Do I need a case expander?

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Still trying to figure out what I need for my 30-06 cast load so I can get it all in one order. Will the regular die flare the case enough or do I need a case expander too?

[1Shirt]

Yep, if you want to load and shoot cast without shaving lead!
1Shirt!

[Jailer]

Lyman M die is your friend.

[stubshaft]

I tried years ago to get by without an "M" die...I was foolish.

You can't begin to get any type of accuracy without it.

[462]

Yep, the M-die is the best.

There is only one cartridge that I don't have an M-die for -- yet -- so, I use a Lee universal flaring die. It pains me to see the boolits not properly aligned with, and secure in the case mouth.

[MtGun44]

Lee universal case flare die will work well for any cartridge.

Bill

[mooman76]

Rifle dies do not expand the case mouths like pistol dies do, or at least none that I know of.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Cool, thanks for helping out a newbie!

[williamwaco]

The M die is what you need.
You will not be happy with a universal flaring die.

In the two die rifle sets. The expander is on the decappig rod and it expands only enough to hold a jacketed bullet. It does not flare ( bell ) at all.

The M die has a two step expander. It expands the inside of the neck in two steps and opens up the neck enough to hold the larger diameter cast bullets correctly. It will also flare the mouth if you adjust it to. Mouth flaring is harmful to the case mouth and should be held to the absolute minimum that will allow you to seat your bullet without shaving lead from the sides of the bullet.


AND

The lyman M die is almost universal.
The .30 caliber die will work with any .30 caliber cartridge.



.

[Nobade]

The Lee collet neck sizer is also a very valuable tool for cast boolit shooters! With that you can control the neck tension so you don't need an expander die, plus no lube needed and cases don't stretch.

[462]

Rifle dies do not expand the case mouths like pistol dies do, or at least none that I know of.

Lyman's 2012 catalogue shows three-die rifle sets that include an M-die.



"The .30 caliber die will work with any .30 caliber cartridge."

The "31 R" expander plug will expand the case mouth a bit more, so that it will easily accept the usual, fat-for-caliber boolits. The "30 R" plug, which comes standard with a .30-caliber die, is best suited for jacketed bullets.

[Larry Gibson]

If you are sizing the cast bullets at .309 or .310 then the .30 M die or the Lee Universal die is good. If sizing .311 or larger then get the .31 M die. As also mentioned with the Lee collet die or a bushing die you can size to fit you cast bullet exactly and many times don't need to flare the case mouth.

Larry Gibson

[Silvercreek Farmer]

So if I get the Lee Deluxe Rifle Die set (that includes the collet die), I'll be good to go, right?

[Atakawow]

So if I get the Lee Deluxe Rifle Die set (that includes the collet die), I'll be good to go, right?

No. You would still need the Lyman M die or the Lee Universal Expanding die.

[Denny303]

i remember in my teens just starting out casting my first bullets for the 30-30, and the judicious use of a taper punch carefully tapped with a wooden mallet to bell the case mouth was my ticket to rollin my first cast rounds lol

[nicholst55]

i remember in my teens just starting out casting my first bullets for the 30-30, and the judicious use of a taper punch carefully tapped with a wooden mallet to bell the case mouth was my ticket to rollin my first cast rounds lol

I installed a larger expander (for .303 British) in my .30-30 dies, and lightly flared the case mouth with a starter punch, usually with hand pressure IIRC. It worked well enough! Now I use an 'M' die.

[Agent1187]

i remember in my teens just starting out casting my first bullets for the 30-30, and the judicious use of a taper punch carefully tapped with a wooden mallet to bell the case mouth was my ticket to rollin my first cast rounds lol

Some people are still doing that to this day.
One can only buy so much tooling at a time...

[stubshaft]

Some people are still doing that to this day.
One can only buy so much tooling at a time...

I did basically the same thing but because the neck itself wasn't expanded properly, the case neck was sizing the boolits down. That is why I never bothered with just flaring the neck ala Lee Universal.

Test it for yourself. Size boolit and measure it, load it a case that has only been flared. Use a hammer type puller and remove the boolit and measure it again.

[DonMountain]

I have been casting and loading boolits for years, and just belling the case mouths with the case mouth expander from a larger die set. Is there any advantage in buying the Lyman M dies to do the same thing? For instance, for a 30-06 casing, I run it through the regular resizing die, then take an 8mm Mauser die and adjust it in the press so the slightly larger expander plug just enters the case mouth of the 30-06 casing to flare it slightly. And I use my extensive collection of rifle and pistol die expanders to slightly flair the case mouths of other casings. Is it worth my investment in the Lyman M die to do the same thing?

