite load that would flatten coyotes at up to about 50 yards (I'd be calling them into the backyard) by pushing said boolit, cast soft, into the 700 to 800 fps range. I've got lots of Scot 453 and I probably even some AA#2. Does this sound doable with very low report and adequate accuracy to do the job? I would think the power and penetration would be sufficient. Wouldn't a 200 grain boolit that hits a coyote going about 700 fps give pretty much 100% penetration on broadside shots? What would I need to do to suppress the noise? Would I be better off working with the 30-30 than the .357? I would think the 30-30 would take more powder because of the larger combustion chamber and therefore produce a louder report. I'm assuming there's not going to be any expansion at 600 to 700 fps so the bigger .357 boolit would probably kill better.

Any input would be appreciated.

MJ

[MT Gianni]

If it doesn't work for you there will always be a market for the bbl. I believe that it should but have no experience with silent loads. If the 358430 doesn't work try your Saeco 352 at 50 yds. Gianni.

[Marlin Junky]

If the 358430 doesn't work try your Saeco 352 at 50 yds. Gianni.

I'd probably try something else if 358430 doesn't work 'cause 352 is kinda nose heavy, on the long side (1.04") and wears a gas check; though, it would be fun to see how 352 would shoot from the .357 case and a 22" barrel.

Would I be better off with a wadcutter or semi-wadcutter? I don't own any .35 cal plain base molds yet and also find SAECO 351 intriguing... too many molds, not enough time or money!

Maybe if there's someone out there who already owns a .357 Handi-Rifle, they can tell me what kind of throat I'll be dealing with; i.e., if the .357 H-R's have long throats, 358430 might be just about right.

MJ

[leftiye]

My 45-70 handi rifle has no throat at all, no leade either. Not sure about other calibers. My .357 Max. has about a1/8'' throat (rechambered .357 mag.). With a pistol bullet, that's almost too much (they're hanging on by the bottom driving band).

[PPpastordon]

Marlin Junky;
I would go for the Keith design boolit; IIRC, .358429. The Keith designs have a great reputation for good accuracy, even at very low velocity.
Years ago a friend and I worked up some low sound loads by using a fast powder and seating the bullet deeper and deeper into the case until we actually reduced the powder charge but still had the same velocity. We were looking for around, but not over 1,000 FPS. Our best success was with Bullseye.
I do not remember the loads, but they would be of little value to you as they were in a .45 Colt.
Yes; a 200 grain .357 bullet will go through a coyote at 700 fps - probably from any direction of entry. However, I would probably go with a larger caliber; the .44 or .45. You can have the same noise level as with the .357, but a bigger, more effective coyote zapper. Lyman's .429421 should be a great choice.

[Bass Ackward]

Well, the bigger the bore, the more of a pooom instead of a crack will be heard. A 357 hurts my ears much more than a 45 Colt with the same load level and barrel length.

But you can always tape a balloon over the muzzle and .... muffle that a little too.

[twotrees]

I have been shooting the Lyman 115 gr 357 wad cutter in both pistols and my Rossi lever for over 25 years. That bullet over 2 gr BullsEye is a great 50 ft target load. In the rifle ( mine feeds!) it's not as loud as a 22 lr. It works great on squirrels but for yotes I might want to make it a bit louder for more of an anchor on them.

Watch the double charges (!).

Lee 140 gr HP works great in all my 38's/357's too.

Good Shooting,

TwoTrees

[Marlin Junky]

I have been shooting the Lyman 115 gr 357 wad cutter in both pistols and my Rossi lever for over 25 years. That bullet over 2 gr BullsEye is a great 50 ft target load.

TwoTrees,

Have you ever chronographed this load from a rifle?


Intuitively, I would think the bigger bore (44 vs. 35), would need more powder to get the same velocity and therefore would make more noise.

I'm thinking a head shot with a lighter .357 boolit might be the ticket but I'll need to wait for the gun to return so I can see what kind of chamber/bullet combo will give the best accuracy. Maybe a WC or SWC at about 600 fps will do the trick. Maybe I can find something to try in the .35 Rem while I'm waiting for the H-R to return.

MJ

[Blammer]

Lil' gun and 200 gr Trun cone bullets do very well out of my Win 94 357 mag rifle with 24" brl... :D

[Leftoverdj]

No need to get tricky on this one. Ordinary .38 Special WC Match loads will do the trick. My Handi rechambered to .357 Max steadily shoots 50 yard groups of 1" to 1 1/4", and my neighbors can't hear it from inside their house 150 yards away.

If your barrel won't approach that as it comes from the factory, just have it rethroated or rechamber it to Max. That long jump does not harm accuracy nearly as much as the sometimes crappy factory throats do.

[Marlin Junky]

I just bought molds for Lyman 358665 and the .360 Lee round ball.

Thank you for the input.

MJ

[MtJerry]

Ditto what leftoverdj said. My handi re-chambered to Max is the same.

4.5gr of 231 and a Lyman 358495 is a tack-driver.

[Jerry Lester]

Hollow base WC's like the Hornady's turned backwards, loaded in 38 cases, and fired from a rifle do tremendous damage to groundhogs innerds. I haven't tried them on a coyote, but up to 50 yards it should be deadly with a chest shot. The sound of normal to lower velocity 38's in my Marlin 1894C is comparable to a 22 short, so if I was looking for something like you're describing, I'd definately try that route.

I used to use this combo on groundhogs up to about 75 yrds on some heavily populated areas that I needed to keep the noise levels down on. They knocked the heck out of big groundhogs, and the "POP" when they were hit was pretty loud which I always got a kick out of! LOL!