[Larry Gibson]

Don

Just depends on how much "adjusting" and jerry rigging you want to do. Many find it much more convenient to have an M die for each cartridge, adjusted once and then left alone. Others have and M die for each caliber (that's me for the most part) and then just adjust the M - die for the cartridge used (very easy to readjust the M die, especially with a caliper). Most all straight walled cases come with a M die of some sort (expander die) so it's just a matter of using some thing for bottle necked cases. What you use is up to you and how precise you want to be.

No, M dies are not "necessary" but they do make loading cast bullets easier and better. They also make loading jacketed bullets easier and better in many instances.

Larry Gibson

[happyret65]

Living in that "good tar heel bbq country", just ask anyone "is a pigs butt pork?". I like the RCBS. by using the same die body, it's cheaper to change the inside than the whole die.

[chboats]

I see a lot of reference to the Lyman M die but have never seen anyone refer to the RCBS expander dies. I like the RCBS version because it appears to be more flexible. In 30/31 caliber there are expanders available in .308, .309, .310, and .311.
The two links below are for the complete dies and replacement expanders.

edit: I guess happy beat me to it.

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/department.asp?dept=RELOADING&dept2=LEAD+BULLET+CASTING&dept3=EXPANDING+DIES&sortItem=Newest

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/department.asp?dept=RELOADING&dept2=DIE+PARTS+%26+ACC.&dept3=EXPANDER+PLUG&sortItem=Newest

Carl

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Living in that "good tar heel bbq country"

You know it! I even grow my own hogs, I figure I need to make my own ammo too!

[462]

"I like the RCBS. by using the same die body, it's cheaper to change the inside than the whole die."

Individual M-die expander plugs are available directly from Lyman. The RCBS plugs are lacking the second step, which is unique to an M-die.

[MT Gianni]

Lee universal case flare die will work well for any cartridge.

Bill

I had terrible issues with the Lee case expander on 223 & 243 calibers. Milimeters difference between enough flare and dropping bullets all the way through the case neck. If you want to shoot anything smaller than the 30 cal I would go with the M die.

[MT Gianni]

i remember in my teens just starting out casting my first bullets for the 30-30, and the judicious use of a taper punch carefully tapped with a wooden mallet to bell the case mouth was my ticket to rollin my first cast rounds lol

When I started I used a 35 cal jacketed bullet for the 30 calibers and a 44 jacketed for the 35's to tap in as expanders. Tooling is nice when you can afford it.

[prs]

I have some RCBS and some M dies. I like the M die design better de t othe second step. I set the depth of the die so that 1/2 to 2/3 of the gas check is down in that "Dutchman's seat" or second step. That sets the boolit up perfectly aligned with case for seating.

prs

[williamwaco]

The Lee collet neck sizer is also a very valuable tool for cast boolit shooters! With that you can control the neck tension so you don't need an expander die, plus no lube needed and cases don't stretch.



ditto.

Several makers make these collet dies. They are a great idea but I have never used them. I use the FL sizer to do my neck sizing.

.

[DLCTEX]

I like the Lee collet neck sizer die so that my brass gets worked the minimum amount possible. I also have the M die and some plugs for most of the calibers I cast for as it's cheaper to change just the plug for each bore size than to buy a collet die for each caliber. Some calibers I can go both ways. Just using the Lee universal flaring die I had some of the softer alloy boolits be sized down when seating. Whatever works to load boolits without squeezing the careful sizing I have done in to smaller chunks of lead.

[prs]

ditto.

I use the FL sizer to do my neck sizing.

.

Can ya explain how you I can do that wtih bottle neck cases? Do I need to alter the die? I already do that with my straight walled cases form fired in a particular gun.

prs

[462]

Can ya explain how you I can do that wtih bottle neck cases? Do I need to alter the die? I already do that with my straight walled cases form fired in a particular gun.

prs

The instructions that came with the die set will explain the process.

[blackthorn]

"The instructions that came with the die set will explain the process."

Or run a search for Partial Full Length Resizing or PFLR on this site. This process has been covered in detail many, many times.

[DLCTEX]

Chamfering the inside of a case mouth will let a boolit seat without needing as much flare to avoid shaving lead. Again, working the brass the minimum amount necessary to save that brass. Only needs doing once after trimming.

[doctorggg]

I personally find the Lyman M die an invaluable tool when reloading cast boolits.