[OBXPilgrim]

I've got a .357 Mag Handi-Rifle. I've hardly fired it since I bought it due to some medical problems (had neck surgery last year). I don't think you'll have to worry about a short throat like the .45-70s (they seem to be consistently short on .45-70).

The factory cut chamber that mine has is long enough to accept a .360 Dan Wesson case & still have .025" stretch clearance.

I've got a dummy-round seated to length based on the .360-.360 180PB Group Buy (jeff223- honcho'd) and just off the lands. It measures 1.927" - Yes, close to357 Maximum O.A.L. If you look at the photo of the boolit in post #4 in the below thread, the only the 1st groove is in the .360DW case.

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=7992

It should easily handle a 200gr boolit.

I wish I had some load data to pass along, I should be good to go on recoil soon.

[Marlin Junky]

I've got a .357 Mag Handi-Rifle. I've hardly fired it since I bought it due to some medical problems (had neck surgery last year). I don't think you'll have to worry about a short throat like the .45-70s (they seem to be consistently short on .45-70).

The factory cut chamber that mine has is long enough to accept a .360 Dan Wesson case & still have .025" stretch clearance.

I've got a dummy-round seated to length based on the .360-.360 180PB Group Buy (jeff223- honcho'd) and just off the lands. It measures 1.927" - Yes, close to357 Maximum O.A.L. If you look at the photo of the boolit in post #4 in the below thread, the only the 1st groove is in the .360DW case.

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=7992

It should easily handle a 200gr boolit.

I wish I had some load data to pass along, I should be good to go on recoil soon.

OBXPilgrim,

Thanks for the input. I found 100 virgin SuperMag cases in my stash last night. Maybe I'll use my .357 brass for round ball shooting after fire-forming and the SuperMag brass for more serious stuff.

MJ

[Marlin Junky]

I tried 3 grains of Scot 453 behind a 69 grain round ball from my .35-336A last night in my garage and even though it has pretty good penetration for possums and raccoons (my fruit tree's nemeses), it's too loud for suburbia. Time to build a supressor.

MJ

[MT Gianni]

It seems that Paco Kelly's findings on the subject were a heavy bullet for caliber sans gas check for a quiet load. Gianni

[Leftoverdj]

I tried 3 grains of Scot 453 behind a 69 grain round ball from my .35-336A last night in my garage and even though it has pretty good penetration for possums and raccoons (my fruit tree's nemeses), it's too loud for suburbia. Time to build a supressor.

MJ

Naw, time to try a 148 grain WC. Three grains of any fast pistol powder will put that RB supersonic.

An old poacher who had managed to stay out of jail once told me, "It's the second shot that gets you in trouble." His belief was that that a first shot at any distance did not really register as anything but a distant noise. The second shot is identifiable because people are listening for it. He had a point, and it holds even more so for a .38 WC load in a rifle because that does not even sound like a shot.

Another acquaintance cleaned out the feral cats in a trailer park with subsonic ammo in 29" barreled .22. He brought that rifle out to my place for testing and sighting in, and it was amazing. A shot was not as loud as a handclap.

[MtJerry]

I shoot 4.5gr of 231 over a Lyman 358594 (101gr WC) and it is scary accurate out to 50 yards.

I shoot this load in Max and Mag cases with not change in accuracy.

[Ed Barrett]

If you want something that's nearly noiseless, try a compressed load of surplus 5010 and the heavest bullet you can find. in 357, 44, and 45LC it sounds like a 22 short. It's also very dirty but in a single shot it should be OK. You can duplex the load to make it shoot cleaner but that brings up the noise too.

[uscra112]

Remember all those "Whisper" cartridges that were developed by J.D.Jones some years ago? They were intended for suppressed weapons, so I'd guess they worked hard on loading to minimize muzzle blast. Tiny case, big bullet. 300 Whisper was a .221 Rem case necked up to .308, and two subsonic loads I see published for a 165 grain copper-patched are 12.6 grains of A-2015BR, and 10.3 grains of A-1680. If that tells us anything.

[OBXPilgrim]

Just tried some AA-1680 powder in the .360 DW case using the aforementioned 180gr GB bullet. Lower level loads were very quiet.

I put my son behind the trigger on some 4.0gr Unique loads in 38 SPL cases. With the first cap pop, his head spin around like he know something wasn't right. Sounded about like our .22 cal pellet gun. I had him look through the barrel & showed him the hole in the target to prove it was ok. Accuracy was nil on these (75-80 yards), but it's going to be fun once it's dialed in.

[Marlin Junky]

I received my .357 Handi Rifle barrel today... boy is it heavy! I wish I had a lathe to turn it down a bit 'cause the darn thing is heavier than the .35 Whelen barrel. Nevertheless, it should be fun to experiment with some unusual loads. The darn chamber is approximately 1.43" long and I'm wondering whether I should buy some .360DW brass or rent a .357 SuperMag reamer! The throat has a nice gentle angle to it that should be great for cast boolits, so I'll probably order some .360DW brass before doing any chamber mod's.

MJ

[Blammer]

you should be able to drop something out to about 100 yards with that 357.

I like Little gun and 200 gr Trun Cone lead bullets.

[HEAD0001]

I have figured out some good gallery loads for my 45-70. I shoot them out of an 1885. You can hear the hammer drop-they are so quiet. I have shot the load at 30 and 40 yards. It shoots a three inch group at 40 yards. I am loading 4 grains of Red Dot(dacron filler) under a .454 caliber ball.

I feel confident that I could add a little powder and a 405 grain bullet to give enough power to kill a coyote, and still keep the load very quiet. Most of the research I found seemed to show that the heavier the bullet, and the longer the barrel, the quieter the load. Tom.